Armor Use Rebalance

[Machaeon]

Armor user skill allows the player to UPGRADE their armor beyond the intended for that school if they train another school that is better at using armor, such as Warrior. Keep in mind they are in no way REQUIRED to do any of that.

So you're telling me that padded cloth armor is meant to be "beyond the intended" for Spiritist? That's the second weakest armor in the entire game... they can ONLY wear cloth armor types. If armor use would let them wear chainmail or platemail then you would have a valid point... that WOULD be beyond what's intended for the school.

[...]is really a stretch as any sort of justification for changing all armor to just immediately allow say a healer to wear Mithril Chainmail that they should only be strong enough to wear unless they are also a trained Warrior.

Except the way armor use is implemented makes that argument fall flat... it doesn't take skill to dress yourself right? So you should be able to wear something that's stated as being only marginally better than clothing right? WRONG. You need at least level 81 and 810 armor use to wear t5 plain cloth.... which logically wouldn't be any different from putting on a set of normal clothes except for the materials it's made of. So following your logic, if you are only in a school that gives 8 armor use per level and are at level 100, you're apparently too dumb to put on clothes properly. Same goes for padded cloth, you can't just take a school that gives 9 armor use per level because you'd be stuck 10 armor use points too short to wear that at level 100. Following your logic, at this point you can dress yourself, but you can't put on a bit of padding.

You should try playing a pure mystic biped... see how long it takes before it gets frustrating. When you have 5 schools to 100 and STILL can't wear decent t5 armor... despite some of those schools being able to wear chainmail and heck even PLATEMAIL with Cleric, you're still relegated to wear plain cloth armor AT BEST because you're 10 armor use short of wearing anything at all better.

The description of armor use in the game is "Allows you to wear better armor." you are right in that... but that's just plain wrong. In the scenario I just described (which I have been through) it's the only thing holding you back from wearing better armor.

[Litarath]

To follow on Mach's arguement, I've been in her shoes before.

My first biped was a pure mystic type, and... actually WAS a spiritist, but at level 100 the BEST armor she was able to wear was regular cloth armor. This is unacceptable, the class is ABLE to wear padded armor, but only gets enough skill to wear, at best, non-padded armor, leaving the character much more vulnerable.

To further follow on this, there ARE people that want to play just ONE class and in fact one of my friends was just about ready to up and leave Istaria completely out of frustration. She ONLY wanted to play Cleric, but is FORCED to multi-class into Warrior JUST to get enough skill to wear the armor she should already be able to wear. She was so thrilled that she'd reached 31 because she thought she'd be able to wear a special set of armor I'd crafted for her, but all her hopes were crushed when she found out she didn't have enough armor use skill.

She even said that she considered outright deleting her biped. When people begin to feel like that, there's something SERIOUSLY wrong with something. Lore and whatnot, notwithstanding.

Guaran, your arguement seems to be that you want to force other people to play the game you want them to play it. It also seems to feel like coming from someone who is 'looking down' on others because they don't want to multi-class.

Most of those that object to the armor use system are speaking from a PRACTICAL point of view. Its unreasonable to FORCE someone to multi-class just to be able to use a type of armor they should already be able to use because the class says that they can use it. In this regard, it would likely be best to just outright remove the skill and leave only the level limitation in place. That, at least, is a reasonable factor.

Cleric is a great example, it can use plate armor, but only gets enough skill to maybe use scale armor at best. This armor use clearly needs to be either removed, or made more reasonable.

[AmonGwareth]

What Guaran is trying to say is that if at level 100 you do not have enough armor use to wear the highest possible armor for you then you should add another class and level it to gain that capability. Istaria for non-Dragons was not built on the concept of a single class can do everything, it was built on the concept of weaving together multiple classes to form a unique pattern. Spiritist CAN wear padded armor, but does not get sufficient armor use to wear it at level 100. When you reach that point, your option is to level another school that can increase your armor-use further and then switch back to Spiritist and wear padded armor. That is how the game is designed.

[Calyndrell]

To me this even makes sense from a lore perspective in the game.

It's fine as it is.

First, What on earth does armour use have to do with lore, its got no reference to any lore anywhere. I am fairly sure there is no reference to rysom being unable to put his armour on before the great battle or that torrin mcclair was stuck without his padded cloth mage robes because he hadn't leveled warrior.

