Returning Players

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

Hi,

I received a newsletter asking players to return to Istaria.
However i have to tell you, as much as i liked the world of Istaria, the engine is simply too outdated to play in.
Because most of the gameplay mechanics are a grind, and too timeconsuming, and the world is not pleasant to walk around in because of it looks so outdated, its simply not tempting to come back.

I would love to see an engine update for this game.
Also non-grindy entertaining game mechanics that make you enjoy a game if you only have an hour or so spare time in the evening.

Why are the devs not converting this game into a new engine i wonder?
Use for example Unity game engine and most aspects of the game can be imported, also this ensures your engine will stay up-to-date.
In fact i would be up myself to contribute to a project like this.

Best regards,
Thangorodrim.

[AmonGwareth]

Appreciate the post. Nearly every MMO is grindy (Dailies, repeated Instances or Raids), but we understand what you mean. Modern MMOs contain a lot of features that work to mask that grind and make it less obvious.

There is only so much we can do without redoing a lot of the core game concepts, but we have recognized for a while now that adding quest content and interesting regions can go a long ways to improving things. We've revamped Tier 1 (Lesser Aradoth), T2 (Dalimond/Chiconis), and other areas. We've added dungeons (Dralnok's Doom, Helian's Tomb, Ashlander's Tomb) as well as other areas of interest for T6 (Barrier Vale, Eastern Outpost, Island of Ice, etc).

We've got more revamps in the works... Island of Fire, Western Deadlands, Tier 3 (Tazoon), and New Trismus.

We've added a new school, Crystalshaper, revamped others (Confectioner, Scholar, etc) and made a lot of tweaks and changes to adventure school abilities to reduce the timer and the boredom of using abilities once every 30-60 minutes (most are no more than 5 minutes now).

But, ultimately, some aspects will always be grindy (i.e. crafting, construction) here and in any game.

Why are the devs not converting this game into a new engine i wonder?
Use for example Unity game engine and most aspects of the game can be imported, also this ensures your engine will stay up-to-date.

This unfortunately is not true. Unity 3D is a powerful engine and does include a lot of community support, add-ons, and plug-ins. But to create a true 3D MMORPG game client a heck of a lot of work would have to be done that would not be able to simply be imported or purchased. For example, Istaria uses definition and entity files that are a custom format so something would have to be written to read, interpret, and make use of them. Yes, the assets could be directly imported, but still quite a bit of work would have to be done to make use of them in Unity3D.

Another aspect that would be problematic is the terrain system. Istaria's terrain is saved on the server, while Unity 3D out of the box requires terrain to be generated on the client. So a system would have to be written to handle that, which would introduce further issues with pathing, plots, etc.

Finally, you end up with numerous aspects of the game such as the UI, communications layer, tutorial system, and much more that would have to be written from scratch.

However, we are working on upgrading some graphical aspects of the game. We currently have a full upgrade of the weapon textures that will soon be in testing on Blight. We resized the textures to take advantage of memory that modern computers and graphics cards now have (as opposed to what they had in 2003).

Teaser: And we're looking at other things to improve the appearance of such as.... trees.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

Appreciate the post. Nearly every MMO is grindy (Dailies, repeated Instances or Raids), but we understand what you mean. Modern MMOs contain a lot of features that work to mask that grind and make it less obvious.

There is only so much we can do without redoing a lot of the core game concepts, but we have recognized for a while now that adding quest content and interesting regions can go a long ways to improving things. We've revamped Tier 1 (Lesser Aradoth), T2 (Dalimond/Chiconis), and other areas. We've added dungeons (Dralnok's Doom, Helian's Tomb, Ashlander's Tomb) as well as other areas of interest for T6 (Barrier Vale, Eastern Outpost, Island of Ice, etc).

We've got more revamps in the works... Island of Fire, Western Deadlands, Tier 3 (Tazoon), and New Trismus.

We've added a new school, Crystalshaper, revamped others (Confectioner, Scholar, etc) and made a lot of tweaks and changes to adventure school abilities to reduce the timer and the boredom of using abilities once every 30-60 minutes (most are no more than 5 minutes now).

