Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools

[AmonGwareth]

Okay, let's get down to business and discuss a hot-button topic. First, a disclaimer. With this post we want to open up a dialogue to discuss how to go about changing Dragons. We haven't determined a course of action nor have we made any decisions yet. Nothing said here is set in stone or even a fully coherent, implementable (or perhaps even wise) idea.

We welcome your thoughts, feedback, suggestions, and criticisms on these ideas.

Assumptions: Dragons have some serious drawbacks that limit their gameplay potential:

1. Dragons cannot easily be balanced because of the way they are currently implemented
2. School composition cannot be changed because so many abilities are quested, rather than acquired from a school
3. Only one adventure school limits Dragons to level 100 (rating 100)
4. Little growth potential beyond the Rites
   
5. Little, if any, potential for specialization
   
6. Not a lot of replayability

Revamping would do what for Dragons:

1. Give Dragons more growth potential (beyond rating 100)
2. Extend the gameplay life of a Dragon (You can reach 100 Juvenile, but to get new schools you have to ascend and so on)
3. Create more variety of gameplay opportunities among Dragon players (Crowd Control, Melee, DPS, Healer, etc.

How would this be done?
Quested Abilities
Quests offering abilities would not be available for Dragons undertaking this path. Some exceptions might be made to allow further customization by players of their Dragon. Primal Mastery, Tooth & Claw Mastery, Accurate Breath, etc. Recommend doing this with passive abilities only, if at all. None of these should be required to ascend to Adult or Ancient.

Juveniles
The Dragon juvenile school would be a Jack-of-All encompassing a little healing, spellcasting, crowd control, and melee combat. None would be ultra powerful, but would give players a baseline of play similar to leveling one of the bipedal base schools (Warrior, Mage, Cleric, and Scout). To ascend to Adult, players would need to reach level 100 Juvenile.

Adults
Once they ascended, Adult Dragons could choose from one of two new schools that would let them focus on being either a Spellcaster or a Melee fighter: Soldier or Adept. These would contain more powerful abilities but would be more focused on the Dragon’s chosen path. Unlike a biped, Dragons would not be able to join both schools. To ascend to Ancient, players would need to reach level 100 in an Adult school.

Ancients
After their second ascension, Ancient Dragons would be given a choice to choose from based upon their Adult school choice.

• Soldiers:
  
  
  • Conquerer (Tank)
    
  • Dominator (Crowd Control)
    
  
  
• Adepts:
  
  
  • Primalist (DPS)
    
  • Protector (Healer).

How would this be done to avoid impacting current Dragon players?
To avoid impacting existing Dragon players, this new school system would only be available to NEW Dragon characters. When this system was implemented the old schools would no longer be available to newly created characters. Updates to trainers and Rites would likely need to be made to accommodate the changes and to support a dual system.

[Parrr]

This is refreshing to see. The points you raise-

Assumptions: Dragons have some serious drawbacks that limit their gameplay potential:

1. Dragons cannot easily be balanced because of the way they are currently implemented
2. School composition cannot be changed because so many abilities are quested, rather than acquired from a school
3. Only one adventure school limits Dragons to level 100 (rating 100)
4. Little growth potential beyond the Rites
   
5. Little, if any, potential for specialization
   
6. Not a lot of replayability

-are very true; and while a lot of players are content with the current dragon schools, the problems you listed are still real.

I have always wanted to see a sort of specialization for dragons. Currently, the Dragon Adventurer school is really straight-forward, and easy for beginners, but stale. After trying bipeds, I have found that their school and progression system is far more advanced, more difficult but ultimately, much more rewarding. Those who prefer playing bipeds will certainly find this idea appealing. Additionally, this brings dragon gameplay closer to that of bipeds, and gives some sense of consistency.

If/when this is implemented, I would be absolutely sure that there will be people that are opposed to the change, as is the norm with any community. However, the fact that old characters remain the same will allow the more conservative bunch to keep what they are used to. Those who do like the change will be able to enjoy it.