And no its not fine (I am assuming your a dragon player otherwise you'd know what you were talking about)

[Alisto]

What Guaran is trying to say is that if at level 100 you do not have enough armor use to wear the highest possible armor for you then you should add another class and level it to gain that capability. Istaria for non-Dragons was not built on the concept of a single class can do everything, it was built on the concept of weaving together multiple classes to form a unique pattern. Spiritist CAN wear padded armor, but does not get sufficient armor use to wear it at level 100. When you reach that point, your option is to level another school that can increase your armor-use further and then switch back to Spiritist and wear padded armor. That is how the game is designed.

The game was also designed with an epic system based on RNG loot drops (redesigned), abilities with long cooldowns (many of which have been lowered), epic items that weren't worth getting (they're being buffed), GR on a 15 sec cooldown...*cough* Not to 'kill the interpreter' here, I just like how you put it better than Guaran did xD

'It was designed that way' is essentially a statement of reality. Yes. The game is currently like that, but I don't know any place where that means it automatically gets a pass to always remain that way.

Anyway...

I think that the game would benefit from the removal/change of Armor Use. Its removal/change would allow bipeds to wear slightly higher level armor than they normally could/alleviate some of the burden with multi-classing, which I think is needed. I'm currently leveling a biped and had 4 schools at lv20, for ar ating of around 27. Fully teched armor (not fully teched jewelry because I'm lazy, but did have jewelry), and a fully teched, up-to-date casting staff. TPs were allocated appropriate to what I was doing, armor was the best I could wear. Spells were all up to date as well (although not teched. Really, it'd provide a negligible bonus.). And yet the character was having immense difficulty with fighting mobs at lv20. For the record, is was a little piggy things south of Bristugo. I don't know if it's 'intended' that, as a rating 27, I should be struggling with someone well below that rating, but if it is that is extremely irritating, to put it gently.

Whoops (this is me looking over my text before posting, weeee \o/!) Almost forgot...My biped had warrior, mage, cleric and sorcerer. So, one prestige school to 'main' in, one for heals, one for spells, one for melee stuff.

Later I was hunting with a friend, who was only using the warrior class. They had a MUCH easier time surviving and dealing damage than my caster did (not to mention two to three times the armor I had). It feels like it's required to have a crafting school with a level much higher than your adventure class in order for casters to be sufficiently able to survive.

Some background to the above- after training multiple (around four?) bipeds well into the higher ratings using my dragon to smish stuff, I decided I'd try it the 'normal' way, just to see how it was. I have far more resources to stuff into my little biped than most new players, and am far more likely to know what I'm doing. The conclusion I seem to be nearing is that there's a bunch of stuff wrong/ridiculously outdated/pointless/...take your pick, with biped lower levels, and among the wrong stuff is how armor use works.

I won't go too far into it, but - character might(total effectiveness) comes from a variety of different places. Jewelry, crafting, mastered skills (multi-classing), current class, ARMOR...lots of places! From playing my higher level bipeds (rating 150 up to 240), it seems that the balance of power gain between all those lots of places is very out of whack, and then differs between schools (I duoed epics with a NAKED healer, for example, and didn't notice a significant heal increase once I got them a bunch of armor)

Would be nice to know the following:
Why did a pure warrior, who at the time didn't have ANY healing schools, only had updated armor going for them, out-tank and out damage my more multi-classed caster, who should've been by rights far stronger?

How many schools am I expected to take in order to be effective against mobs my own rating while leveling, no matter which of the schools I happen to be in, and why is it that number of schools?

How effective are single schools expected to be and why? I've found some schools EXTREMELY lackluster *cough*xbowman*cough*, yet others look super fleshed out and give me 'that looks well designed!' squeals of glee *COUGHACK*bloodmage*ahem*

Why is armor use even there in the first place when there was a level/quality(quality being, plate vs cloth) requirement and restriction already in place? What justified what is effectively further weakening/increased difficulty of low level bipeds when (it seems) it's already painful enough?


I'm going to stop typing before I lose track of what I'm saying /o/

[Calyndrell]

The game was also designed with an epic system based on RNG loot drops (redesigned), abilities with long cooldowns (many of which have been lowered), epic items that weren't worth getting (they're being buffed), GR on a 15 sec cooldown...*cough* Not to 'kill the interpreter' here, I just like how you put it better than Guaran did xD

'It was designed that way' is essentially a statement of reality. Yes. The game is currently like that, but I don't know any place where that means it automatically gets a pass to always remain that way.

