Talk to the Team: Dragon Schools: New Schools

[meepsa]

True, I was thinking entire class additions/revamps.

Not to start the entire gold rage argument again, but I just want to add that, alongside the GR nerf, the damage on some attacks were upped - Bite comes to mind - and others were made AoEs; Tail Whip and Galewind. Timers were also linked between some abilities. (I can't remember which exactly tho)

( Btw the ability you're thinking of is Claw Strike, not Attack. :) )

Bite and Drain strike had their damage upped, but were linked (on a 5 second link if you do bite first, not sure what the link is if you do drain strike, all I remember is that it's not worth it doing drain strike first)
Tail whip and Galewind were made AoE.
Galewind, Ravage...and I think another few abilities recieved hoard costs (minimal, barely an impact)
Gold Rage was changed to always hit but have a 1 minute cooldown (which I will still fight people over whether it should be called a nerf)
Claw strike was added which is a copy-paste of the power attack that most biped classes get (a variation of).

Aside from that...I don't think much else was changed. (just giving some clarity regarding a majority of the changes.)

[Shur]

Some changes did happen, they nerfed Gold Rage and added 1 new attack called Claw Attack. They also added improved t6 dragon scales, which are really nice. Although the long standing objectives as far as dev's were concerned were achieved (nerfing gold rage), no new classes got added. Imho the changes wound up being detrimental, but YMMV. Most have adapted.

That is.... disappointing. What's almost worse is that it's unsurprising. I keep waiting for this game to give me a reason to play again, but every time I think an improvement is on the way, it either gets dropped, or turns out to add nothing significant to day-to-day gameplay (looking at you, Crystalshaper...)

oh well.

[Guaran]

Well, to be fair to Crystalshaper, the crafted damage crystals are the biggest buff to both Dragon and Biped melee combat to ever happen. + 35% is pretty significant (for the t6).

[Tilithia]

Well, to be fair to Crystalshaper, the crafted damage crystals are the biggest buff to both Dragon and Biped melee combat to ever happen. + 35% is pretty significant (for the t6).

I was just thinking,what if resistance armor crystals made by crystalshapers would reduce specific damage type by 35% (t6) ? instead of giving 300 slash resist, incoming slash damage 65% but incoming crush damage 135% ?

[Terao]

I was just thinking,what if resistance armor crystals made by crystalshapers would reduce specific damage type by 35% (t6) ? instead of giving 300 slash resist, incoming slash damage 65% but incoming crush damage 135% ?

There are already enough damage reducing items: Crest of Blackhammer Tech Kit, Ceremonial Shield/Scale, Reklar's Shield/Scale. Please don't make the game easier as it is. Except of the epic bosses and some of T6 creatures there is no real challenge left.

[ArchDemon]

There are already enough damage reducing items: Crest of Blackhammer Tech Kit, Ceremonial Shield/Scale, Reklar's Shield/Scale. Please don't make the game easier as it is. Except of the epic bosses and some of T6 creatures there is no real challenge left.

until the buff the monsters.

Also i think you devs should name the classes Conqueror and primalist as seen in the game. feels more dragony to me.

That is.... disappointing. What's almost worse is that it's unsurprising. I keep waiting for this game to give me a reason to play again, but every time I think an improvement is on the way, it either gets dropped, or turns out to add nothing significant to day-to-day gameplay (looking at you, Crystalshaper...)

oh well.

They buffed dragons massively ehen they nerfed GR its a great buff.. i love it.

[Tilithia]

There is Conqueror and Primalist,in chiconis battlefield and I think near gate to Helians tomb.

[meepsa]

when I was in the cross-server istaria skype chat (not trying to stir up anything as I know people's opinion on that were mixed) I do remember primalist and conquerer actually being potentials for dragon multi-classing, but it's more that the topic would rise every now and then, and it would die out or move to something else just as quickly.

[Shur]

They buffed dragons massively ehen they nerfed GR its a great buff.. i love it.

I'm not looking for a buff, I'm looking for something that introduces new gameplay options. All a buff does is let me kill things faster.

