Dragon natural armor and Istarian lore

[Jaraiden]

Natural armor per AE and Istarian lore:

- (IG racial bonus) Armored Scales: Dragon scales provide excellent defense in physical combat. Scales mature as dragons progress concurrently giving them more protection.
- (Character description, Special Ability) Armored Scales: Dragon Scales provide excellent defense in physical combat. Scales mature as dragons progress concurrently giving them more protection. This is an innate ability and requires no action.
- (Character description, lore) A Dragon?s skin is covered with thick scales, offering better protection than the majority of the armors the Living Races use.

So what are thick scales providing "excellent defense in physical combat . . . offering better protection than the majority of the armors of the Living Races use"? It seems reasonable to apply to biped body armor (not Armor teched armor and not Armor jewelry). Of course, it is likely that most pieces of biped armor will have the Armor tech (especially when tripled teched). However, that seems to be by intelligent design for such a compounding armor bonus. The order of armor of the living races goes from Cloth/padded, Hide/leather, Ringmail/chainmail, Scalemail/platemail. To me Scalemail seems a fitting comparison, "so named due to its resemblence to dragon scales if offers protection only surpassed by platemail with lighter weight and greater ease of movement."

Okay, levels 21, 41, 61, 81 comparisons then

Dragon 21 is 184 armor = 80 natural armor + 20 hardened scales + 84 armor (hoard)
Dragon 41 is 409 armor = 160 natural armor + 40 hardened scales + 164 armor (hoard) + 45 (adult)
Dragon 61 is 545 armor = 240 natural armor + 60 hardened scales + 200 armor (at 50 hoard) + 45 (adult)
Dragon 81 is 645 armor = 320 natural armor + 80 hardened scales + 200 armor (at 50 hoard) + 45 (adult)

Biped Scalemail with no shield, no mask, and not Armor teched:
Ironis 305 = 25 helm, 25 chest, 25 belt, 25 legs, 25 boots, 70 shoulderpads (2), 28 sleeves, 50 bracers (2), 25 gauntlets, kenaf 7 cape
Steelis 522 = 46 helm, 46 chest, 46 belt, 46 legs, 46 boots, 92 shoulderpads (2), 46 sleeves, 92 bracers (2), 46 gauntlets, 16 cotton cape
Cobaltis 810 = 71 helm, 71 chest, 71 belt, 71 legs, 71 boots, 142 shoulderpads (2), 71 sleeves, 142 bracers (2), 71 gauntlets, 29 silk cape
Mithrilis 1134 = 100 helm, 100 chest, 100 belt, 100 legs, 100 boots, 200 shoulderpads (2), 88 sleeves, 200 bracers (2), 100 gauntlets, 46 ironsilk cape

Edit: Corrected math on iron, oh these numbers are coming from the outdated Official Strategy Guide

In summary, if the numbers are correct, thick scales providing "excellent defense in physical combat . . . offering better protection than the majority of the armors" are seriously lacking:
Dragon at 21 is 121 behind (corrected math)
Dragon at 41 is 113 behind
Dragon at 61 is 265 behind
Dragon at 81 is 489 behind

So without scale jewelry (not innate) and very difficult to achieve hoard levels (51 to 100), Dragon natural armor falls behind VERY fast compared to unteched scalemail. Shields are not considered because they are not body armor and their contribution to armor should only be against 1 to 3 monsters (the other monsters should easily bypass the shield's effect on armor). Masks are just strange as an aspect of armor (invisible more so). Armor from jewelry will be comparable - dragons have 10 slots (at 90, 7 at 60) to the 7 biped jewelry slots - maintaining the overall status quo.

Solution 1: Adult ability beginning at level 40 of + 4 armor/level (retroactive to level 1). Another + 2 armor/level upon attaining Ancient (retroactive). This is per lore of "innate ability" as dragons mature so no quest needed. So to compare, adult is + 164 at 41, + 244 at 61, and + 324 at 81.

Solution 2: Armor at 6/level and hoard armor bonus of 2/level (closer to Official Strategy Guide's Armor of 6/level, but it did not mention hoard). Adult + 4/level at 50 (retroactive to 1) and Ancient + 2/level (retroactive to 1)
Dragon 21 is 182 armor = 120 natural armor + 20 hardened scales + 42 armor (hoard)
Dragon 41 is 407 armor = 240 natural armor + 40 hardened scales + 82 armor (hoard) + 45 (adult)
Dragon 61 is 809 armor = 360 natural armor + 60 hardened scales + 100 armor (at 50 hoard) + 45 (adult) + 244
Dragon 81 is 1029 armor = 480 natural armor + 80 hardened scales + 100 armor (at 50 hoard) + 45 (adult) + 324

This should be comparable at level 100, but don't have reliable numbers for that high.