Anyway...

I think that the game would benefit from the removal/change of Armor Use. Its removal/change would allow bipeds to wear slightly higher level armor than they normally could/alleviate some of the burden with multi-classing, which I think is needed. I'm currently leveling a biped and had 4 schools at lv20, for ar ating of around 27. Fully teched armor (not fully teched jewelry because I'm lazy, but did have jewelry), and a fully teched, up-to-date casting staff. TPs were allocated appropriate to what I was doing, armor was the best I could wear. Spells were all up to date as well (although not teched. Really, it'd provide a negligible bonus.). And yet the character was having immense difficulty with fighting mobs at lv20. For the record, is was a little piggy things south of Bristugo. I don't know if it's 'intended' that, as a rating 27, I should be struggling with someone well below that rating, but if it is that is extremely irritating, to put it gently.

Whoops (this is me looking over my text before posting, weeee \o/!) Almost forgot...My biped had warrior, mage, cleric and sorcerer. So, one prestige school to 'main' in, one for heals, one for spells, one for melee stuff.

Later I was hunting with a friend, who was only using the warrior class. They had a MUCH easier time surviving and dealing damage than my caster did (not to mention two to three times the armor I had). It feels like it's required to have a crafting school with a level much higher than your adventure class in order for casters to be sufficiently able to survive.

Some background to the above- after training multiple (around four?) bipeds well into the higher ratings using my dragon to smish stuff, I decided I'd try it the 'normal' way, just to see how it was. I have far more resources to stuff into my little biped than most new players, and am far more likely to know what I'm doing. The conclusion I seem to be nearing is that there's a bunch of stuff wrong/ridiculously outdated/pointless/...take your pick, with biped lower levels, and among the wrong stuff is how armor use works.

I won't go too far into it, but - character might(total effectiveness) comes from a variety of different places. Jewelry, crafting, mastered skills (multi-classing), current class, ARMOR...lots of places! From playing my higher level bipeds (rating 150 up to 240), it seems that the balance of power gain between all those lots of places is very out of whack, and then differs between schools (I duoed epics with a NAKED healer, for example, and didn't notice a significant heal increase once I got them a bunch of armor)

Would be nice to know the following:
Why did a pure warrior, who at the time didn't have ANY healing schools, only had updated armor going for them, out-tank and out damage my more multi-classed caster, who should've been by rights far stronger?

How many schools am I expected to take in order to be effective against mobs my own rating while leveling, no matter which of the schools I happen to be in, and why is it that number of schools?

How effective are single schools expected to be and why? I've found some schools EXTREMELY lackluster *cough*xbowman*cough*, yet others look super fleshed out and give me 'that looks well designed!' squeals of glee *COUGHACK*bloodmage*ahem*

Why is armor use even there in the first place when there was a level/quality(quality being, plate vs cloth) requirement and restriction already in place? What justified what is effectively further weakening/increased difficulty of low level bipeds when (it seems) it's already painful enough?


I'm going to stop typing before I lose track of what I'm saying /o/

Wow, long winded much?

but I am with your on all the above points alice, I remember years ago (i think around 11 years ago) when I was training Arzel I was trying to work mage, cleric, warrior, battle mage all at once... and at around level 35 it becomes impossible to level except off trophies. Yes I know the tier 3 revamp should in theory help to some degree but the revamp won't fix the mechanics. The problem is the rating system knocks you outa whack but thats a different topic.. back on topic... if armour already has a class restriction and a level restriction i don't see why it needs a armour use REQUIREMENT.. not suggesting do away with armour use all together but repurpose it.

ooh and just one to put out there, explain the following logic

a MAGE gets MORE armour use than a BATTLEMAGE

[Machaeon]

What Guaran is trying to say is that if at level 100 you do not have enough armor use to wear the highest possible armor for you then you should add another class and level it to gain that capability. Istaria for non-Dragons was not built on the concept of a single class can do everything, it was built on the concept of weaving together multiple classes to form a unique pattern. Spiritist CAN wear padded armor, but does not get sufficient armor use to wear it at level 100. When you reach that point, your option is to level another school that can increase your armor-use further and then switch back to Spiritist and wear padded armor. That is how the game is designed.