[meepsa]

I'm not looking for a buff, I'm looking for something that introduces new gameplay options. All a buff does is let me kill things faster.

the thing is, to introduce new gameplay options, and this has been stated by devs over and over, dragons need to be balanced better. heck, with how the system is currently handled multi-classing for dragons would be hellish. Back when NEO schools were on blight (I think those were meant to have a mana-system, however the UI elements for it didn't exist, so testing was hardly possible, and there were no solid plans to implement them fully), dragons were able to join them, and what stood out? the fact that quested abilities stayed at their max, instead of working like mastered abilities (where you have to be twice the level of acquirement to use them in other classes).

from personal experience, I can say that leveling NEO druid and monk was incredibly fast when the old GR was still in, making it fairly obvious how broken of an ability it is, and how annoying/boring dragon multi-classing could potentially be, New gameplay options can be introduced just fine yeah...making them work properly and not be half-broken because of the system already in place...yeah.

the overal buffing of dragons and the (very much needed) changes to their 15 seconds kill button are at the very least a step in the right direction.

[Guaran]

the thing is, to introduce new gameplay options, and this has been stated by devs over and over, dragons need to be balanced better...

They already did their rebalancing with the GR nerf. Any ideas calling for yet more nerfs for whatever reason (schools, multiclassing, etc.) will get a vehement protest from me (and many others).

Leave Dragons alone, enough damage has been done.

Dragons =! Bipeds. Yet bipeds have the same amount of health that an Ancient Dragon does. Dragons should have 10k or more health, look how much bigger they are than bipeds.

Dragons =! Bipeds. Yet even before the Gold Rage nerf, multiclassed bipeds were far better at burst damage. It's arguable that it's more useful in pretty much every situation except random mob hunting. And that was one thing dragons could do better thats' since been nerfed.

Dragons =! Bipeds. Yet Bipeds have more Strength, Power, Focus, Dexterity. Typical biped has 1000 of each with slight multiclassing of Warrior, Monk, Mage, Healer, and can swap 2 of those schools for craft schools. What stats do Dragons get from their 3 craft schools? Zilch.

This is only meant to point out that nerf's are simply 100% misguided, regardless of whoever proposes them. This is the game we have, 2 games in 1. A Dragon game, and a Biped game. All of the above inequalities are the result of that combination, in effort to make mobs "balanced for all". I don't envy a dev's job at coming up with some way to "balance" the mobs for all. But nerfing Dragons is simply not the way. Find another.

If new classes for Dragons were going to be a way in which my Dragon could regain or exceed the DPS he had prior to the GR nerf, I might be all for it. But I just do not believe that was ever the dev's intentions regarding Dragons. The last nerf hurt the games' population (imho). Let's not do that again.

I've tried giving suggestions regarding new combat options for Dragons, that required giving up GR to use buffs for more powerful spells, since the players behind the original new dragon school ideas wanted to be spellcasters. Implementable without nerfing anyone who chooses not to play as a caster, and doesn't "force" a player to pick a combat style that is irreversible. I would happily entertain ideas in that vein (not forced on players, not a permanent combat style).

from personal experience, I can say that leveling NEO druid and monk was incredibly fast when the old GR was still in, making it fairly obvious how broken of an ability it is...

On Blight, exp is doubled, costs are all halved. It's not a fair representation of play on the Live shards. The NEO schools were easy to level for bipeds too, and aren't anywhere close to being a proper school whatsoever.

[ArchDemon]

They already did their rebalancing with the GR nerf. Any ideas calling for yet more nerfs for whatever reason (schools, multiclassing, etc.) will get a vehement protest from me (and many others).

Leave Dragons alone, enough damage has been done.

Dragons =! Bipeds. Yet bipeds have the same amount of health that an Ancient Dragon does. Dragons should have 10k or more health, look how much bigger they are than bipeds.

Dragons =! Bipeds. Yet even before the Gold Rage nerf, multiclassed bipeds were far better at burst damage. It's arguable that it's more useful in pretty much every situation except random mob hunting. And that was one thing dragons could do better thats' since been nerfed.

Dragons =! Bipeds. Yet Bipeds have more Strength, Power, Focus, Dexterity. Typical biped has 1000 of each with slight multiclassing of Warrior, Monk, Mage, Healer, and can swap 2 of those schools for craft schools. What stats do Dragons get from their 3 craft schools? Zilch.

This is only meant to point out that nerf's are simply 100% misguided, regardless of whoever proposes them. This is the game we have, 2 games in 1. A Dragon game, and a Biped game. All of the above inequalities are the result of that combination, in effort to make mobs "balanced for all". I don't envy a dev's job at coming up with some way to "balance" the mobs for all. But nerfing Dragons is simply not the way. Find another.

