Server Merge

[Schwarz]

I know what you’re thinking - “How could you dare suggest a server merge? The last merges were awful! The game will look like it’s dying if we merge the servers! Order needs to exist as a place for role-play!! What about Order people’s plots?! What about their community? The devs already said it doesn’t cost them much to keep another server up, so why bother changing that?!”

So let me answer those questions -
(Side note - this theoretical quote isn’t meant to be a ‘stereotypical dumb anti-merger’ thing)

How could you dare suggest a server merge?

As it is right now, Order is, unfortunately, a dead server. I can’t put it any other way; last year it so when the last merge thread went up, it was livable. Had around 20-30 players average during the months of no double EXP. It was enough to do epic hunts and play content and introduce new players to the game.

Now, it averages 5. I’m not joking; every weekday I have logged in, there is between 3 and 7 players online. The absolute max it hit was on a Friday night and that was 18 people. On Saturday night, there was 8. This isn’t enough people to play the game’s content anymore; epic hunts are out of the question. Finishing epic quests are out of the question. Even rift runs are out of the question most of the time since most people online in these numbers are actually bipeds.

For months, the players of Order tried their hardest to campaign for the server; we suggested Chaos players copy over for events, we dragged newbies into groups immediately to show that the server has people on it, we helped anyone new that we saw; it wasn’t enough. Newbie after newbie has left the server and returning player after returning player has followed, too.

For years, the server has been on a steady decline; in 2012, you could have 40-50+ players on, just like Chaos today. In 2013, it started hovering around 40. 2014, 30-40. 2015, 20-30. 2016, 10-25. This year.. 5-15. It’s a very clear pattern; Order isn’t retaining players. The server is fading away.

The last merges were awful!

Yes, they were. However, there is something extremely important people are overlooking when comparing the old merges to this one; the old merges were when hundreds of people played the game at any given time across the merged servers. You had populations of 50+ converging; three or four servers into one new server. It was shoving fish into a puddle and expecting them to swim.

This is merging an active 20-30 total people into a server that has a total of 100-150 active people. It’s very, very different.

The game will look like it’s dying if we merge the servers!

That depends on how you spin it. Many games these days use instancing, which basically makes servers invalid; Elder Scrolls Online uses one megaserver. Different servers aren’t really necessary. Merging the servers could be modernizing.

While it would probably be better for Istaria to use instances instead of merging the servers entirely, the technology doesn’t support that as far as we know…

Either way, the game is not dying. Order is dying.

Order needs to exist as a place for role-play!!

Order being the only server with role-play is a sad misconception. Yes, it’s specialized for role-play, but if you’ve ever played on Order recently, you need to realise that the only RP that happens is in the RP channel unless it’s organised between friends. Chaos has an RP channel, too, that has activity. It’s no different.

The only real thing that Order would need to be separate for in the role-play line of things is public and random RP where you assume the others are always in-character. This simply hasn’t been a thing on Order in years. That’s really all I can tell you; it’s not something that happens anymore. A sad truth, but truth regardless.

What about Order people’s plots?!

This is the biggest problem. This was suggested in the Discord:

1. 100% novian reimbursement from all structures
2. 100% reimbursement on cost

Furthermore, if the person’s plot on Order is unowned on Chaos, ownership would simply transfer. It was suggested to transfer the structures, too, but I don’t remember if that was possible.

The issue arises with plot conflicts. The big questions are these:

1. What do we do with someone who owns an empty sleeper plot on Chaos conflicting with someone’s plot on Order that is active and built? Does the Chaos player get the boot?
2. What do we do if there are two active players with two well-placed and active plots? Who gets the boot then?

So that would need to be figured out…

What about their community?
This is part of the response given by the devs as to why Order isn’t merged with Chaos right now - “Order players prefer their plots and smaller community”.

So the former was just addressed, but community, well… the idea of Order having a small and welcoming community came from when Order did. Right now there is no community unless you’re on on Friday nights; 5 people can’t be considered a community. Beforehand, the 15-25 people Order had could be considered a tight-knit community. It just… isn’t like that anymore. The community has faded with time. It’s a very sad truth.

