A question on the monk disciples -

[Losian]

So, after running around a bit, I had a realization. Upon swapping to a disciple at level 20 from Monk, you receive the ability for all kinds of spells, appropriate for your monk type. Furthermore, you get a whopping 10 skillpoints per level in that spell skill, so the flame disciple gets 10 points of flame per level, neat!

What I didn't realize, though, is that these aren't retroactive? Therefore, a level 20 flame disciple will have 0 flame skill, and at 21 will jump to 10. The only want to have your flame skill be at-level would be to level some other class alongside your disciple.

I guess my question is this - does the huge deficit in skill make the spells worthless, or is it intended to be a "penalty" of sorts to avoid them being fully as viable as on a caster? Or is it intended to level a second class with the appropriate magic skill up alongside?

I swapped to another school thinking I could just raise my skill to the 200 point and then pick up with the disciple, but I'm guessing that only the highest counts (ie, having 200 flame and leveling flame disciple won't put me at 210, it would put me at 200 for one school and 10 for flame disciple, and go with the highest, 200.)

Anyone have some insight? Trying to kinda figure this out..

So basically - are the spells even viable without leveling a second school alongside or above the disciples just for the magic skill? I can't imagine it's worth the training points dump, as many as it'd take.

[Daulnay]

When you reach level 100, it will be as if your disciple had gotten 8 points per level. You get 1,200 Training Points total, so putting 600 of them into the disciple's magic skill would be a big investment. However, you can remove them with buyback points later.

Once you reach level 24, you can add 110 points to your magical skill with customized gear (10 points per piece). Again, this is a big investment (there are 21 pieces of gear you can customize, so this is again about half of them). However, the skill points per piece increase by 5 each tier, so at level 100 it will only take 8 pieces of gear to replace the full 200 points.

Also, your magical skill will increase somewhat from your character's Strength, Dexterity, Power and Focus (depending on the magic skill).

So, yes. It is viable. I would:
Level the appropriate magical school to 10: Mage (Flame), Spiritist (Spirit), Druid (Nature), or Mage 11 (Ice).
Get jewelry and leather armor customized to boost your chosen magic skill. You may need some help getting the monster components.
Put as many training points in the magical skill as you're comfortable with.
That will get your magical skill up close to your adventure level.

If your adventure level is too high, drop other schools, like Warrior and Monk, that you no longer need. You can do this by talking to the guy on the rocks in Dalimond Bay near the Dalimond lighthouse.

[Garrick]

The short answer here is yes, the spells are fully viable without those 20 skills points. In the grand scheme of things 20 skills points makes virtually no difference in how effective your spells will be, the only real difference you will actually see is when you will actually be able to scribe new spells as that is directly related to skill. Even here though, the difference will only be 2 levels, which is still virtually nothing except at the lowest levels.
All of the prestige schools that start at level 20 have this 20 point skill deficit in thier primary skill. Its a design flaw in the prestige system and has been discussed numerous times over the years. Its due to the fact that, as you noticed, the points are not retroactive, since you automatically start at level 20, you do not gain any points for those levels. This is mostly due to the fact that you did not in fact "earn" these levels. If you do the math its easy to see why this 20 point deficit happens...in order to qualify for a prestige class you must meet the requisite skill level or class level. This requirement is 180 skill, or level 20. Since most non prestige classes have a max skill gain of 9 per level 9x20=180. So when you switch to the prestige class, you start at level 20 with that 180 skill, getting nothing for those 20 levels because those 20 levels are essentially what you already earned in the original class. And you gain 10 points per level from that point on. Any skills you get from the prestige class that you did not get from the original class start as though you are at level 1. Essentially prestige classes are only really 80 levels since you start at 20 already.
The reason behind starting the class at level 20 is that you must be level 20 to qualify, so switching classes and starting at 20 essentially means you dont have to do those 20 levels all over again. It seems like a good idea in theory, but there is that 20 point skill deficit to consider. This whole issue would be solved if all classes just started at level 1, but the devs seem to have been reluctant to do that. A 20 point skill boost in the prestige class would also fix that, but i think that has been suggested as well.
As i said though, in the grand scheme of things, once you reach level 100 that 20 points is practically meaningless.

[hallucin8]

As i said though, in the grand scheme of things, once you reach level 100 that 20 points is practically meaningless.

Except it's not 20, it's 200

And yes, it will make a difference as you won't be hitting as often and you might have trouble meeting the requirements of some of the T5 spells. It's a shame disciples don't get 11 (or even 12) magic skill per level to make up for the lost 200 for the first 20 levels... or even just some extra passive (non-masterable) abilities to make up the difference (*COUGH* SUGGESTION *COUGH*).

But not only that, the monk disciples get very lower power per level, so at no point will your spells be packing much of a punch unless you level up at least mage (and the school which best fits your chosen disciple, fortunately for flame/ice that would be mage).