If new classes for Dragons were going to be a way in which my Dragon could regain or exceed the DPS he had prior to the GR nerf, I might be all for it. But I just do not believe that was ever the dev's intentions regarding Dragons. The last nerf hurt the games' population (imho). Let's not do that again.

I've tried giving suggestions regarding new combat options for Dragons, that required giving up GR to use buffs for more powerful spells, since the players behind the original new dragon school ideas wanted to be spellcasters. Implementable without nerfing anyone who chooses not to play as a caster, and doesn't "force" a player to pick a combat style that is irreversible. I would happily entertain ideas in that vein (not forced on players, not a permanent combat style).



On Blight, exp is doubled, costs are all halved. It's not a fair representation of play on the Live shards. The NEO schools were easy to level for bipeds too, and aren't anywhere close to being a proper school whatsoever.

Umm the GR nerf was more of a rebalanced buff. I perfer hitting all my strikes rather them all missing GR 7 became an ultimate ability. and thats what i like about it..

By classes i was meaning by you pick a class when you join a fraction like if you joined the Lunus fraction your class becomes a Conqueror and if you join the heliens you become a Primalist Sticking to old dragon stuff just showing theres a Class when your a juvive you get to sample two of the classes then you make the choice of ether conqueror or primalist then your stats adjust to the fraction. Course i was expecting dragons to have 10k health as a conqueror as an ancient.. While stats stay the same as everything else till then.. while a primalist would be around 6k health while boosting there primalist skills to make up for there lack of health You know make distink differences then the other when you join a fraction.. not talking anout multiclassing.. And if multi bes a thing Make it optional and it wont hurt your class/stats you have. Like Conqueror becomes Warlord or say Donimator GRcan get to GR X and such While primalist becomes Something else like Enchanter or Mythicalist Boosting there magic tenthfold. and such.. To add on to the end game if it includes more tougher enemies without powercreep of weapons or armor the better. Without nerfing stats. This is a PVE game not a PVP so nerfs are not that needed only pvpers think nerfs are needed and this games pvp is optional its not NEEDED If bipeds need a buff in something maybe a boost to there EXP so they can multiclass better im willing to see them be happy :) Thats the one thing bipeds need a great exp boost to exp. And killing monsters get exp normally and such. thus is why i sugjested EXP armor they can unlock and buy at there first level 100 classed character while the armor in tiers boost exp gaining by 1.5% each armor piece while only being 100s each piece. at a special connie. We dragons get what we need and bipeds get what they need. Everyones happy :)

Conqueror gets Strength 200, T&C 200, & dex 200 while an ancient primalist gets 200 power, focus, and 200 Primal. Even if it means making the void harder to compinsate for the buffs so its more rewarding. like Merc has 500k health or 1million health as the other void bosses have 250k to 500k health. Things that making the things your given worth the AROP you know? I dont see dragons and bipeds equels i see them completely different pieces of gameplay. and should be treated as such. not the same or your risking alot as in your risking to treat the gameplay to be the same. each race should be 100% different not the same dynamic gameplay. Not copy pasting Skins

[Guaran]

Classes in themselves I don't directly have an issue with, but I wouldn't want classes tied to the faction choices. It would also need to be something the player could swap back and forth between if they so chose.

[ArchDemon]

Classes in themselves I don't directly have an issue with, but I wouldn't want classes tied to the faction choices. It would also need to be something the player could swap back and forth between if they so chose.

Then your taking out of the dragon lore of the two fractions That is why i went lunus because id be sacrficing primal. i dont want primal i want brute force. if im given the option to be helien whats the point in the rop?! Id rather have extentions for the fraction types rather then given all to me because i feel cheated if i was given that. I perfer to stay a mass killing lunus you offer me a choice to be helien ill rip your face off with my blood talon.

[Guaran]

The lore only states minor differences, and in no way says all Helians are spellcasters, only that they are more "Scholarly" which means knowledge in general, which includes a bit of spell knowledge. The +20 Primal skill from RoP is sufficient to satisfy that.

Lunus are more "aggressive" and distrust the biped races, the +20 tooth&claw from RoP is sufficient to satisfy that. Nowhere does it say all Lunus are claw warriors.

Dev's made the mistake of cementing more factions differences when ARoP was put in, specifically the Arop crystal. Which I why multiple times I've suggested giving both sets of skills/stats to both crystals. That way the Ancient dragon can change to another combat style without loosing that benefit. Combat differentiation can come from elsewhere such as the classes, if ever implemented. But as it is now, we can specialize our combat with training points. A Lunus who has done arop should be able to become a spellcaster and have the primal rage crystal benefits as well, if they want to.