But, ultimately, some aspects will always be grindy (i.e. crafting, construction) here and in any game.



This unfortunately is not true. Unity 3D is a powerful engine and does include a lot of community support, add-ons, and plug-ins. But to create a true 3D MMORPG game client a heck of a lot of work would have to be done that would not be able to simply be imported or purchased. For example, Istaria uses definition and entity files that are a custom format so something would have to be written to read, interpret, and make use of them. Yes, the assets could be directly imported, but still quite a bit of work would have to be done to make use of them in Unity3D.

Another aspect that would be problematic is the terrain system. Istaria's terrain is saved on the server, while Unity 3D out of the box requires terrain to be generated on the client. So a system would have to be written to handle that, which would introduce further issues with pathing, plots, etc.

Finally, you end up with numerous aspects of the game such as the UI, communications layer, tutorial system, and much more that would have to be written from scratch.

However, we are working on upgrading some graphical aspects of the game. We currently have a full upgrade of the weapon textures that will soon be in testing on Blight. We resized the textures to take advantage of memory that modern computers and graphics cards now have (as opposed to what they had in 2003).

Teaser: And we're looking at other things to improve the appearance of such as.... trees.

Ofcourse alot would have to be done, basically the whole logic system.
But once you redo that you will lift on any engine updates Unity makes (or unreal or cryengine for that matter depends on your taste and choise)

All those things you describe that would have to be done sound like alot of fun!
The re-creation of the world Istaria.
New horizons.
There used to be alot talented technical people playing this game.
What if you would make an asset-repo, a contract that would have to be signed for non-disclosure or and respect copyright of the assets, retainment of intelectual property of what was created with those assets (Any even simpel game where you could fly those mighty dragons could be imensly popular)
A group of Istarians could have a go at it, if you guys yourself are too busy.
All i'm saying is that while the hardcore players might appreciate little tweaks here and there in the world that they live in, any outsiders wouldn't all they see is an outdated game.

You have very powerfull assets.Why don't you use them to their full potential?
An asset with 10 different flying controllable dragons in the unity asset-store would already be a best-seller i figure, but that would be a waste of opportunity imho.

[Braenen]

i agree with this. I have left Istaria because of the long time till my dragon can fly. If it's possible to pay for it, i would do...

[Tilithia]

@ Braenen

It really doesnt take so long to train your draggy to 30. Dragon has tons of nice quests (compared to ped) every 5 lvs-10 lvs, if you do every adventure quest you get plenty trophies which almost completely remove the need to grind for trophies. When you turn in those trophies youre almsot ready to start new line of quests. Crafting may be a little grind but people are so willing to help usually that even this wont take long at all. Rite of Passage got easier. Current requirements are only 30 adventure and (mere) 20 craft levels. Beside that you need to be 30 days old (real time) and have 250k hoard (that again can be gotten while doing all these adventure quests). RoP takes maximum of a day to do whole questline now. And again people are usually willing to help you find rop bosses and fight them with you (not for you ) Just pointing these things out.. Perhaps you should try the new RoP with new hatchling.

Offtopic i know...
I really love Istarias graphics the way they are and i will never understand why some complain about them,i wouldnt trade them for any others. Content changed a lot and theres always something to do in the game..(says soemoen whos been playing for 4 years) and i know many would agree..

[LOVWYRM]

Tango- a lot of the things you suggest-are the reason why I do not play- or do not play for a longer time one of the newer games.

Grind is what you make it- and the old graphics do have their own charme and uniquenes to me and some other vet players.
We have lots of new wonderful landscapes and many new things to explore. New plott stuff- all created with much love!
The concept of the game is still exciting, demanding and never boring,
Sure- a lot should be done- could be done.. but a completely new game- seems impossible in my eyes.

You `ve played that game long enough- I wonder what there still is to grind for you?
Anyway*wingwave* hope to see you back some day

[Tzael]

Another aspect that would be problematic is the terrain system. Istaria's terrain is saved on the server, while Unity 3D out of the box requires terrain to be generated on the client. So a system would have to be written to handle that, which would introduce further issues with pathing, plots, etc.