The people who made up the bulk of the community at this point have mostly moved to Chaos already, copied there, or have quit the game entirely. Those left are the ones who do not want to go to Chaos for their own reasons or can’t afford it.

The devs already said it doesn’t cost them much to keep another server up, so why bother changing that?!

This is where the biggest and final pushes for the merge come in:

Order is driving away new and returning players.

This sounds cruel, but you have to think about it. You’re joining a brand new MMORPG - *massively multiplayer* online rpg. You pop up in, say, Skalkaar and look around. No one. Okay… that’s strange, but it’s an old MMO. It’s either quiet or instanced, right? So you go through the tutorial and pop out in the first real town. Still quiet. You run through the trial until lvl 15 and you still see no one except maybe 1 other newbie.

This game has to be dead, right? No use paying for it. You leave.

Even if this newbie joined the chat channels, they would be seeing a handful of other people online (usually only 80% of Order is in market, so if 10 are online, 8 are in market). A good lot of these people are rather quiet unless bothered.

In a MASSIVELY multiplayer game, you are seeing such a small number of people you can count it on your fingers. This doesn’t bode well for the game and, again, you quit.

This isn’t just an exaggerated situation; I have watched newbie after newbie after newbie join and quit. There have been more newbies joining Order and quitting than there are people actively logging into Order. It’s a very real situation; Order is driving away new players, which we desperately need to keep going on.

Now, old players. You played about 5 years ago, say, and you want to come back for some good ol’ Istaria and its RP. You log in… and there’s only 6 people online. Of those, only 1 RP. You don’t know any of them. How long are you going to stay? You can’t do anything with just 6 people on your old ancient; starting a new character doesn’t sound fun if there’s no one to develop its story with.

Thus, you quit.

While I don’t know their reasoning, something similar to this happened really recently. A huge surge of old players came to Order, knocking the numbers way up to 20-30 averages again. However, this was at the tail end of double EXP; the seasonal players left. Once the number dropped below 20, there was little to keep these returning players interested. There was little to do. So they left and don’t really bother logging in unless there’s good reason to.

They are one big friend group and if they get bored playing, they can all go play another game together. One friend group can make or break the amount of players on a server with this population.

And thus, we are down to averaging 5.

So, do you see the reasoning behind this? Please try to understand; we don’t want to merge the servers because “hey, lol, screw Order, who needs an rp server?” or “wow these people need to grow up and merge in lol”. It’s for the game’s future; it’s for the game’s content; it’s for the sake of the game itself.

Please give it a little thought before giving a kneejerk response and please be civil. We don’t want this thread locked like the last one!

[Ming]

This has been discussed already. What you say about the server population is true. I often see about 3 players altho some might
be on and not visible. We did manage to get a small group for Surtheim a few days ago, but we had to go on Discord and
the group was ten dragons and 3 healers, and could have used more. There is also now the issue that Order players have paid to copy their toons over to Chaos and they didn't get 100 percent novians. Order is still a community but it feels sad at times.

[Machaeon]

What about Order people’s plots?!

This is the biggest problem. This was suggested in the Discord:

1. 100% novian reimbursement from all structures
2. 100% reimbursement on cost

Furthermore, if the person’s plot on Order is unowned on Chaos, ownership would simply transfer. It was suggested to transfer the structures, too, but I don’t remember if that was possible.

The issue arises with plot conflicts. The big questions are these:

1. What do we do with someone who owns an empty sleeper plot on Chaos conflicting with someone’s plot on Order that is active and built? Does the Chaos player get the boot?
2. What do we do if there are two active players with two well-placed and active plots? Who gets the boot then?

So that would need to be figured out…

The biggest issue with plot conflicts is really that all the "choice" plot/lair locations are largely taken already so all the big and desirable ones are pretty much 'off the menu' for anyone coming from Order. There's still plenty of open space around the map of course, many people could even keep their current property since it's not bought on Chaos yet.