Well if you want to play a pure mystic biped, and are fine with multiclassing into the different mystic schools... then you're still up a certain creek without a paddle unless you leave the mystic specialization. I had Druid (9/level), Spiritist (8/level), Shaman (8/level), Healer (8/level) to 100 and could have gone for Cleric (9/level) too but I had everything I wanted out of Cleric from Healer already so I chose not to do that... I was fairly multiclassed at that point, my plain cloth armor was rather pathetic compared to what a biped who took Mage or Warrior to 100 would be able to wear. I didn't WANT to level Mage further at that point, I had already got my multicast and perfect spell mastered, had no reason to level Mage except to get enough armor use so I could FINALLY upgrade beyond plain cloth... with 4 adventure schools and I can't remember how many craft schools already at 100. I had the skill, I had the forms, I had the techniques, I had the components to make myself some good armor, I had the level, I had the right schools for chainmail and could wear t5 armor at level 1 because of my craft schools... BUT not enough armor use.

I play mainly as a Shaman and swap to Healer for epic fights.... I get nothing particularly useful from having leveled Mage aside from the early masterables and armor use. My bread and butter is spirit damage with the capability to stun/root from Druid and plenty of debuffs from Shaman. I honestly don't even know why I have hotkeys for the arcane spells at all, I only ever use the bolts and then rarely when something's extra weak to that kind of damage.

I had already multiclassed into a combination that's proved to be very resilient and quite capable before I leveled Mage... but I couldn't wear anything beyond plain t5 cloth. 4 schools to 100 is quite the grind even with me using Mach to help my biped along, leveling Mage was not a pleasant experience and something I wouldn't have needed to do if I had just TEN more armor use points.

[Guaran]

So you're telling me that padded cloth armor is meant to be "beyond the intended" for Spiritist? That's the second weakest armor in the entire game... they can ONLY wear cloth armor types.

The game is telling you that. And the dev's designed it that way. Arcane is a bit stronger since Mage gets 10AU/level, my guess to make up for the lack of heals/hots that mystics get.

Except the way armor use is implemented makes that argument fall flat... it doesn't take skill to dress yourself right? So you should be able to wear something that's stated as being only marginally better than clothing right? WRONG. You need at least level 81 and 810 armor use to wear t5 plain cloth.... which logically wouldn't be any different from putting on a set of normal clothes except for the materials it's made of. So following your logic, if you are only in a school that gives 8 armor use per level and are at level 100, you're apparently too dumb to put on clothes properly. Same goes for padded cloth, you can't just take a school that gives 9 armor use per level because you'd be stuck 10 armor use points too short to wear that at level 100. Following your logic, at this point you can dress yourself, but you can't put on a bit of padding.

Following YOUR logic, then a level 1 player should get to wear t6 armor... You cannot think of it as knowing how to put clothes on.

...Guaran, your arguement seems to be that you want to force other people to play the game you want them to play it. It also seems to feel like coming from someone who is 'looking down' on others because they don't want to multi-class...

Not at all.


My argument is that it isn't broken.


No one is forcing someone to multiclass. But honestly that is what the biped game is all about.

First, What on earth does armour use have to do with lore, its got no reference to any lore anywhere.

Lol. My quote was

...to just immediately allow say a healer to wear Mithril Chainmail that they should only be strong enough to wear unless they are also a trained Warrior. To me this even makes sense from a lore perspective in the game..

This may not be quoted by any NPC, but it makes logical sense, in as much as a fantasy game can, and it was the thought behind choosing which classes can wear what armor.

And no its not fine (I am assuming your a dragon player otherwise you'd know what you were talking about)

I know what you are talking about.

... I'm currently leveling a biped and had 4 schools at lv20, for ar ating of around 27. Fully teched armor (not fully teched jewelry because I'm lazy, but did have jewelry), and a fully teched, up-to-date casting staff. TPs were allocated appropriate to what I was doing, armor was the best I could wear. Spells were all up to date as well (although not teched. Really, it'd provide a negligible bonus.). And yet the character was having immense difficulty with fighting mobs at lv20. For the record, is was a little piggy things south of Bristugo. I don't know if it's 'intended' that, as a rating 27, I should be struggling with someone well below that rating, but if it is that is extremely irritating, to put it gently.


..