I built a dynamic cache streaming solution for Unity 3D for use in my own MMO. There were aspects of Istaria's terrain streaming that inspired my own solution, and if I can offer encouragement to Istaria's developers it is that implementing a terrain streaming system in Unity 3D is not difficult. I'm just a solo developer, but I've built an MMO around Unity 3D's editor - my own problem with MMO development is that I have the technical skills but don't have more than 4 artists working with me - they're the people who are bringing my vision to life by populating the framework I've built with assets while I'm now free to implement much of the written content, dialogue, quests and the likes.

It's definitely worth taking a look at replacing Unity 3D's terrain system with a home-brew solution for dynamic terrain streaming. I'm impressed with what I was able to do with just a couple of weeks' free time, I know your own in-house developers will be capable of much better.

[Braenen]

i agree with you. It is my mistake that i've left Istaria for a while. And i have reactivated my account (Yesterday). Now i have to do the RoP.
What i mean is, that if there was a possibility in the past to "buy" the way, i had done it. Crafting is soooo boring (in all games,, not only in Istaria). I hate that. Really!!!
The GUI and Graphics are old, yes. But this is no Problem for me. Better graphics not automatically better Games

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

I built a dynamic cache streaming solution for Unity 3D for use in my own MMO. There were aspects of Istaria's terrain streaming that inspired my own solution, and if I can offer encouragement to Istaria's developers it is that implementing a terrain streaming system in Unity 3D is not difficult. I'm just a solo developer, but I've built an MMO around Unity 3D's editor - my own problem with MMO development is that I have the technical skills but don't have more than 4 artists working with me - they're the people who are bringing my vision to life by populating the framework I've built with assets while I'm now free to implement much of the written content, dialogue, quests and the likes.

It's definitely worth taking a look at replacing Unity 3D's terrain system with a home-brew solution for dynamic terrain streaming. I'm impressed with what I was able to do with just a couple of weeks' free time, I know your own in-house developers will be capable of much better.

Yes Tzael, that's exactly my feeling, Unity is such a breeze for any developer...
While the end result of Cryengine or Unreal might be more cutting-edge it takes alot more effort to achieve something and with unity it all feels so natural.
The fact you can have a native blender model open in blender and at the same time in a scene in Unity, or native photoshop psd files simultaniously in both editing the texture and directly seeing the effect the sharer has on your changes to the raw texture.
Those are just scratching the surface of it's developer friendlyness.
Do you have a link to a demo of what your are working on? I would like to see what you have made!

@LOVWYRM not much left to grind for me there was when i left.. true, however new things might be added meanwhile?, i resubbed for a month last year or the year before, and flew around a few evenings as a dragon, which was great and not so great at the same time. The smoothness of the fly experience and the dragon model was still surprisingly nice, however the oldness of the terrain was to be honest underwhelming, it could really have been pleasant flying around Istaria and something that was worthwhile of doing more often if it would have been a joy to look at.

[AmonGwareth]

I wasn't saying streaming terrain couldn't be done. As a programmer I recognize that just about anything can be done given sufficient time and/or resources. Recreating Istaria in Unity could certainly be done given those two, but how long would it take, how much would current Istaria suffer from lack of updates during that process, and would the expense truly result in a return on investment?

In my opinion, its doubtful, unless it was an entirely new game. And that brings up a whole other set of issues.

Two years ago I played with importing some Saris assets into Unity. Lighting was a problem as was the state of the models because they were created in older versions of Maya/3dMax that didn't take advantage of features offered since 2004 (like bump mapping, vertex lighting, and more).

Anyway, we appreciate your feedback and your interest and we respect your opinion on the state of the game.

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

I wasn't saying streaming terrain couldn't be done. As a programmer I recognize that just about anything can be done given sufficient time and/or resources. Recreating Istaria in Unity could certainly be done given those two, but how long would it take, how much would current Istaria suffer from lack of updates during that process, and would the expense truly result in a return on investment?

