Grinding Factor

[Terao]

With the last updates a lot of things got added that just needs grinding, grinding and ... yes grinding.

Token of Gratitude
Grinding, okay it's a lot of small quest killing 20 here and there. To be able to rebuy a Tech Kit that is priced with 12s you need 1200 Tokens. To gain those it takes about four days for a single character, if you do ~18 of the daily quests every day. And it takes quiet some time to do 18 of the quests.

Rift Tokens
Priced 1s you need tokens worth of 1000 to be able to buy one of the new Dragon Tech Kits. According to what I can say and have heared from others it takes about 4-8h of pure grind in the Rift aquire enough of the tokens.

Epic Loot
The old system was crap, the new one of it's basic idea a lot better. One character is able to get about 25 tokens every day, if you always find a group to hunt. The math ca do everyone for himself how long it may take to aquire the formulars and resources needed to gain the epics. But it feels like grinding to me too.

The way you added to regain a token for the Scale of Grand Magus is much more fun, with a little quest.

Please add more of the last, and not too much more grind, this is no fun, this is just to be forced for no fun, time consuming obligatory act. Istaria itself already has got enough of grinding you know, just think of building...

[Calyndrell]

With the last updates a lot of things got added that just needs grinding, grinding and ... yes grinding.

Token of Gratitude
Grinding, okay it's a lot of small quest killing 20 here and there. To be able to rebuy a Tech Kit that is priced with 12s you need 1200 Tokens. To gain those it takes about four days for a single character, if you do ~18 of the daily quests every day. And it takes quiet some time to do 18 of the quests.

Rift Tokens
Priced 1s you need tokens worth of 1000 to be able to buy one of the new Dragon Tech Kits. According to what I can say and have heared from others it takes about 4-8h of pure grind in the Rift aquire enough of the tokens.

Epic Loot
The old system was crap, the new one of it's basic idea a lot better. One character is able to get about 25 tokens every day, if you always find a group to hunt. The math ca do everyone for himself how long it may take to aquire the formulars and resources needed to gain the epics. But it feels like grinding to me too.

The way you added to regain a token for the Scale of Grand Magus is much more fun, with a little quest.

Please add more of the last, and not too much more grind, this is no fun, this is just to be forced for no fun, time consuming obligatory act. Istaria itself already has got enough of grinding you know, just think of building...

Yeah the systems are a grind but how else would you like to limit their availability. If they make the quests 1 quest a day/week/what ever then people will complain because hunts will become even rarer. Also it wouldn't be a EPIC if you could obtain them easily. If the devs had time I would love a 30+ step quest for every epic weapon but that takes alot of time per quest/weapon. but that is just not feasible. The fact is there MUST be a challenge to keep epic weapons just, EPIC. otherwise whats the point?

[AmonGwareth]

Calyndrell is right, you must have some form of cost associated with acquiring items or they would have no value. That cost always boils down to time (either through the acquisition of currency or a more direct limitation in the form of dailies or something).

That said, while I disagree that the epic system has too much grind, the others our goal was to set the costs high so that we could later adjust downwards if we needed to. It is easier for players to accept making things cheaper, than it is to accept making things more expensive.

[Terao]

If the answer is to add new content by adding more grind I say no to this, and this is what I wanted to say, the last updates added things with high grind factor (Rift, Tokens of Gratitude). I've no problem to grind things, but it is no fun. And if it does no fun why should I keep playing...

I'm not the one to give answers how it might be done better. Sure I want more quests, and the longer they are the better. When did the last real big quest got added? Answer for yourself. I just want that is taken care of that adding more grinding stuff can't be the solution - and this is what I've seen with the last updates.

And as I've stated the new epic system is a lot better then the old one was. It may take some time and may take some more tweaking, but there is another thread according to this.

[Spyrioyo]

Actually it needs to be an equal balance of Grind and Fun. But also Tero's right what's the point without the challenge do you want and easy button, but more importantly an epic should be worth an epic. Some of the epics other normal weapons are better than them.

[Terao]

I didn't say I want an easy going. All this is about that we need some visions and ideas how it could be done better. I don't have an really good idea yet (besides of a long quest, just think of Burning Archer).

To give an example, the way to collect a bottle cap collection has a very high grind factor - but it its also of more fun, you hunt for something, you craft something inbetween...

I'm sure there are other ideas out there that keep a balance between grind and fun.

[Guaran]

Token of Gratitude
Grinding, okay it's a lot of small quest killing 20 here and there. To be able to rebuy a Tech Kit that is priced with 12s you need 1200 Tokens. To gain those it takes about four days for a single character, if you do ~18 of the daily quests every day. And it takes quiet some time to do 18 of the quests.