This change will also bring a lot of attention to Istaria, raise the amount of players, and would make the forum go crazy. An update this big is definitely something I would like to see.

+1

[Azath]

YES
I would love to this kind of system implemented

So some questions

"Reach lv100 Juvenile"
So i got severeal questions here
1. Is lv100 juvenile going to be like 50 of the current system? (in terms of strength/skill)
2. If the answer is no, will the rop be changed to reflect a larger difficulty?

I don't see flaws with adult set up, so another question or two based on ancient set up.
1. Will AROP be changed to reflect school, rather than faction (i.e. get fangs of fury for soldier, primal rage (or whatever it's called) as an adept)?
2. Will we be able to switch between the two ancient classes/have both simualtaneously?

Also: I don't feel like deleting my ancients to get such a system. Can you make it so we can join this system if it gets implemented? So we don't have to do it all over again (espeically order people, where this would cause a MAJOR difference in rp). But not forced into it, so we have a choice whether we want go through the fuss of it or not.

[Parrr]

this would cause a MAJOR difference in rp).

I could imagine that the dev team will make some sort of backstory to accompany the update, like they do with others. Something that would incorporate the school difference with an RP solution. Some story like a "New Order of dragon schools" or some historical figure that arrives to teach the new hatchlings the "new way".

[Azath]

I could imagine that the dev team will make some sort of backstory to accompany the update, like they do with others. Something that would incorporate the school difference with an RP solution. Some story like a "New Order of dragon schools" or some historical figure that arrives to teach the new hatchlings the "new way".

I meant - if remaking our chars was the only way to get it then exaclty 200% of the rping order population wanting this wouldn't do it because remaking their chars might have a major rp difference to their actual characters that they may not tolerate.
E.g. Azath is supposed to be a badass ancient, master of primal energies and she's had all that past time of sadness and hapiness and research and- oh wait no she's a hatchling.

I'm all for new lore, but not ^ that.

I don't even care how much fuss i'd have to go through to set it up, i have some ancinets who direly need caster schools even if it's painful to put them in it, but i will not remake them and waste the effort i put into raising them.

[AmonGwareth]

I don't see flaws with adult set up, so another question or two based on ancient set up.
1. Will AROP be changed to reflect school, rather than faction (i.e. get fangs of fury for soldier, primal rage (or whatever it's called) as an adept)?

Have not yet even considered this. Probably very premature to do so.

2. Will we be able to switch between the two ancient classes/have both simualtaneously?

My initial thought is no, but I'm open to discussion. Though I'd rather it not be just like the biped system.

Also: I don't feel like deleting my ancients to get such a system. Can you make it so we can join this system if it gets implemented? So we don't have to do it all over again (espeically order people, where this would cause a MAJOR difference in rp). But not forced into it, so we have a choice whether we want go through the fuss of it or not.

No, absolutely not. There is pretty much no way to do this for existing without being an all or nothing type of change. To take advantage of it, the only way I see it working is for a new character to be created to use it.

[Guaran]

Some quick thoughts so far:

I don't like that you say "it will not be like bipeds" meaning you cannot switch schools. Multiclassing is the ONLY reason to play a biped. Dragons should be able to multiclass, and master lowbie versions of say the healer abilities and use them in the tank school, like peds do.

The whole "force me down this path" is nothing more than the shortsighted way the factions currently work. No thanks.

Give dragons Multiclassing or leave them alone.


More schools, great

Specialization, great

Leveling to 100 to be able to ascend doesn't really seem out of line. The way it works now it often feels like a 5 year old being told "ok you can drive now".

The juvenile has access to all the abilities, presumably so players can learn enough about all of them to be able to decide a specialization after reaching adult. This sounds like the current dragon adventure school. Why not allow existing dragons to either choose to stay as-is, or pick a specialization, starting about where the new adults would in the proposed plan? Again, I must point out that Dragons should be able to multiclass and switch schools. No forced path stuff, even as Adults.