Something else that MIGHT help with people losing their plots through a merge is if the devs created a new island location with an abundance of large "choice" plots that are either near ingoing/outgoing ports or near some desirable resource. And then that location would only be open for people coming from Order to purchase for a year or so before anyone else could try to buy one. That way, even if someone does lose a highly desirable location, they can easily grab another without having to worry about not having a chance at a nice spot.

That would take considerable world building effort of course, but it's one solution I could think of to make the loss of plots sting a bit less.

[Calyndrell]

1. Merging the servers will destroy the order guilds.... Thanks but I'll pass.

2. We lose our plots... don't hit me with "you get your gold back" or "you get full novians" I actually DON'T CARE about that. I LOSE THE LAIR I PAY FOR. My subs lair is tied to the characters history. I wouldn't care if my new lair had a permanent motherlode node of every tier of every resource on its door step. I like its Location.

3. What about people who have copied in the last couple months do they get reimbursed?

The only way it would be close to fair is if it was handled like in the old merge everyone who has a plot confliction loses their plot/lair and then it goes to auction.

ooh and easiest way to avoid the OP arguement about it killing the game as a whole.. simply put "low population warning" when logging onto order. It really is that simple.

You force a merge and you will lose subs, its not a threat its a promise. An absolute guarantee.

[Machaeon]

1. Merging the servers will destroy the order guilds.... Thanks but I'll pass.

What Order guilds are you referring to? Scions is essentially dead since the vast majority of the players went to Chaos already, Istara's Chosen largely copied or transferred already, Universal Soldiers lurks in the invisible shadows, there's not really any other big guilds left and certainly no new ones forming. As the GM of Istara's Chosen, it makes zero difference to us since we were happy to re-establish ourselves on Chaos.

2. We lose our plots... don't hit me with "you get your gold back" or "you get full novians" I actually DON'T CARE about that. I LOSE THE LAIR I PAY FOR. My subs lair is tied to the characters history. I wouldn't care if my new lair had a permanent motherlode node of every tier of every resource on its door step. I like its Location.

Yeah that's fine for you, there's a minority who would agree with this and it might be able to be addressed in the suggestion I made above if you end up getting a better spot. I can understand wanting to keep your lair up to a point... for me that point is when it's a choice of: perfect location with nobody to talk to and nothing to do OR community big enough to play the game as intended. Order is at that point now, and that's what's driving people away.

3. What about people who have copied in the last couple months do they get reimbursed?

I copied quite literally as soon as I could and I'm absolutely in favor of a merge. I don't care that I spent $30 to get 3 characters there for what other people would get for free. That money meant I was able to get established in the Chaos economy earlier and was able to grab a nicer plot than I ever could have gotten on Order after many of plots got a revamp.

And a merge is bigger than my own personal concerns, every single new player that goes to Order misses out on much of the group content and player assistance they should be getting in an MMO, all of them see a dying shard that struggles to hit 20 players on the best of days, and can you blame them if they don't want to stay? When you take away the groups of friends you get with a high population, you're left with at best a personal grind from 1-100 and a very low chance if any at all to see any epic content.

The only way it would be close to fair is if it was handled like in the old merge everyone who has a plot confliction loses their plot/lair and then it goes to auction.

I would agree with this if the shards were more evenly populated... but as it is, Order players are already a minority among the Istaria players and having the majority of players suffer for the what... 30 or so players ghost-owning plots to not get riled up.

ooh and easiest way to avoid the OP arguement about it killing the game as a whole.. simply put "low population warning" when logging onto order. It really is that simple.

I'd suggest this regardless of whether a merge goes through or not, but really it's not encouraging for a new player to get a warning like that when they first join up to a massively multiplayer game.

[Raptress]

As much as I hate to say it, there are a lot of good points in favor of a merge. Viscerally, I resist the idea because I fit in better with the crowd that made Order great back in the day than I do with the atmosphere on Chaos now—partly because most everyone on Order used to be IC all the time and that was amazing for world immersion, but logically I know it's unrealistic to expect to see Order getting back to that point when it's been in steady decline for years. Hardly anyone talks in the public channels now even when there are more than three people hanging out in them, and even then it's not IC.