It's very unlikely that most players have time to do 18 of these quests per day. Taking about 30 minutes per, factoring in all the travel time to the mobs, and relogs due to all the recalling (can only have one active quest at a time, so 18 recalls). That's 9 hours to do 18 quests. It comes out to 37.5 hours. Even spending 1.5 hours a day on this, its 25 days per 1200 tokens of gratitude. This is double the time to get an epic weapon. I know players who haven't even touched those quests after spending a few hours one day doing them. I haven't bothered in months.

These prices could use being cut in half.

On the other hand, Epic token cores costs could use being doubled. 12.5 days of quests, or about an hour a day, per epic.

[Spyrioyo]

I agree with Guaran no one wants to be bogged down with quests. But I feel the epic system is fine way it is that just that some epic weapons need to be more epic. To get the 3 cores that would take about 15-20 days of getting quests possibly more cause sometimes people really don't want to go on epic hunts. Cause it takes 288 tokens to obtain 3 epic cores. Also if you want to increase you need to factor in all possibilities like no one wanting to go on hunts, some people don't have time cause of work, and other factors that can limit because some people cannot spend hours on here, but still it needs to be fair for everyone. I haven't even touched those and if it takes that many it needs a prices change like rift tokens, but for epic tokens its kind needs a little balancing only for epic cores but that can be solved just lowering the cost of epic core a bit like no more than 24 tokens, but no of the taking away formulas, I see that taking the formulas away frustrates and angers the player base.

[Guaran]

.. To get the 3 cores that would take about 15-20 days of getting quests possibly more cause sometimes people really don't want to go on epic hunts. Cause it takes 288 tokens to obtain 3 epic cores. Also if you want to increase you need to factor in all possibilities like no one wanting to go on hunts, some people don't have time cause of work, and other factors that can limit because some people cannot spend hours on here, but still it needs to be fair for everyone...

Right, but if they don't want to put in the time, they don't deserve the epic weapons. 12.5 days worth of quests. So if you can only get on approximately every other day, both both days on weekends. It's only about 20 days. Eaasy. And, if you got 2 subs, just bring 2 toons along. Give the tokens one toon earns to the other, now its only 6.5 days to get something, maybe 10 days if you skip it here and there. Seriously, it's really easy. A guildie has already made both Reklar sash and Reklar shield, he'd been waiting years to get them. But, he hadn't been going on any Reklar hunts until now either. You don't go, you don't get. For these, an hour a day doesn't feel grindy. You get on, do the quest kills, you can relax. Totally different vibe from the token of gratitude quests.

But those token of gratitude quests... can't have more than 1 quest at a time, all the recalling and porting = alot of crashing trying to cram these into one day. I am glad there are many choices for the quests, so at least some people can choose mobs that maybe they need comps from or trophies from. But doing all those quests in a day? No thanks. Waay too grindy. Especially just to replace a tech, not even trying to get something epic. On top of that, dev's will not remove the old techs for you if you accidentally apply one to something else. "That would violate company policy" since now you can grind out another. Or put one on a piece of gear that now has 2 tech slots. Guess what!? It's Grind time!

no thanks

[LOVWYRM]

agreed, Terao,
agreed Guaran

to make grind more fun
(and its always my decision if grinding is worth the reward given- I do not go for rift token,nor gratitudes)
why not use the ARoP bosses of the rift to give out token too?
If you help with ARoP , or come with friends for the token- loot gives 100 (e.G.) rift token if boss A and B or C and D get killed.
Does not that sound that like more fun, than grinding alone token by token?

Thistleface and Umjarr (e.G.) could be an ADDITION to the daily quests- kill them (or others) and you get an additional amount ( enough to lower that high costs ) of gratitude token (if you help with ARoP AND have that daily quest token drop too)- its a nice little reward for those who help- just put in loot table for all group members).

I think its a waste of this bosses to employ them ^^ only for ARoP- and its fun to hunt them- and a good reason to group.

And do not forget the boss in the fiery rift

[Terao]

Gua the example I given with 4 days and 18 quests a day is a bad one, you are right, none is going to hunt four days in a row, except he might have vacation

As it takes a lot of time to gather the amount of tokens - why not making the new dragon chest scale techniques craftable ones? That would be a goal that is worth investing the amount of time. They could use some T6 technique resources that aren't too easy to gather. I think that would be a step into the right direction.