Later I was hunting with a friend, who was only using the warrior class. They had a MUCH easier time surviving and dealing damage than my caster did (not to mention two to three times the armor I had). It feels like it's required to have a crafting school with a level much higher than your adventure class in order for casters to be sufficiently able to survive.

Everyone knows that leveling too many classes at once, at lower levels makes it difficult. New players may not know that, but you are a long time player (I assume). I always tell people to pick one school, take it to 100, then go about your business of leveling this and that.

Would be nice to know the following:
Why did a pure warrior, who at the time didn't have ANY healing schools, only had updated armor going for them, out-tank and out damage my more multi-classed caster, who should've been by rights far stronger?

Why should they be stronger? Paper wearing schools (the spellcasters) start out weaker, and get stronger at higher levels. Warrior is more even as he levels.

How effective are single schools expected to be and why? I've found some schools EXTREMELY lackluster *cough*xbowman*cough*, yet others look super fleshed out and give me 'that looks well designed!' squeals of glee *COUGHACK*bloodmage*ahem*

Issues like this are not going to be fixed by changing armor use.

Well if you want to play a pure mystic biped, and are fine with multiclassing into the different mystic schools... then you're still up a certain creek without a paddle unless you leave the mystic specialization. I had Druid (9/level), Spiritist (8/level), Shaman (8/level), Healer (8/level) to 100 and could have gone for Cleric (9/level) too but I had everything I wanted out of Cleric from Healer already so I chose not to do that... I was fairly multiclassed at that point, my plain cloth armor was rather pathetic compared to what a biped who took Mage or Warrior to 100 would be able to wear. I didn't WANT to level Mage further at that point, I had already got my multicast and perfect spell mastered, had no reason to level Mage except to get enough armor use so I could FINALLY upgrade beyond plain cloth... with 4 adventure schools and I can't remember how many craft schools already at 100. I had the skill, I had the forms, I had the techniques, I had the components to make myself some good armor, I had the level, I had the right schools for chainmail and could wear t5 armor at level 1 because of my craft schools... BUT not enough armor use.

Playing a pure mystic biped will come with limitations.


Playing a melee school only build will come with limitations.


Playing an arcane only caster build will come with limitations.

... but I couldn't wear anything beyond plain t5 cloth. 4 schools to 100 is quite the grind even with me using Mach to help my biped along, leveling Mage was not a pleasant experience and something I wouldn't have needed to do if I had just TEN more armor use points.

That was done on purpose, to specifically keep you from wearing that next armor set without leveling a different school first. Shields are the same way. There are many examples of that in the game.

The above example is the only one where I could see 10 less AU being required. It would be nice if you could, at level 100, jump the last little gap. They allow you to do this if you choose, with shields, by training 10 points in shield use (training beyond that would be a waste). So the shield you can go ahead and upgrade, the armor, no. But I can see an argument, only for when hitting level 100, to allow that barely out of reach gear to be used. But only when in that level 100 school. Maybe some passive +10 AU skill, non-masterable, in a few schools that hit that situation, given only at level 100. Keep it as-is for the lower levels. The reasoning I can see in game that might be compared to, to justify this (only in the case of someone at level 100), is that all t6 gear is wearable at level 100, but if it followed the patterns present at lower levels, then say a t6 priceless necklace should only be able to be equipped at level 114 (Comparing to Armor necklace). We cannot reach that level, therefore at level 100 it is allowed.

[Alisto]

Everyone knows that leveling too many classes at once, at lower levels makes it difficult. New players may not know that, but you are a long time player (I assume). I always tell people to pick one school, take it to 100, then go about your business of leveling this and that.

If I pick one school - say mage - I'm going to die repeatedly and never get anywhere (or it's going to be REALLY hard to do anything). I need cleric to level, and most times warrior (although I could leave a few levels off warrior and be okay). If you read earlier in my post, I said I'd fully armored, spell'd, etc the biped and still had immense trouble with something at the same level.

Why should they be stronger? Paper wearing schools (the spellcasters) start out weaker, and get stronger at higher levels. Warrior is more even as he levels.

Why should a higher level be stronger than a lower level? That's the gist of it...I'm higher rating, shouldn't I be stronger? Or at least more useful? More -something-? My character failed to match up in all areas.

That it isn't the case shows there's something wrong. Also, leveling warrior/some non-mage school to 100 first b efore anything else as the only way to go about it proooobably isn't the best idea for a leveling experience.