Even so, I'm personally not particularly bothered by the low population. There could be good things along with a merge for me, but there could also be bad.

The biggest issue with the prospect of a merge for me is the plot/lair situation. I've already had a look at Chaos since I heard rumblings about server merging before now, and I currently stand to lose three of the four properties I'm holding, one of which is my favorite location in the game.

I would think that the most fair way to merge plots would be seniority. If an Order player owned a plot for six years and a Chaos player has only owned it for six months, the Order player would assume ownership after the merge and the Chaos player would receive full Novians and coin refund. Obviously someone is still losing their location, but that's going to happen with a sever merge no matter what.

I don't like the idea of an auction because Istaria's in-game economy is not functional. In-game currency means very little. What matters, in my opinion, is the real money that people pay to make sure they hold on to their plots, and many of us have been dutifully paying our subs for literal years to hold land that we have, well, years of attachment to.

[TheRock]

I would think that the most fair way to merge plots would be seniority. If an Order player owned a plot for six years and a Chaos player has only owned it for six months, the Order player would assume ownership after the merge and the Chaos player would receive full Novians and coin refund. Obviously someone is still losing their location, but that's going to happen with a sever merge no matter what.

I don't like the idea of an auction because Istaria's in-game economy is not functional. In-game currency means very little. What matters, in my opinion, is the real money that people pay to make sure they hold on to their plots, and many of us have been dutifully paying our subs for literal years to hold land that we have, well, years of attachment to.

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on the Seniority part. That statement puts me in mind of a company with Union employees where you have Seniority rights. This is a MMO game and each paying customer have the right to buy any plot and hold on to it as long as they so chose to pay. So what you are saying is a paying customer who has been in the game and on Order shard for 9 years has the right to take over a plot that belongs to a player on Chaos who has been there for 8.5 years...Seniority rules! That would cause many paying customers to leave for sure. Not a wise decision in my opinion.

If the Devs claim that it don't cost much if anything to keep up the Order shard then we should leave it alone. I have moved my main characters to Chaos because I wanted to be around a larger volume of players. I left some awesome friends and a great Guild(Scions) on the Order shard in my decision to transfer but if they want to stay then so be it.
If you don't like the low population of Order then move to Chaos. enough said!

cheers

[Raptress]

Sorry but I have to disagree with you on the Seniority part. That statement puts me in mind of a company with Union employees where you have Seniority rights. This is a MMO game and each paying customer have the right to buy any plot and hold on to it as long as they so chose to pay. So what you are saying is a paying customer who has been in the game and on Order shard for 9 years has the right to take over a plot that belongs to a player on Chaos who has been there for 8.5 years...Seniority rules! That would cause many paying customers to leave for sure. Not a wise decision in my opinion.

I'm curious what alternative you would see instead?

If the Chaos player got to keep their plot just because they're on Chaos, that makes all of us on Order feel like second-class players, which could also cause paying customers to leave. As I said in my original post, there is no win-win if a merge happens; someone loses their plot no matter what. It's a matter of trying to figure out the least painful way to do it.

[TheRock]

I'm curious what alternative you would see instead?

If the Chaos player got to keep their plot just because they're on Chaos, that makes all of us on Order feel like second-class players, which could also cause paying customers to leave. As I said in my original post, there is no win-win if a merge happens; someone loses their plot no matter what. It's a matter of trying to figure out the least painful way to do it.

The solution was simple...leave it as is! If players want to stay on Order shard then let them. They know just like we all know that there are not many players there to communicate with, but that's their choice.
I do not think that VI would consider one paying customer over another. If I am wrong please tell me so?
I left on the last merge then decided to return in 2009 but VI lost my sub and I am sure 100's or even a 1000 subs because of it. Many still haven't returned. That move really hurt the game financially. So if I was making the decisions would think on this hard before deciding on a merge.
If VI wants one server then come up with something that will not drive away existing customers.
Would I want to lose my plot to someone who paid for their sub a few days longer than me..NO. I paid to transfer but that don't matter because someone on Order got seniority so I lose my plot and I got to resort to 2nd place?
If the business next door is failing why should your business have to suffer because you are on the same street?
It is not good business to make preference over equal paying customers.
If it is on the table or being considered to combine the two servers then do it right for all players.

cheers

[Theeda Novelia]

While your complaints are heard, Cal, all I can say is that the majority of Order wants a merge. Even those who already copied to Chaos are pro-merge. This discussion has happened on Discord, it has happened IN Istaria, on BOTH servers. It has already been discussed. So even if there are some pains, it is a minority pain. You cannot be 3 people saying "no" while the rest of the server say "yes." It simply hurts the game, and it's selfish.