It might help if you think of yourself as more of a monk but with some nice new abilities, rather than trying to rely on your spells. Spells can have long cast times compared to your punches, so you're probably going to be dong more damage with melee anyway.

Unfortunately, the double kick to the shins is that the monk schools also get relatively low strength per level, meaning you might want to level a school which will help boost your strength. If you want to avoid leveling another adventure school, Fitter is pretty easy to level, otherwise Berserker might be your best option (at least then you can wear the same armor set), although Warrior will provide you with more melee related skills (and maybe some masterable abilities).

Not sure if any of that is helpful. A full-time monk/disciple player might have better insight. Just try to have fun and you can't go wrong. Good luck.

[Daulnay]

If you want to avoid leveling another adventure school, Fitter is pretty easy to level, otherwise Berserker might be your best option (at least then you can wear the same armor set), although Warrior will provide you with more melee related skills (and maybe some masterable abilities).

Berserker is an excellent idea. You'll get Armor Use 10 (very helpful), Strength 10 (the only school this good) and Health 20. In addition, you get a masterable Strength Boost, Health Boost, Parry (very nice to tech onto a handwrap), Weapon Adept, Battle Hardened, and Cleave. Warrior does not get Strength Boost or Battle Hardened, instead getting Defensive Style, Block, Defend Other, Distract, Shield Stance and Whirlwind Attack. Only the last of these is really good; Block and Shield Stance are unusable for a monk, and monks/disciples don't absorb damage very well.

My main, Tamlis, is sometimes a Storm Disciple (it's the highest level of multiple schools). I've leveled Fitter and Weaver, for Strength and Dex, but also am a Reaver, for Health, Parry, Strength Boost, Syphon (masterable lifedrain), Ethereal Armor, and spell overlap (both can use Nature, Blight, and Spirit). However, spells just don't land unless you tech up jewelry and/or put TP into the associated magic skill, which means you're not putting them into Unarmed, Strength, Evasion, or Wards (those boost evasion).

Note that Monks can use Quarterstaff and Staffs, even though they don't get any skills raises for 2H Crush weapons. So Chaos Warrior, Warrior, or Guardian would provide good skill in a second weapon for your Monk to use (and one that a cloth-wearing spellcaster could use as well).

[Losian]

Thanks for the thoughts here! I think my problem is I don't really want to *have* to level some other school, for skill points or armor use or whatever else, to play the one I want.. I know, I'm weird like that, I guess. The multiclassing aspect isn't appealing to me in that way, moreso for abilities I want to use, rather than maxing out stats/skills before evne playing the school I wanna play!

That said, I guess I'm surprised that instead of just getting 8 per level and ending up at that point, they instead get 0 up until 20.. If they just got 8 per level up to 20, and progressed there as normal, it'd be a lot easy to drop in some points via trianing and keep it doable, while, in the long run, the end result would be the same skill points.. seems like a very simple, and very nice, change the devs could make!

And yes, my concern is putting tons of effort into tech'd armor is missing out on the dex/unarmed/str on gear and thus falling short in other ways.

I guess it wasn't as much I want to "rely" on the spells as much as feel like they're worth having, much less tech'ing, etc., as I get up a bit in levels! I always found the different disciples pretty appealing, save their numerous drawbacks. KNoC still holds a special place just cause the flavor of the school is so very cool, and maybe that neat revamp will come around, but otherwise..

Thanks again for the inputs! I ended up leveling spiritist just so my spells will at least hit some stuff in the 20s, but I imagine it'll taper off pretty fast once it just gets so far behind. A little shift from 10/level starting at 20 to just 8 per starting at 1 would be neat, make them at least vaguely viable, and lessen the up-front heavy handed miss factor for all disciples, I imagine.

[Garrick]

[QUOTE=hallucin8;303606]Except it's not 20, it's 200

for most prestige classes it is, in fact, 20. Because the prerequiste for the class is 180 skill. The specific problem here is that this class does not have a prerequisite for the skill that it provides, and that is where the problem lies. Adding the 180 skill as a prerequisite would change that 200 point deficit to the standard 20 point one.

No class is going to be the best at everything, just because a class provides a skill doesn't mean you are going to be able to use everything related to that skill. You are always going to have weaknesses. unless you multiclass and max out every school, you just have to deal with the shortcomings of your chosen class. This is part of what makes all the classes different. Also i say again, you cant think of those 20 levels as actual levels, they are not, thus you cannot get anything for them, they simply dont exist. When a prestige class starts at level 20, you must think of that as level 1 for the class,because that is effectively what it is.
I would love to see all classes start at level 1 to solve this whole issue, but i doubt that will ever happen.

On a side note, monk disciples are basically monks, with some added abilities and spell options. Your primary fuction is unarmed combat. Having access to the spells is a secondary trait that helps spice up combat and add new tactical options. You may not get access to the best spells possible, but the spells you do have access to can still be useful if you know how to use them, and tech them wisely. Its all about variety, tactical choices, and how you choose to fight.