I like the intent of the original idea, but whole new schools, scrapping the old, seems very drastic and dangerous. The existing Dragon Adventurer school evolved over about half a decade, and the base build had a huge dev team compared to the resources Istaria has today. Forgive me for being incredibly skeptical that something of this magnitude could be pulled off without massively breaking Dragons. For several years most likely. Before it maybe got ironed out and working. Maybe. There's existing broken things, that still are not fixed (see recycle modifier on Fangs of Fury crystal/arop headscale for just one example), that have been reported more than once. And you want to attempt building 2 whole new schools from scratch and ditch the old one? All sorts of new abilities would need made or altered, but existing bugged ones can't seem to be fixed? I've reached max level on Skepticism.

Find a way to add it to existing dragons, and leave in the old Dragon Adventurer school, with the ability to switch back to it and gain back all the existing abilities. That way if(when) something gets horribly broken and stays that way for years, the game isn't totally broke in the meantime. I don't think Istaria could survive if dragons went through a 2 or 3 year "all buggered up" period. There has to be an exit strategy for all this new stuff, and the potential it will bring for things to go horribly wrong, or I have to say No Thanks, Leave it alone. That exit strategy, that fallback plan, is the Dragon Adventurer school as it currently is. Keep it, and let me switch at will to DRAG, or DSOLdier, or DADEpt as I prefer. If you cannot find a way to do that, just leave it well enough alone.


**************************
Thoughts about Dragons in General:
Why do they have the same health as bipeds? usually less without tons of training points in Health. Your supposed Tank class would need to have about 4x the current base health of a Dragon. The Adept class should have more too (at a lower multiplier). Even existing Dragons with the old school should have more. Same argument applies to Armor, Strength, Power stat's too (in varied multipliers, that could be different depending on the school). Dex could be lower than bipeds, but it in fact already is. Focus could stay as-is. These things would all have to be considered if something all new happens for dragon schools. Dragons are going to be more powerful than a modest multiclassed biped, no matter what you do, or they aren't really "Dragons", just a biped school, with biped health levels, without the ability to multiclass, and a big damage melee ability to give them some semblance of the power Dragons should have, that can fly.

At least Dragons have 2 rites of passage, many quests and lore. Playing a Dragon in Istaria is like a second game compared to playing a biped. And there's nothing really wrong with that except you run into the difficulty in having challenging monsters for both. But you will still have that if you remake the dragon schools. Dev's don't like Gold Rage, chances are it would be gone in the new schools. Then dragons would be weak, essentially a battlemage but with less spells, unless something else that gives them more power is added. Then the monster balance issues comes back anyway. So I really hope that this desire to change dragons is being proposed with the intent of giving dragons more to do, interesting choices, and not as an excuse to nerf dragons back to being a biped level everything (stats health dps etc.) just so monsters are easier to balance.

[hallucin8]

...changing Dragons.

Boy it's a tough one, isn't it? So far we have 2 for, and 2 against... not a big sample, but I can see it literally dividing the community. I actually like the school concepts, but not being able to switch, why you no switch!? That's not multi-classing...

You raised 6 drawbacks, but the 3 positive results you raise don't really address them. The only increased re playability comes in the form of having to level 4 new dragons to experience all the schools.

Would this be at all possible:
In the proposal you present 2 adult choices, Soldier and Adept. Offer a 3rd, the current dragon model. If that means adding in all the current abilities as level rewards instead of quests, so be it (but keep the quests in anyway, just no ability rewards). If you need to make some of the current abilities DRAGON only, so be it.

Allow a single character to take all classes; the current model and all the new dragon classes. Obviously when you're solder or it's prestige classes, you'll only have access to masterable abilities from other schools as per bi-pedal multi-classing.