[Racktor]

I just want to chime in for the lore here and while I, personally, am a huge supporter of cementing differences between factions (not getting into it here), there are indeed overlaps in the lore.

I can't remember who says it, but I believe a Lunus refers to one of the best fighters in dragon history as being a Helian. I really wish I remember where this was from, but I know someone says it somewhere... I quoted it to my friends in curiousity. Perhaps from one of the ability quests?

Anyway, lore-wise it's implied helians can be fighters in tooth and claw, as well. If I ever find the quote again, I'll share it.

[Tilithia]

I remember something like that too...I want to say Xerix or Semeneth or Brysmendrik said that.

[Guaran]

There's something about a great Lunus Healer too, just can't recall where. All these support my point that factions have little to nothing to do with combat (playstyle). There shouldn't be any forced combat differences based on the political factions.

[SuHuz]

Here's my idea, also inspired by others' ideas already mentionned in this topic:

New Schools:
-Conqueror (CONQ)
-Primalist (PRIM)
-Balanced Dragon (BDRA)


Requirements:
-Ancient Dragon (ARoP requirements)
-Every ability quests done
-Primal Cast quest done


Effects:

-Instead of adding a new school, it would replace the DRAG school and directly go to Lv 100.


Abilities:

(What is mentionned is what is modified.)

-CONQ:

-> Path of the Conqueror:
+100 Strenght
+100 Dexterity
+100 T&C

-> Improved Breath of Lightning:
Damage: 200-250
Dispell strenght: 600
Hoard cost: 150

-> Determination VII
+220 Strenght
+200 attack skill (chance to hit)

Unlocked quests:

-> Gold Rage VIII
Cooldown: 55 secs
Hoard cost: 3750

-> Gold Rage IX
Cooldown: 50 secs
Hoard cost: 4250

-> Gold Rage X
Cooldown: 45 secs
Hoard cost: 5000

-> T&C Lord (Improved T&C Master)
+10 Damage (delay adjusted)


-PRIM:

-> Path of the Primalist:
+100 Power
+100 Focus
+100 Primal

-> Improved Breath of Ice:
Damage: 150-175
Effect Ice Breath: Incoming flame damage does 150% of normal damage / Modifies delay by 150%
Hoard cost: 150

-> Primal Roar VII:
+300 Power
+200 attack skill (chance to hit)

Unlocked quests:

-> Improved Primal Cast (=Primalist Gold Rage)
Cooldown: 2:30

-> Primal Lord (Improved Primal Master)
+10 damage (delay adjusted)


BDRA:

-> Path of the Balanced:
+100 Health
+50 Strenght
+50 Dexterity
+50 Power
+50 Focus

-> Improved Breath of Acid:
Damage: 175-225
Effect: Extra damage 125-175 (DoT)

-> Determination VI:
+200 Strenght
+180 attack skill (chance to hit)

-> Primal Roar VI:
+275 Power
+180 attack skill (chance to hit)

-> Refreshing Breeze VI:
Cooldown: 2:00
Hoard Cost: 200
Effect: Heals 300-350 (HoT)

Unlocked quest:

-> Healing Master (Improved Healing Expert)
Increase heals by 10-40


Common ability:

-> Dragon's Gift VI
+110 Primal
+110 Magic Evasion
+110 Evasion
+110 T&C


New items:

-> Formula: Master Dragon Claw Repair
OR
-> Formula: Master Lesser Gem-Tipped Dragon Claws

-> Spiked Ruby Tipped Dragon Claw:
Damage: 61-84
+50 Strenght
+50 T&C
Requirement: CONQ

-> Spiked Sapphire Tipped Dragon Claw:
Damage: 61-84
+50 Power
+50 Primal
Requirement: PRIM

-> Spiked Diamond Tipped Dragon Claw:
Damage: 61-84
+25 Strenght
+25 T&C
+25 Power
+25 Primal
Requirement: BDRA

2 or 3 tech slots for each.


As a consequence, every existing Dragon items would take the requirement DRAG/CONQ/PRIM/BDRA.


What do you think ? Is it good idea ? What would you add, change or delete to make it better ?

[Tilithia]

I like it very much. On primal roar,you forgot it currecntly makes spells do 104% damage,yours could have maybe 105,106?
On improved primal cast,instead of lower cd id change to add one more attack (like multicast IV)