[Calyndrell]

While your complaints are heard, Cal, all I can say is that the majority of Order wants a merge. Even those who already copied to Chaos are pro-merge. This discussion has happened on Discord, it has happened IN Istaria, on BOTH servers. It has already been discussed. So even if there are some pains, it is a minority pain. You cannot be 3 people saying "no" while the rest of the server say "yes." It simply hurts the game, and it's selfish.

Hows it selfish? you wanting to take my lair off me is selfish.

Okay how about this since Order is such a low population it wont hurt chaos significantly to transfer plots to Order players and the chaos players lose them. Thats fair right?

ooh and PS I am in the discord chat... and some players know AREN'T

[Theeda Novelia]

Certain circumstances allow for plot movement. That will be thought out and planned. Your plot does not mean more than anyone one chaos', as anyone on chaos' does not mean more than yours. You cannot suddenly make someone else's plot worth less than yours.

And if you were in the last discord chat, you would have noticed that the only person opposing was Pastle. Pastle has left, no longer paying or playing for the game, thus, no longer important to discussion.

[Calyndrell]

No the only person IN the chat opposed was pastle. And have you not realized that maybe they quit because of how that conversation went? they were simply an early casualty.

Besides not everyone on Order is in discord. I can name atleast three people just in my guild who are not in the discord chat... and it's actually this train of "thought" that has always had me against using a forum like discord or skype as an "official" chat. "well they haven't argued in its defense so they don't matter" And no you didn't say that but you might as well have.

You say I am being selfish for not wanting a merge. I say YOUR being selfish by forcing your opinion on ME. the devs already stated it doesn't cost signifcantly more so..... leave my game ALONE!





Besides..... you don't want Aurakvoar on on chaos. he'll squat in your lairs and leave presents.


OOh And mach you know what I read from your post

If the population on order is so low. Why would it matter if the people that do come over can bid to get their plots and lairs?

"It won't affect me adversely if it goes ahead so yeah lets do it."

That there is the very essence of selfish.

[Sarsilas]

and it's actually this train of "thought" that has always had me against using a forum like discord or skype as an "official" chat.

While I won't comment on this thread as a whole as my opinions do not represent the whole of VI, I do want to insist that Discord is in no way an official outlet. It is not owned or managed by Virtrium. It is a player-made chat that many of the team are in for the sake of keeping in touch with players when we cannot get in-game.

We log in game to gather opinions from players in there and we encourage the creation of threads like these to discuss massive changes.

The only things we take from Discord are small suggestions and bug reports or as a quick way to get a few voices on something small.

[Machaeon]

The discord isn't an "official" chat, it's just one way of many where people can talk directly and casually with some of the devs and that's why we're bringing the conversation to as many places as possible, we do know that there are people out there who aren't in the discord. Since you know 3 people at least who would be opposed, and I know 3 who'd be opposed (which may or may not overlap)... I'll grant you that there's around 10 people who would be opposed, being generous.

I can think of 20+ people in my guild alone who actively want to merge and certainly more than that who aren't in my guild that I've spoken to who are in favor of a merge... and I'm sure there's more that I haven't spoken to that are in favor of a merge. The point is that it's still a minority of people who want Order to stay the way it is just to keep their property.

As Schwarz already addressed in the initial post, yes it doesn't cost more to keep Order up, but it does have other costs in the lost revenue from new players not staying and returning players also not staying.