Even if I dropped sorcerer (took it for IC reasons) leaving me with mage, cleric and warrior, I still would've fallen short using mage, and even would've lost effectiveness (Spellbind is useful). Three schools at 20 is rating 24. Comparison would stand.

Issues like this are not going to be fixed by changing armor use.

Refer to your recommendation of taking one class to 100, and then going about the rest of it as to why I'm asking that question.

[AmonGwareth]

If I pick one school - say mage - I'm going to die repeatedly and never get anywhere (or it's going to be REALLY hard to do anything). I need cleric to level, and most times warrior (although I could leave a few levels off warrior and be okay). If you read earlier in my post, I said I'd fully armored, spell'd, etc the biped and still had immense trouble with something at the same level.

This is where playing with others comes in. If you cannot kill monsters equal to your rating then you need to re-evaluate your build, acquire better equipment and/or group with other players to maximize your killing potential.

[Guaran]

...Why should a higher level be stronger than a lower level? That's the gist of it...I'm higher rating, shouldn't I be stronger? Or at least more useful? More -something-? My character failed to match up in all areas.

Some mobs are tougher than others. The little piggies you mentioned earlier are among the toughest. In that situation you would want to group up or fight something else.

Also, leveling warrior/some non-mage school to 100 first b efore anything else as the only way to go about it proooobably isn't the best idea for a leveling experience.

That's our opinions and debatable, but doesn't really equate to armor use needing changed.

Refer to your recommendation of taking one class to 100, and then going about the rest of it as to why I'm asking that question.

Taking one class to 100 raises health (to 2500 hp or more), strength, power, focus, armor use, and maybe shield use depending on the school. It's not JUST armor that is affected. Strength or power, depending on the school, will be 700 at a minimum (the few exceptions getting 10 focus/dex and/or evasion per level: Healer/monk/disciples). So the next arcane school will be much stronger thanks to the base power being bumped from the other school at 100.

[Machaeon]

Guaran, I could spend more of my time picking apart your arguments and saying why they make no sense, but clearly that would be a wasted effort. The very valid points I have made you seem to ignore completely. I have never once suggested that a level 1 character should start out with t6 armor... that would be idiotic. Because t6 armor does not even exist for bipeds. And you can have a level 1 character in t5 cloth armor with the game mechanics as they are by the way, you just have to already have your armor use high enough and a craft class to wear it in.

It makes sense to have a game mechanic that limits what gear you can use at a low level even if your rating is high and based on what class you're in, that was never the issue. I just cannot see the reasoning behind adding a seemingly arbitrary restriction on what you can wear if you already have the proper level and class to wear it.

The reason I originally started this thread is not because of me, I've got enough armor use now on my biped, yes I am annoyed that I had to level an essentially unwanted class to get it, but that's secondary to the reason why I made my original post. I put in this suggestion because of friends who started bipeds, they got enamored with Bloodmage and rocketed through the first 20 or so levels together in padded cloth. They weren't as limited as brand-new players to be sure, I was excited to see people starting up a new biped and enjoying it so of course I encouraged that by making armor for them... and why not? I had the forms and the skill, they didn't need to suffer a longer grind because they couldn't get better gear. I had completely forgotten the whole irritation I went through with armor use and once they had a high enough level to wear padded cloth, I made some for them. They were devastated, confused, and annoyed that they were unable to wear something that they would otherwise be able to if they had a class leveled alongside Bloodmage that provided enough armor use... they did have at least 3 other schools going besides but Bloodmage was their focus. Not long after that they stopped playing their bipeds because the fun was gone at that point... the prospect of increasing their rating further at such a low level and leveling something they would never use except for the armor use was nightmarish to them.

These weren't new players. They knew what to expect in the game, with dragons at least. They had a plan for what they wanted with their bipeds, knowing what the different classes they were taking would provide. Brand new players don't know how to really play the game at this stage, they don't have all the forms to make their gear, they don't know where to find the things to get their gear crafted by someone else, and they wouldn't know that focusing on certain classes without something to give that 10 armor use/level that's required even for plain cloth past t1 would become an utter pain later on. But they certainly find out when they hit a wall like that, and few biped players stick around because of that.