A note on hoard and armor - "Dragons seem to feed (in the figurative sense) off of the size of their hoards, giving them added power." I find it hard to understand how armor is connected to hoard size and feeding off of it. Is it inspired by fantasy literature? Hoard powered Silver strike and Gold rage use hoard for extra melee power. Gold shield uses hoard (an expensive defense, especially due to weak natural armor) for defense power. There are no hoard powered spells. Again, though, game design related to lore I don't understand (as in why are not the other statistics or skills based on hoard size besides armor and breath weapon damage?).

- - - -

Will edit as needed when more reliable armor numbers are known.
Edit 1: Corrected Iron

[evilkarl]

The order of biped armour is
cloth/padded, hide/leather, ring/chain, scale/plate.

The first of each par being the first 10 of a tier and the second being the second 10 of a tier.

Now of the biped classes only knoc, warrior, chsw, cleric, paladin ,reaver and battlemage may wear scale/plate. thats 7/21 classes that can. Is this most ? no

However even comparing to chain dragon armour falls short and it shouldn't My solution

4ac/level as hatchling
8ac/level as adult retroactivley applied to min level. So if you RoP at 50 (like you ******** well should) it will be applied backwards to 30
10-12ac/level as ancient again retroactibley applied to min level.

Lets assume ancient has a level requirement of 100 for the purposes below
so 4*30+70*8 = 680 base.

Add in hoard armour increase, Hardened scales, and then scale slots and this would give you more than most biped armour.

[Vesuvius]

Giving adultdragons a flat out 8ac a level bonus would be a bit too easy, in my opinion.

Changing the adult bonus to hoard on the otherhand to 8ac instead of 4ac I think would be a better way to go, and a start to making hoard actually worth it.

[Guaran]

If you ask me it makes more sense for hoard to grant additional strength and power, to both Lunus and Helian, but more strength than power for Lunus, and more power than strength for Helian. The breath weapon bonus I dont think works. My breath skill is at 1000 for a level 100, varying hoard levels it never changes. Having hoard tied to the attacks we already have seems fitting, although I think the drain rate is a bit much. Hoard spellsI think are coming. If the rates of drain compare to Gold Rage and Silver strike as they currenty are, I can't see myself using them all that much. Having armor boosted by hoard, I can't really see how this makes sense. We have valuables in a hoard stashed somewhere, and we get armor from it? And now, 2 attacks that 'drain' it a bit each use.

I think a better hoard solution would be this:
No drain at all for anything.

For attacks that are hoard powered, instead of having them DRAIN our hoard, we get the level of ability based on our hoard level. For example, if gold rage VII currently requires level 70 and a quest, instead make it so that you need a level 70's hoard level to be granted that attacks use. No drain. Just if you have very low hoard, you only can use gold rage 1, even if you are level 100.

Same thing for the upcoming spells. No drain for using the spells, but if you have insufficient hoard, then you can't use the attacks AT ALL. Gold Rage 1 could be lvl 20 hoard level, and adv level 20. At level 20, if you have the sufficient hoard, then you can use it. Same idea for hoard powered spells. Hoard level requirement which will grant the increasingly powered versions.

THIS would make hoard have a real value. However once it's been earned (VERY TOUGH TO DO as it is) it isn't lost. Same thing for Gold Shield. it's already on a 20 or 30 minute timer, why does it need to cost hoard and a gift slot as well? (The gift slot thing makes itimpractical to use in a harried battle). Give it varying levels of shielding, depending on hoard level, and not draining hoard. The long timer is enough to keep it from being unbalancing. As it is I would rather die than waste 5 to 10k hoard using it. (Like I said, hoard is VERY hard to come by as it is).

That all being said, the armor bonus from hoard doesn't make all that much sense. The amount we get from it currently, should just be added to base we get for adventure levels. On top of that, the amount needs to increase dramatically at adulthood. Currently we get 4 armor per adv level + 4 per hoard level which can't exceed adventure level. so at a max we can get 8 per level. Adulthood no change. 8 per level for hatchling is probably sufficient. At adulthood a retroactive to level increase to 10 or 12 per level makes sense according to lore (which says we have innate armor surpassing biped armor), and common sense. A tiny ****** little gnome of same level as a dragoncan have alot more total armor than a dragon can. There's really no common sense in that.