[Schwarz]

You say I am being selfish for not wanting a merge. I say YOUR being selfish by forcing your opinion on ME. the devs already stated it doesn't cost signifcantly more so..... leave my game ALONE!

This is a thread that encourages giving opinions, no one is forcing anything on you, people will be voicing their opinion just as you have. I implore everyone to keep it civil as to not have this thread locked, thank you.

[Calyndrell]

@Sarsilas. Yeah I know I wasn't meaning to imply that I thought it was official. I know its not.

@Macheon. I'll agree to disagree with you. You left order and all your friends have already started the move. *slow clap* good for you I am so proud. I'd buy you a round but I can't be bothered. Believe it or not I am not actually dead set against the merge I just want it to be fair. and not favouring one shard simply because of a "theres more of us" mentality.

@Theedas. Yes MY GAME. I pay to play an MMO but how I play it should be my choice and not yours.

@Tilithia. Yes precisely thank you.

@Raptress. Actually a merge based on seniority I could kinda be infavor of. Because it favours neither server.

[Machaeon]

^^^^
This is exactly why I'm in favor of this, it's nothing to do with me personally or anything I might gain or lose from it. I want the game to keep going on and improving, and with Order the way it is, it's holding the game back as long as it has to be taken into consideration for new content. New and challenging things have been shelved before just because Order couldn't handle it

I am not actually dead set against the merge I just want it to be fair. and not favouring one shard simply because of a "theres more of us" mentality.

I don't want one shard favored over another either, believe it or not. I want things to be as fair as possible for as many people as possible. A merge is a messy thing, and it won't satisfy everyone.

The thing that makes the most sense from a business perspective is to keep the largest number of people happy. That's the only reason I brought up the majority/minority point really, and there's no single way to do that with the plots. An auction is off the table simply because it would be undesirable for everyone. I did suggest one thing that might help with the plot issue, whether you saw that or not, and I'm not gullible enough to think that it'd be the magic bullet fix, it would just take some of the sting out of the plot issue as I first said.

Yes MY GAME. I pay to play an MMO but how I play it should be my choice and not yours.

It's just as much Theeda's game as it is yours so yes it is your choice, but it is also my choice and Theeda's choice, nobody's opinion weighs more than another here.

[Theeda Novelia]

Later, I began asking new players how they've felt about the game when they joined Order. I always got the response, or something similar to it: "It doesn't feel like anyone is playing." or "Where is everyone?" I wanted those players to stick around, but many simply left. We lost those players. We lost individuals that could have joined our pleasant community due to the population. They didn't consider Chaos, because all of their work was on Order. They simply dropped the game. $9.95-$14.95 USD potentially lost, because of the disintegrating population.

This is very well said, and shows what this post was all about. It was never meant to be an attack or anything of the like. I think your post was very well thought out, Stars.

[Serieth]

I agree that Starstilanx post was nice. It details the problem new and returning players are facing.

To give some personal insight about my experience in the last two months. My group of friends have either quit or moved on, playing on Chaos. Some quit because they did not want to spam alternative chats to complete their AROP; they did not want to wait days for the right crafter to log on to produce the right item. (I think we all appreciate the chaos players who are willing to log over to lend a hand, but it's not the same as a self-sustainable server.) Purchasing a character transfer token, or even a copy token, is not feasible for everyone. It's expensive and it adds up, leaving the potential chance that precious characters with attached memories are left behind. I still understand and emphasize with the lair situation. I wish there was a better option, but other than my suggestion down below, I can't honestly think of a better one. We will either lose money from people losing their plots, or we will lose money from people losing hope in Order's population.

Much like Stars, I was in the same boat about order merging. I have been playing on Order for 12 years now; I grew up in the game, starting in middle school and all the way through college. When things got rough, the order community always had a way of easing the real life frustration. Even with those memories, I think a change should still happen. It might not be fun, or pleasant. It might be frustrating feeling out a new place, but I think it would get better for people. New adventures always yield new memories, and those memories can be good ones. Even with all my memories, my fun, the time spent on the server, I am willing to give something else a try.

And please, if you see this, don't tl;dr this post. Read it through. I certainly hope everyone will.