Right now I feel about as defeated as those players did, not because I've seen where I might have been wrong or because you made a valid argument... but because a suggestion to help remove some of the already massive amounts of confusion players face with bipeds is just falling on deaf ears. You needn't reply, Guaran, I'm done here... I regret starting this thread now that it's been made clear that everyone's time has been wasted here. Change is bad, isn't it?

[Alisto]

Some mobs are tougher than others. The little piggies you mentioned earlier are among the toughest. In that situation you would want to group up or fight something else.

The part you quoted was while I was hunting with others, not attacking the piggies alone. We were smacking things ~10 levels/rating (or more)above us.

This is where playing with others comes in

Not always (or even most of the time) a valid solution considering the population/range of levels. As for build/armor, I already have better than what most new players would have at that stage in the game, but *gestures at below sentence*

Will answer the rest later. My biped isn't missing much, and probably has more than the vast majority of new players would at that point, but I'll add some stuff just to be thorough and then see what happens.

[LOVWYRM]

We have to find a compromise or another solution (according to how the game is set up) here,
or we will never succeed in holding new or returning players in Istaria.

I said it in so many threads before: The first level lets say 30-40 are a pain-not fun.
And for bipeds its so much harder than for drags.
Yes, a lot has been done- but is not enough by far.
My opinion: Fun starts at t4- and thats a long way if you have to play alone
(or -if you are lucky with 1 or 2 other new players).

This is where playing with others comes in. If you cannot kill monsters equal to your rating then you need to re-evaluate your build, acquire better equipment and/or group with other players to maximize your killing potential.[/COLOR]

Playing with others? How- if all other have their fun with endgame content- be it craft or adventure.
Which groups??? There is no real player base in t1, t2 or t3.

Re-evaluate the build, better equippment? How, if a newbie has no idea what is possible, or how-to,
or if he/she wants to be a crafter only or adventurer only.
Vet players help with all and everything- but thats not the solution- a player should be able to come to Istaria and improve without help (THOUGH its an mmo!)- until he /she knows Istaria and the community better.
No player should depend on others to have a good start into our game.
So here an old suggestion again:
Make it much easier for players until end of t2 (start with armor use^^)
- then increase, so that at the end of t3 the player has "same conditions" as we all have.
We need a player base in lower tiers- a new player has to bring his/her friends, cause it is FUN from the first log-in, not a burden until they have catched up with all the other Istarians.
Sorry if that was a derail..

Edit: Well spoken Machaeon. I agree with you. Lets not give up that early:-)

[Guaran]

...I said it in so many threads before: The first level lets say 30-40 are a pain-not fun.
And for bipeds its so much harder than for drags.
Yes, a lot has been done- but is not enough by far.
My opinion: Fun starts at t4- and thats a long way if you have to play alone
(or -if you are lucky with 1 or 2 other new players).

Playing with others? How- if all other have their fun with endgame content- be it craft or adventure.
Which groups??? There is no real player base in t1, t2 or t3.

Re-evaluate the build, better equippment? How, if a newbie has no idea what is possible, or how-to,
or if he/she wants to be a crafter only or adventurer only.
Vet players help with all and everything- but thats not the solution- a player should be able to come to Istaria and improve without help (THOUGH its an mmo!)- until he /she knows Istaria and the community better.
No player should depend on others to have a good start into our game.
So here an old suggestion again:
Make it much easier for players until end of t2 (start with armor use^^)
- then increase, so that at the end of t3 the player has "same conditions" as we all have.
We need a player base in lower tiers- a new player has to bring his/her friends, cause it is FUN from the first log-in, not a burden until they have catched up with all the other Istarians...

Completely agree that that anything making the game fun, in early tiers, is a good thing. All suggestions along those lines, deserve their own thread.

I don't think removing armor use is going to magically fix the new player experience...

More likely, the t1 t2 mobs that tend to be tougher, such as skulks and gruoks, be nerfed, not social, something along those lines. Or NPC helpers that will group with new solo players can cast heals or something for players up to level 50.. NPC's that can be greeted to give level appropriate buffs to new players. Or just start everyone out with 1000 hp, and only add more hp once they level past the point in the adv schools, that would naturally raise it beyond that amount.

Completely valid point that the majority of the player base is not t1 t2 or t3 players.

[Alisto]

I don't think removing armor use is going to magically fix the new player experience...

Neither will anything you suggest. Or pretty much anything suggested ever for an MMO. Totally invalid reason to not do something...and even if there was a 'magic fix' it'd probably break something else. I've found that most improvements come from smaller fixes.