I think it's clear I don't understand why you wouldn't want Dragons to be able to multi-class just like bi-peds; that seems to be the better way to address your concerns in my opinion.

[Chasing]

Disappointing. I figured this thread might take a different path than previous ones, but it has reached this point in under a day. We have had discussions about how to address Dragons previously on this very forum. They went nowhere because it would involve a lot of change, pain, frustration and agony on the part of current players.

There is no way around that, assuming we could even remove quested abilities (which we cannot without sql scripts manually run). I just don't feel that its a viable option. At least with the proposed system in this thread the kinks could be worked out without impacting existing players.

Think this is the show stopper here, asking the existing player base to reject their current characters and create brand new ones is too much of an impact.........

I agree with the proposal for the new schools, just not how its currently planned.

I honestly don't understand why the new schools can't be built separately, tested for balance, and then integrated as advancement of the Dragon adventurer (SQL can be re-written, the simulation can be re-written etc, just takes time)

At the time of intergration then weaken/nerf drag adventurer ready for the new schools.

[AmonGwareth]

I honestly don't understand why the new schools can't be built separately, tested for balance, and then integrated as advancement of the Dragon adventurer (SQL can be re-written, the simulation can be re-written etc, just takes time)

The issue is not tech. Obviously data can be altered as can code. The issue is how many years of discussing Dragon schools only to have quite a few players get quite upset about any potential change to the status quo of Dragons. That is quite honestly what motivated me to propose what I did. Again, as I stated, I have yet to see anything that indicates any acceptance of any sort of change to Dragons. So we're back to square one in my opinion.

[Krinharth]

agree that force players trash ther chars - wrong.
who wants new system? where they ask for that?

[Tzael]

who wants new system? where they ask for that?

As it stands right now two thirds of the active Chaos playerbase are dragons, this has held steady as a statistic for the last few weeks and probably longer. Due to dragons being one of Istaria's unique appeals and the high concentration of dragon players it does make sense to invest developer time into expanding the dragon race options within the game.

I too am of the belief that we should build on top of what is already there, not replace it with a new system. One of the golden rules of an MMO production team is to avoid taking anything away from players, and certainly from Amon's suggestions it would seem that they have no intentions of taking anything away from existing dragons. The sticking point on this occasion appears to be an inability for existing dragons to take advantage of new features that may be on the horizons (excuse the pun!). In an MMO environment it is important to cater to both the new and existing playerbase, and on this occasion it is easy to understand why existing dragon players may feel left out by the proposals.

I firmly believe that a collaborative discussion will yield solutions that do not impose heavily on developer resources whilst at the same time offer new versatility that will dramatically improve the dragon experience for all players, new and old alike.

[Chasing]

The issue is how many years of discussing Dragon schools only to have quite a few players get quite upset about any potential change to the status quo of Dragons. That is quite honestly what motivated me to propose what I did. Again, as I stated, I have yet to see anything that indicates any acceptance of any sort of change to Dragons. So we're back to square one in my opinion.

In order to balance the existing Dragon Adventurer school, what would need to be taken away from it?
(I know this has been mentioned before, but can we get some specifics onto this thread)

If the existing dragon adventurer school was changed to allow further multiclassing, what would Dragons gain in the long run?
(IE Would they end up with better characters, or would the current dragon adventurer end up spread across 4/5 schools)

My thinking is if people understood the full impacts, then we might have a more balanced debate
(Default reaction is Change = EEK = Nerfs = Rage Quit)

[Cooolios]

I'm all for change. I'd love to have a reason to come back and play again personally.

Sooooo...

Is it possible to leave the current Dragon classes as they are without changing anything. Bring in new classes that require level 100(or 50 or so, would depend on the classes being added) and just change the name of the ADV class from DRAG to something else???? I mean the abilities in question ALL specify DRAG as a requirement anyway. So I'm thinking that with new classes this should not be a problem what so ever. The only issue would be what abilities from the DRAG class to incorporate into the new ones.