In my opinion, its doubtful, unless it was an entirely new game. And that brings up a whole other set of issues.

Two years ago I played with importing some Saris assets into Unity. Lighting was a problem as was the state of the models because they were created in older versions of Maya/3dMax that didn't take advantage of features offered since 2004 (like bump mapping, vertex lighting, and more).

Anyway, we appreciate your feedback and your interest and we respect your opinion on the state of the game.

Likewise i respect any decision you make with regards to updating your game.
In your situation i can't possibly know whats the best course to take, it is my individual and personal wish to take them dragon models for a flight roaring over a modern next-gen graphics landscape.

Personally i wish i had a library with assets the like of your dragon models (including their flight animations, that hover-mid-air is just brilliant the way their neck is positioned etc.)
They are the ones that up to today still hold true value and could be used to make even a simple game popular.

How about a cross-platform-game that ties into the istaria database, but just gives you a subset of features?

For example:
Just allowing you to fly through the world, visit your plot but then with next-gen graphics and some ofcourse chat features? That would be a benefit for the current istaria players as well perhaps? If they are not crafting but chillin' they can enjoy their hard work supported by amazing graphics.
Just one idea of many possibilities.

I will not suggest something that would be very popular but also enrage a large part of your current members (dragon arena gladiator style joke-joke)

[Tzael]

Yes Tzael, that's exactly my feeling, Unity is such a breeze for any developer...
While the end result of Cryengine or Unreal might be more cutting-edge it takes alot more effort to achieve something and with unity it all feels so natural.
The fact you can have a native blender model open in blender and at the same time in a scene in Unity, or native photoshop psd files simultaniously in both editing the texture and directly seeing the effect the sharer has on your changes to the raw texture.
Those are just scratching the surface of it's developer friendlyness.
Do you have a link to a demo of what your are working on? I would like to see what you have made!

My game is currently active but a couple of things are causing me delays in making more of the game public... First is the restrictive concurrent user license for one of the components I use on the server side of things, it only allows a maximum of 20 simultaneous users until I've got funds to purchase a full license. The other thing is that the game ushers in some radical concepts for MMOs, it's not so much the ideas but how they're implemented that I consider to be particularly special and hopefully a bit of a game-changer. Because of this I have only let collaborators who are actively working on content to access the game world in its current state.

It might be worth me doing a stripped-down version of just the terrain streaming as a Unity project and sell it in the Unity Asset store, that might be a sensible way to demo the potential to you and others who are interested?

I'd love to see Istaria redone in a new engine, and I agree with Amon that taking the existing assets and importing them into a Unity project will require work to tweak each individual asset and validate/quality check the output. I can't be sure of this but I recall years ago some question of availability of the original assets due to changes in ownership, especially after the handover from EI to Virtrium. Having said that, if the original assets are still available in their native Maya/3DS Max/etc formats then a graphics pipeline can be set up involving scrutinising and updating assets in the original creation tool, applying bump maps and so on, followed by export into native formats for Unity 3D, and then a final validation and quality check in the Unity editor and engine. This would most likely involve an artist, a technician and a tester, and take up considerable time depending on the number of assets to be processed. If on the other hand the only assets available are the final processed assets currently used by the Istaria game client then considerably more work is involved.

It's a silly dream of mine that maybe one day Istaria could be reborn as one of the planets in my MMO, with all its lore, content, mechanics, schools and passion present in all its glory. Very unlikely, but who knows, I could be knocking on Virtrium's door with a copy of my work in the future to see what they think. Very unlikely though, licensing the intellectual property of Istaria is well outside of my bank balance at the moment!

[Wolfsong73]

Interesting topic, especially as I've been considering coming back to give Istaria another go.

On the topic of game engines, and terrain... I've always been curious of how the world in Istaria is created? Is it a height-map based setup? Or is it modeled in a 3D modeling app and then exported to a custom format as a polysoup mesh? Perhaps with vertex blending for texturing, etc?

I ask this, because in my travels, I know I've seen cliffs with overhangs that blended seamlessly into surrounding terrain; it wasn't a separate 3D prop placed on the ground, etc.