It doesnt magically fix everything so let's not do it, bah *grumblegrumble*

[AmonGwareth]

More likely, the t1 t2 mobs that tend to be tougher, such as skulks and gruoks, be nerfed, not social, something along those lines.

Difficulty is subjective. Monsters that one player finds difficult aren't for another. Monsters that a biped might find difficult might not be for a Dragon and vice versa. As Alisto said, smaller fixes may have more impact than large changes that come with lots of potential bugs and uncertainty. Name some specific monsters that are difficult for more than just one person and we can look at them.

[Calyndrell]

Difficulty is subjective. Monsters that one player finds difficult aren't for another. Monsters that a biped might find difficult might not be for a Dragon and vice versa. As Alisto said, smaller fixes may have more impact than large changes that come with lots of potential bugs and uncertainty. Name some specific monsters that are difficult for more than just one person and we can look at them.[/COLOR]

ok erm the skulks.. cos they are very groupy.. (level 20-30)
gruoks on trandalar (level 40-50)

those are the two i remember struggling with

[Tilithia]

gruoks on trandalar (level 40-50)

I don't know if boars rage is tiered and % raises together with tiers but that's what hurts most,maybe it could use some decrease in power,from 200 to maybe 120% ? or increase % with tier lv.
Id like to add wolves to this list,all types.

[Guaran]

Neither will anything you suggest. Or pretty much anything suggested ever for an MMO. Totally invalid reason to not do something...and even if there was a 'magic fix' it'd probably break something else. I've found that most improvements come from smaller fixes.

It doesnt magically fix everything so let's not do it, bah *grumblegrumble*

I never said there are not things that could be fixed, improved, tweaked, etc.

As far as the difficult gruoks, I think its perfectly ok for SOME monsters to be tougher. Tougher in general, tougher for some classes but easier for others... Again, in that situation you can go hunt something else until you are able to handle them, come back in a few levels (if hunting those for some specific purpose such as comps, or trade for the comps).

The argument that some mobs are too tough, to me, is not an argument to change how armor works. Everything in the game is laid out in a methodical pattern, and it starts out kind of difficult. This is the game we play.

My first level 100 I did not reach until first week of may in 2004, having started in December 2003. Months! And I was playing every day. I did swap back and forth between dragon and biped, but the dragon was getting the most play, hit 100 about about 4.5 months of playtime. I was wearing a platinum health necklace from level 79 on. I didn't get my last obsidian scale until level 70 (don't think we had back or tail scales yet). Went to 100 in t4 scales, teched with t3 techs. The biped went to 100 in t4 cobalt armor, teched with t3 techs. All I am trying to point out, is that a slowly progressing character was fun to play. The game wasn't broke in its overall design. And not having t5 armor triple teched, t5 padded cloth, or whatever, just ruined everything. You have far better armor today. Having to multiclass so that your prestige class can wear his max armor isn't a bad thing.

Arguments that a single school should just be able to have the max, just because, I think misses the point of the game.

Players choosing to play in a single school do so full well knowing it will have some limitations. There's no reason to change which armor you get at what levels and for what schools because someone says "I just want to be cleric and nothing else!" That is a nonsense argument.

Everything in the game is laid out with multiple limitations in place. Level is only one. Spells have spell-skill in addition to a level requirement. It exactly parallels the argument that armor use limits you from using a piece of armor at the exact level requirement stated on the armor. A level 80 spirit bolt requiring 800 spirit skill, but my reaver is only getting 7 skill per level! OMG we should get rid of spirit skill, isn't the level requirement enough!?!?! Shields have the same, both a level requirement as well as a shield use requirement. Weapons, both a level requirement and a weapon skill requirement. All of these have parallel examples of characters reaching the level requirement but not having the skill yet.

This is all deeply ingrained in the games design. Go and change one thing, and it could possibly have other impacts. At the very least, I would not be one bit surprised if a year after armor use was just removed, that another argument about shield use, spell skills, weapon skills, would all be made based on the same logic as this thread. Classes are balanced against each other with the dual usage requirements on everything. Looking at one class, or even one experience misses the reasons used in the overall design.

Take a step back and think about it logically. Don't reply with some heated emotional disagreement until you really step back and look at how the game works in a broader sense.