Guaran

[Jaraiden]

Evilkarl thanks for the armor update. Now about the thick scales giving "excellent defense in physical combat . . . offering better protection than the majority of the armors the Living Races use" . . . that only seems to fit chainmail? If you equate "Living Races" to just the Gifted then you must account for the degree of Armor teching the "majority" of the Living Races (= Gifted) do on their armor items. Let's keep it simple.

If the majority of classess cannot use Scalemail, then comparing a dragon's thick scalesto Scalemale seems fitting (that better than majority thing). And don't forget, are not most of the town guards warrior types also in heavy armor? Need to account for them amid the "majority" of the Living Races.

Even if a Scalemail comparison is deemed too much armor, then natural dragon armor had certainly be much better than unteched Chainmail. Don't forget, I left out face mask and shield (do the majority of the Living Races use a shield?). Also, do the majority of the Living Races have at least someArmor teching on Chainmail?

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Ves, please read the highlighted below.
- (IG racial bonus) Armored Scales: Dragon scales provide excellent defense in physical combat. Scales mature as dragons progress concurrently giving them more protection.
- (Character description, Special Ability) Armored Scales: Dragon Scales provide excellent defense in physical combat. Scales mature as dragons progress concurrently giving them more protection. This is an innate ability and requires no action.
- (Character description, lore) A Dragon?s skin is covered with thick scales, offering better protection than the majority of the armors the Living Races use.
Natural armor = underlying fat layer and thick scales more so than a pile of gold and treasure represented in a lair. A hatchling is transformed into an adult, an adult is transformed into an Ancient . . . larger sizes =thicker scales = more natural armor. Don't you agree?

Granted, hoard requires some action, thus the comparison to the 1 million hoard at level 50. On the game mechanics side, yes, over time dragons can raise (earn or otherwise) the gold to pay biped crafters (and/or hoardcraftwith biped crafters) to raise their hoard the higher levels. I am saying that natural armor (per Istarian lore and fantasy) is more geared toward growth (aging) than a distant pile of treasure.

- - - -

If AE is going to go through the effort of creating lore, they might as well have game mechanics to support that lore. And we, as players, should offer lore based suggestions to improve the playing experience.

[evilkarl]

I like your idea for gold rage, Have it gained at a certain hoard level. this could be applied in other ways. Have your main BOF reduce its timer to 1 minute keep it aoe and its current damage. Add in some hoard powered breath ability that does BOF*(Hoardlevel/10) still aoe and it would be much more effective. Gift it a 5 or 10 minute timer and minimal hoard usage based on level.

I also agree that hoard should increase, str/t&c or power/primal and probably hp for both.

[evilkarl]

If the majority of classess cannot use Scalemail, then comparing a dragon's thick scalesto Scalemale seems fitting (that better than majority thing). And don't forget, are not most of the town guards warrior types also in heavy armor? Need to account for them amid the "majority" of the Living Races.

Guards vary. There is a guard for every biped class several for some in fact. Many members of the living races such as npcs wear no armour at all. For the settlements the guards do seem to be mostly weak warriors.

Even if a Scalemail comparison is deemed too much armor, then natural dragon armor had certainly be much better than unteched Chainmail. Don't forget, I left out face mask and shield (do the majority of the Living Races use a shield?). Also, do the majority of the Living Races have at least someArmor teching on Chainmail?

Unteched chain is wearable by many more and would be more of a standard than scale/plate which is biped bodily protection taken to the extreme. Unteched chain still provides about 1400 armour.

Natural armor = underlying fat layer and thick scales more so than a pile of gold and treasure represented in a lair. A hatchling is transformed into an adult, an adult is transformed into an Ancient . . . larger sizes =thicker scales = more natural armor. Don't you agree?

So you think your underlying fat and thick scales should be equivilant to thick plates of cobalt or mithril forged together to form a suit?

[Vesuvius]

Evilkarl thanks for the armor update. Now about the thick scales giving "excellent defense in physical combat . . . offering better protection than the majority of the armors the Living Races use" . . . that only seems to fit chainmail? If you equate "Living Races" to just the Gifted then you must account for the degree of Armor teching the "majority" of the Living Races (= Gifted) do on their armor items. Let's keep it simple.