EX. Lvl 100 DRAG wants to become more warrior like so DGWR(dragon warrior). Any leveled abilities/spells to be used would have to have DGWR on them.
Current player base would keep their dragons and/or move on.

[AmonGwareth]

Is it possible to leave the current Dragon classes as they are without changing anything. Bring in new classes that require level 100(or 50 or so, would depend on the classes being added) and just change the name of the ADV class from DRAG to something else???? I mean the abilities in question ALL specify DRAG as a requirement anyway. So I'm thinking that with new classes this should not be a problem what so ever. The only issue would be what abilities from the DRAG class to incorporate into the new ones.

I don't feel that it is. Any school would need changes to it when adding more on top. And, the real problem is the quested abilities. They are not tied to a school so any changes to Dragon Adventurer cannot alter those. That is the real sticking point with Dragons...

[AryaStrongClaw]

I have read many of the posts, and have seen more against than for the idea.... I have played for 4 to 5 years, I enjoy Istaria very much. I would also like to see some changes made to the dragons. Yes I RP, but I only do so with a select few, and those select few very well may be willing to start a hatching or juvenile as you call it, Amon and continue as before. I don't see how a rebirth can change a RP, for I, myself, have a dragon that I reborn and worked it into her RP. I am also willing to try this new system, for it seem interesting to me, I am a player who loves a challenge...I do not EVER wish to be the BEST OF THE BEST, but I strive to make my characters good at what THEY do, Arya for instance is mainly a RP dragon, and my Pearl is also a main RP dragon but she is the one I do the most hunting, fighting and battle with. If I try out this new system and enjoy it, I would be willing to give my Arya and Pearl a rebirth, they would still have their mates, and their life story will continue from that point. What I dislike is the fact over the years I have read and read about all these want more of this, more of that, stronger here, weaker there....And when a solution is actually spoke about it gets shot down like a duck in season....If one wants to try something new, there very well may be a sacrifice in that....is that so terrible that you all will tell the Dev's no on something that could be a benefit in the log run? Another thing, Amon has spoke several times that this WOULD NOT effect the current dragons, so what is so bad about that? If you don't want the change, keep your Chars as they are and keep on going in the path you wish...You all can not expect them to change and alter the current codes for the dragons already made, if you don't like how your current char is then give them a rebirth and implement the new system into them...how hard is that to choose from? There are many who love how their dragons are now, just as I do, but I am willing to test it out and if I find it can make my game play now better, then I will change over, I do not have a gripe one about starting a new character, there is always a slot open in my list and if not, it is not hard to put one in archive to free a slot to try the new system, if it is not liked then delete the one made and pull the original out of archive

[Arzel Rashemi]

Amon has spoke several times that this WOULD NOT effect the current dragons, so what is so bad about that? If you don't want the change, keep your Chars as they are and keep on going in the path you wish...You all can not expect them to change and alter the current codes for the dragons already made, if you don't like how your current char is then give them a rebirth and implement the new system into them...how hard is that to choose from?

From what I'm reading and heard here that isn't true. Most of those I that I know RP, or I have RP'd with, have posted on this thread and would not be willing to start a new juvenile or hatchling if we found our current characters were obsolete.

Yes Amon said it would not affect current dragons, but just because something exists in this game and is not touched, does not mean it is not made obsolete. Would current dragons still get tweaks, new abilities, and updates to them? If not, then it is obsolete, and that could make doing or partaking in new content a problem.

What has not been answered is how our current dragons would balance out against the dragons in this new proposed system. If the current dragons are left untouched, would they be weaker, stronger, or balanced to dragons in the proposed system? I think most people's major point of contention is this issue. Until that concern of balance between DRAG and the new specialist schools is answered, at least for myself, I can not change my view or even make a proper and fair consideration of the proposal. In that case, saying no is the safest thing.