[Terao]

Let the lesser and higher epic bosses drop a component that is used for crafting the dragon techs, that would be a lot better then hunting again and again for enough Rift tokens to be able to acquire the one time tech kits.

For the Town Marshalls (Tokens of Gratitude) I second Guaran that prices could be half of what it is now. And it is still enough of hours spend to be able to (re-)buy the tech kits.

[Velea]

Token of Gratitude
Grinding, okay it's a lot of small quest killing 20 here and there. To be able to rebuy a Tech Kit that is priced with 12s you need 1200 Tokens. To gain those it takes about four days for a single character, if you do ~18 of the daily quests every day. And it takes quiet some time to do 18 of the quests.

I can't speak to anything else right now, but you should only need 120 Tokens of Gratitude, not 1200 to buy the most expensive thing that Daggle (for example) has to offer. That's a factor of 10 that what you are saying seems to be off by.

If this is what you are seeing, could you please either submit a support ticket or post here with what server you are on and specifically what NPC you are buying from, as it is possible something is wrong in the database.

[Guaran]

I can't speak to anything else right now, but you should only need 120 Tokens of Gratitude, not 1200 to buy the most expensive thing that Daggle (for example) has to offer. That's a factor of 10 that what you are saying seems to be off by.

If this is what you are seeing, could you please either submit a support ticket or post here with what server you are on and specifically what NPC you are buying from, as it is possible something is wrong in the database.

Last I looked at Daggle, those techs in question cost 12s (= 12,000cp), and the tokens are 10cp. You need 1200 to buy anything priced at 12s. But I honestly haven't even looked at the vendor in several months, so this information could be off.

[Tilithia]

List of items listed at 12s on Daggle (im looking at the trade window right now)

-bone lacing tech kit
-crest of blackhammer clan
-mental bane
-frozen weapon

chaos server.

[Velea]

Thank you. We're looking into what happened.

[Terao]

Same for Order, it takes 1200 token (12 s) for the mentioned techs. Do I get my 2,260 back (difference 2.400-240) I've spent some weeks ago for two tech kits? ... Oh my

[Velea]

Because this content has been in since May and this is the first we've heard of it, I'm sorry, you won't get any sort of refund. We don't have the records of who spent what on what in order to be able to do it fairly for everyone.

[Korchak Strongbone]

I did 1 Token of Gratitude quest to see what it was about then visited Daggle and did a little math in my head and decided that it wasn't worth it. 1200 tokens to buy something. Tokens worth 10c cost of something is 12s yea 1200, no thanks. I have other things to do with my game play. That's insane amount, but hey if you really want something I suppose you'll do anything.

I never complained I just didn't do it, now it sounds like possibly it was meant to be a cost of 120? OMG that is too funny.

Yes, It would be nice to have some new quests to aid in getting these tokens, perhaps a quest to kill a group of named mobs:
Named Adamantium golem, Named Travertine Golem, Named Mithril Boulder Golem, Named Obsidian Boulder Golem could be the Rock Smasher Quest. Reward 100 Tokens, lot's of running to get to these far apart mobs but worth the reward of tokens of gratitude.

This could be a way of maybe not reducing the tokens to under 1200 which could upset people who did grind, not including myself but to also make it easier to obtain the 1200 # for your tech item.

-Kor

[Velea]

Ok, a "Mea Culpa" post here in the interest of full disclosure. This system was never designed to be "just another grind", so I was surprised by the feedback here. And the valuation on the Tokens (as it was wrong for some things).

I tested the Tokens of Gratitude on our internal server today and did not get the results you all are reporting. Wires got crossed and things were updated internally that were not yet on live and I didn't realize that.

In any case, here is the plan for the next update.

1) Tokens of Gratitude will stay at the coin value they are now (10 CP) because that makes them easier at the lower tiers to work with. Keep in mind, please, that this system has to work from T1 up to T6, and that's not easy.

2) The values of the items sold will be as follows:
* Emblems to replace Titles will be just one days worth of tokens
* Formulas and Techniques not from quests will be 2 days worth of Tokens
* Quested items such as Technique Kits will be 5 days worth of Tokens and can be used so long as the quest is done originally (a couple of these were pointing to the wrong quest as being completed, but I think we've got them fixed).

When I say "days worth of tokens" that is assuming that you are doing like-tiered quests. So for a T1 item, you need 1 days worth of T1 quests, but for a T5 item you need 1 "days worth" of T5 quests. (Note as there are no T6 Town Marshall quests presently, those are valued at 1.5 of the T5 quests.)

We're working hard to try and pull together another "fixer" delta for issues like this in the near future.