If the majority of classess cannot use Scalemail, then comparing a dragon's thick scalesto Scalemale seems fitting (that better than majority thing). And don't forget, are not most of the town guards warrior types also in heavy armor? Need to account for them amid the "majority" of the Living Races.

Even if a Scalemail comparison is deemed too much armor, then natural dragon armor had certainly be much better than unteched Chainmail. Don't forget, I left out face mask and shield (do the majority of the Living Races use a shield?). Also, do the majority of the Living Races have at least someArmor teching on Chainmail?

- - - -

Ves, please read the highlighted below.
- (IG racial bonus) Armored Scales: Dragon scales provide excellent defense in physical combat. Scales mature as dragons progress concurrently giving them more protection.
- (Character description, Special Ability) Armored Scales: Dragon Scales provide excellent defense in physical combat. Scales mature as dragons progress concurrently giving them more protection. This is an innate ability and requires no action.
- (Character description, lore) A Dragon?s skin is covered with thick scales, offering better protection than the majority of the armors the Living Races use.
Natural armor = underlying fat layer and thick scales more so than a pile of gold and treasure represented in a lair. A hatchling is transformed into an adult, an adult is transformed into an Ancient . . . larger sizes =thicker scales = more natural armor. Don't you agree?

Granted, hoard requires some action, thus the comparison to the 1 million hoard at level 50. On the game mechanics side, yes, over time dragons can raise (earn or otherwise) the gold to pay biped crafters (and/or hoardcraftwith biped crafters) to raise their hoard the higher levels. I am saying that natural armor (per Istarian lore and fantasy) is more geared toward growth (aging) than a distant pile of treasure.

- - - -

If AE is going to go through the effort of creating lore, they might as well have game mechanics to support that lore. And we, as players, should offer lore based suggestions to improve the playing experience.

Many people like to make the argument about hoard being this or that and shouldnt add armor or health or whatever else.

Dragons are also very possessive creatures; what a Dragon owns is of paramount importance. Dragons keep hoards of gold, resources, and items in secret caches known only to them; Dragons seem to feed (in the figurative sense) off of the size of their hoards, giving them added power.

Hoard is supposed to make a dragon stronger, more powerful. This equates to being tougher, harder to kill, more deadly.

Armorclass, hitpoints, stats,resists, breath damage, other damage, special attacks... these are nothing more than ingame representation of 'power'. They are numbers used to gauge it, nothing more.

So when you look at it from a lore perspective, no maybe hoard isnt specificallymaking a dragons scales harder, but it is making him stronger in a figurative sense. That strength is represented through game mechanics, game mechanics including armor class.

My argument does not conflict with the lore at all. AE could make hoard have little or none to do with AC and just make it per level of adv, thats fine, that fits with the lore as well. I just see this as one place to start making hoard more worth it.

[Marco]

So you think your underlying fat and thick scales should be equivilant to thick plates of cobalt or mithril forged together to form a suit?

Looks so doesnt it?
But how about studded leather armor? That one feels right for me.

[Vesuvius]

So you think your underlying fat and thick scales should be equivilant to thick plates of cobalt or mithril forged together to form a suit?

For an adult? Absolutely. First of all, that platemail you wear is not all that thick, if it were, you would be unable to move. Secondly, there is no telling what dragonscales are composed of, it is quite possible they are made of an advanced natural material with incredible lightweight properties (Spidersilk is a great example of a Real-life substance like this). Not only that, but a dragon is huge. A blow that could decapitate a biped would mabey scratch a dragon's foreleg, a bludgeon that could smash a biped's head in would do nothing more than agitate a dragon due to the physics of the sheer mass difference. The converse would apply to a dragon's damage as well. For an ancient this applies even more.

You can take a look at fantasy even. InLord of the Rings, mithril was 'hard as dragonscales, light as a feather'. In others many exotic and powerful armors were made from dragonscales. Obviously they held considerable value for protection.

[Vesuvius]

Heh, thats ****************, it decided:

M
A
S
S

is a bad word. Pff.

[Jaraiden]

Studded leather, chainmail, scalemail . . .it is all summed into an Armor number. Essence leather or Steel chainmail or steel scalemail it is in the construction. A sword is seeking a vital area - more vital areas easier to damage beneath the biped scalemail than that of a dragon beneath the thick scales and vastly larger body volume. So the Armor number should account for that (and yes Dryads are evasively smaller, but that is balanced by similar damage they do in their small form).