How hard is it to create new dragons? When you have six or seven characters and are near your character limit, making new characters is quite a daunting task and a monumental amount of work to do all over again. It is something that the majority of us do not want to do, for whatever our different reasons may be. I know that there are those who don't want to have to make new characters because they would have to choose between deleting/archiving a character(s) they have put hard work into, or are attached to, and they don't want to do that. For myself, I have had dragon character(s) who have been played as long as this game has been around. And if I'm being blunt, I'm not really too fond of the idea or possibility that my oldest and dearest characters could be consigned to the obsolete bin. I am quite attached to them. I want to be able to hunt with them, use them for new content, and do more than just bring them out for RP.

I don't think any one is adverse to change, and they do want some change in dragons and some new content for them, but what they don't want is to have to rebuild everything they have built for years from scratch.

[Racktor]

What has not been answered is how our current dragons would balance out against the dragons in this new proposed system. If the current dragons are left untouched, would they be weaker, stronger, or balanced to dragons in the proposed system? I think most people's major point of contention is this issue. Until that concern of balance between DRAG and the new specialist schools is answered, at least for myself, I can not change my view or even make a proper and fair consideration of the proposal. In that case, saying no is the safest thing.

This.

Also, to the people replying saying most people don't want a change, that isn't entirely true. Most seem to be just scoping it out and asking questions before they jump on a revamp bandwagon. In my opinion, there are ways to refine the current dragons to be better; they aren't broken, why 'fix' them? Expanding is the best idea in my opinion and there have been viable suggestions on how to do so without murdering the system or running into the problems Amon's mentioned.

When you have six or seven characters and are near your character limit, making new characters is quite a daunting task and a monumental amount of work to do all over again.

Also seconding this, I have 13/14 characters, 12 of which are dragons - 5 ancients, 1 lvl 80 adult, and 1 lvl 40-something hatchling to name the ones with progress. Can't say it's easy for me to make a new character these days unless I want to throw them in archives, especially where I'm still unsure of how it works.

[AryaStrongClaw]

Ok, I think I am understanding a bit more what our dear Amon is looking for here, gang. I think, and if I am wrong please correct me... From what I have been reading is they are wanting ideas of things to add into the current content. The Quested abilities are difficult to change. Like here is a example, Dragons reach is a quested ability, where as if we want to differentiate the difference between, like say, the Soldiers, and the Adepts, which is how the player themselves wish to play their char, if it be all out tank, or a healer/mainly magic user...Here is a suggestion, how about Boons...Tanks use more Strength, Dex, and Tooth and Claw, where as one who wishes to be a magic user, they will use more Primal and Focus....there may be another, though it is kinda slipping my mind this early ;) So this idea can be added within the current quest chain or through another NPC....Ok, the Boons I speak of, if one wants to be a Tank then they can take the quest line that offers a boon for Strength, Dex...and what not, they can be a repeatable at certain lvls, like the current quested abilities, and can very well be a passive ability that will add to above said stats. Same goes for the Adept side, those who wish to be Magic users, get a boon/boons to add to their Power, Focus and Primal, each lvl of said boon would give a bit more to the stat...Just a idea

[AmonGwareth]

Had a talk with the tech team and here's a potential option. We could provide a way for existing Dragons to choose (as an option, not a requirement) to "convert" their existing characters to the new system. This process would simply remove whatever quested abilities we removed as part of the change and set your school to the first tier of the new system at equal level. So, if you were level 100 Dragon Adventurer you would become a level 100 Juvenile. Note, that is the proposed school name, not the race. So you'd still be an Ancient Dragon as far as race. This would let you keep your character, equipment, etc while converting to use the new school system.

Regarding specific abilities, I will work on some rough ideas to post here. Not sure how soon, but I'll begin working on it. As I said before, however, I welcome suggestions and in fact encourage your participation as we're a small enough community that I feel we all should have input into this important process.