[Tzael]

On the topic of game engines, and terrain... I've always been curious of how the world in Istaria is created? Is it a height-map based setup? Or is it modeled in a 3D modeling app and then exported to a custom format as a polysoup mesh? Perhaps with vertex blending for texturing, etc?

Istaria uses height map data for the terrain, it allows for cut-outs in the terrain but doesn't allow for overhanging cliffs - those features are provided by way of object placement on the terrain. Take a dive through the worldcache folder to get a better idea of how the information for each sector in the game is put together

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

My game is currently active but a couple of things are causing me delays in making more of the game public... First is the restrictive concurrent user license for one of the components I use on the server side of things, it only allows a maximum of 20 simultaneous users until I've got funds to purchase a full license. The other thing is that the game ushers in some radical concepts for MMOs, it's not so much the ideas but how they're implemented that I consider to be particularly special and hopefully a bit of a game-changer. Because of this I have only let collaborators who are actively working on content to access the game world in its current state.

It might be worth me doing a stripped-down version of just the terrain streaming as a Unity project and sell it in the Unity Asset store, that might be a sensible way to demo the potential to you and others who are interested?

I'd love to see Istaria redone in a new engine, and I agree with Amon that taking the existing assets and importing them into a Unity project will require work to tweak each individual asset and validate/quality check the output. I can't be sure of this but I recall years ago some question of availability of the original assets due to changes in ownership, especially after the handover from EI to Virtrium. Having said that, if the original assets are still available in their native Maya/3DS Max/etc formats then a graphics pipeline can be set up involving scrutinising and updating assets in the original creation tool, applying bump maps and so on, followed by export into native formats for Unity 3D, and then a final validation and quality check in the Unity editor and engine. This would most likely involve an artist, a technician and a tester, and take up considerable time depending on the number of assets to be processed. If on the other hand the only assets available are the final processed assets currently used by the Istaria game client then considerably more work is involved.

It's a silly dream of mine that maybe one day Istaria could be reborn as one of the planets in my MMO, with all its lore, content, mechanics, schools and passion present in all its glory. Very unlikely, but who knows, I could be knocking on Virtrium's door with a copy of my work in the future to see what they think. Very unlikely though, licensing the intellectual property of Istaria is well outside of my bank balance at the moment!

Fair enough, i would not feel comfortable with sharing my revolitionary ideas with anyone either.
I was just asking out of interest though.
As a sidenote most revolutionary ideas are not selling that well, where simple games comprehensible by the majority of the population are... and if you want to realize a revolutionary game you need a couple of dumb games for funding.

[Abbie]

I have played this game for almost 11 years now. and one of the Things i love about it is the graphic. And the sound/music.

But i also welcome a "new Horizons" is tat cometo that. Not another game, the same game with a new engine


But what i do miss in this game is the old dalimond and the beginner Islands and lesser aradoth as it was back in time

[Thangorodrim Atanatari]

It might be worth me doing a stripped-down version of just the terrain streaming as a Unity project and sell it in the Unity Asset store, that might be a sensible way to demo the potential to you and others who are interested?

As you mentioned streaming terrain, i had to think about you when i came across this plugin:
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/15356

Is it yours?

[Tzael]

As you mentioned streaming terrain, i had to think about you when i came across this plugin:
https://www.assetstore.unity3d.com/en/#!/content/15356

Is it yours?

Not mine, haven't had a chance to strip out just the terrain streaming from my project yet! I've had a little rummage through their asset store, seems that a few other infinite terrain systems are also available. Noticing a lot more projects geared up for large world simulations available in the Unity asset store compared to a year ago.

I've spent the last few days hunting down an open-source client project that was on CodePlex or a similar code repository, as I understood it, that project was a starting effort by some developers employed by Tulga at the time. It interprets the existing Istaria definition files and was largely just a starting point, but it certainly made for interesting review. Unfortunately I haven't been able to track it down yet, but when I do I'll post a link here unless someone beats me to it

Edit: Here it is: http://evolution.codeplex.com/