Get back to the the lore:
- (Character description, Special Ability) Armored Scales: Dragon Scales provide excellent defense in physical combat. Scales mature as dragons progress concurrently giving them more protection. This is an innate ability and requires no action.
- (Character description, lore) A Dragon?s skin is covered with thick scales, offering better protection than the majority of the armors the Living Races use.Lets not dwell on realism aspects of armor because then you will, naturally, want to compare armor value of boots, bracers, face mask, etc.relative to the protection offered by the chest armor and want to adjust them accordingly. Also, account for thelimits of the shield in blocking attacks from monsters behind the character. That, as you know, will get ugly, however, I seem to recall AE is taking a look at the Armor Use system which may extend to this.

[evilkarl]

They do provide excellent defense in physical combat. Just not as excellent as it could be :).

To have 400+ armour without any equipment is pretty excellent. lets see how many bipeds have 400 armour without equipment or buffs?

It should provide more protection but as much as scale/plate NO. Not until ancient at least. At present your scales provide better protection than cloth, padded cloth, hide, leather and ring (not 100%) out of the 8 types available to the living races thats the majority :)

The ac/level should go up with adult and then again with ancient I won't dispute that or disagree. But The lore is correct it is better than the majority of armours bipeds have access to.

[evilkarl]

I know one who has 1600...but then He has maxed hoard and might have had biped buffs as well.

1600 is more than I have in my unteched mithril chain with t5 buffs from memory

[Vesuvius]

It is possible, selfbuffed with max hoard and T5 armor scales to just reach over 1.6k (1631 or so).

However, considering the amount of effort it takes to get max hoard, the bonus is a joke.

You also said unteched chain. That makes a big difference for a biped. 20 or so slots at +20 ac each is alot of missing ac. Dragon armor scales cannot be teched with Armor.

T5 Buffs as in ehnahce armor/health and gift of armor / health?

Jewlery, sheild, cloak?

Special defenses such as block and dodge, parry.

A typical high level biped can pretty easily out armor a likewise high level dragon. Not to mention heals ect.

Dragon defense is inadequet. We should have our evades reduced greatly and our resistance, armorclass, and hit points greatly raised.

[Vahrokh]

Dragon defense is inadequet. We should have our evades reduced greatly and our resistance, armorcl***, and hit points greatly raised.

... or simply let us earn them instead of caging us with artificious 100/100 limits.
Like ie questing for added stats eating the excess of exp after 100 instead of leaving it to rot.

[Vesuvius]

(Its actually 480ac for 100 hoard and 500 for 10 armor scales. There is an additional 80ac at hoard level 100 and they fixed the tail scale to only give 50)

So the total is 1665. Regardless, max hoard is worth much more than 480ac. A biped gets its armor for merely leveling up. A dragon does things such as hoard and quests to still be subpar.

[evilkarl]

No dragons get armour for leveling up. Bipeds have to buy armour and only get an increase every 10 levels for their suit of armour. Not all classes gain armour use at a rate of 10/level infact most don't so many are well behind at times.

The increases granted by hoard if they must goto armour should increase post 50. ******** stupid the way it is

[Vesuvius]

Dragons get some armor from leveling up, yes. Buying armor is a trivial task for a biped and dragons still have scales they have to buy and hoard they have to grind. The majority of a high level dragon's ac will come from scales.

A good deal of biped classes gets at least 9 armoruse per level and any well multiclassed character will have something in there for 10AU a level (probably mage or conjurer).

Regardless, I have found it much easier to get armorclass up as a biped than as a dragon. Clearly less effort for greater reward on the biped-side.

Dragons need a boost defensively in some form just as they do in about everyother area.

[Jah]

Many people like to make the argument about hoard being this or that and shouldnt add armor or health or whatever else.

Dragons are also very possessive creatures; what a Dragon owns is of paramount importance. Dragons keep hoards of gold, resources, and items in secret caches known only to them; Dragons seem to feed (in the figurative sense) off of the size of their hoards, giving them added power. Hoard is supposed to make a dragon stronger, more powerful. This equates to being tougher, harder to kill, more deadly.
AE could make hoard have little or none to do with AC and just make it per level of adv, thats fine, that fits with the lore as well.

When a Dragon is 1st created it, before it joins craft or adv and regardless of which path it follows... a Dragon has hoard and 2 racial abilities ~flame breath [ useable ] and armor scaleswhich arenotuseable outside of a class[ should have 4 armor to start IMO, but doesn't ]..Hoard boosts that which is an integral part of Dragon. In other words, it boosts a dragon's racial abilities. I fail to see how that isn't a concept that fit's lore.