A clueless biped's thought's on the hoard.

[evilkarl]

I think like many ideas in this game the hoard is a good idea, but it's current implementation is flawed.

I see the hoarde an exteral source of power above and beyond merely levels.

The problem I see with the hoard are as follows[*]The cap post 50 is insane..yet for some truly daft reason the reward remains minimal[*]There is in this new land of ours very low chance of getting a hoard drop more so for dragons because hoard loot rightfully does not seem to drop of native istaria inhabitants but instead of the WA[*]Hoard values are way to low to make the millions required[*]Dragons can not make items themselves that are worth substatial hoard. Most biped made items are worth more hoard than what a dragon can make[*]Hoarding scales a common past time requires constant trips back to dralk.[*]The benefits for actually manageing to fill the hoard are pathetic considering the effort required (480 armour in itself is not pathetic however considering the effort...)[*]Hoards are not full of shiny things they are full of spells or scales...Dragons can't make their own shiny things so unless they work with a biped (against the RP for one faction) they have a dull hoard[/list]How can this be fixed? I see a few options

1. Adjust the formula so that the cap is not so high
2. OR Adjust the benefits to be great for post level 50 hoarding
3. Allow dragons to hoard precious metals and gems or use their smelting/gemworking/inginuity skills to make items that are worth hoarding (add forms for dragons to make things using these materials). Give the items hv above what a biped can craft
4. Alter the benefits for capping out the hoard.
5. See point 3
6. See point 1 or 2
7. See point 3
8. Increase the drop rate in hoardable items, even if it is only if there is a dragon present in the group.
9. Add in more hoard able items
10. Make it viable for a adventure only dragon to maintain its hoard without having to spend the next 5 years trying to
11. see point 8,9 and 10
12. see point 3, 8 9 and 10

I think that does it for me. Let the inevitable thread derailment and flaming begin :)

[thefatone]

The only I'd say on this is increase the drop rate of hoardable items. Itemsthat areONLY for the dragon hoard.

I mean, seriously, in any lore that involves dragon and their hoard of valuables, how much of it has the dragon made itself?

None.

When you were a kid and you playing D&D on a Saturday night (I know some of you did that, I did) did your Dwarf, or Elf, or Knight or whatever sneek into the dragons cave and steel it's valuable ... sandstone scale? Nope. You took it's gold cups and shining gems. Or, magical sword of Dwarf Killing (+4).

It simply would not be valuable to a dragon if it made it on it's own. A dragon wants to hoard gold and silver, magic swords and armor. Shinny stuff that looks cool.

Now, I'm not adragon scholar, but dont dragons plunder hoard, or take the valuables from knights that failed in slaying said dragon?

Maybe there should be quests that give out hoard for dragons. That might help, and be more 'lore' fitting.

I dont know, just my two cents.

[evilkarl]

I have to agree. However if dragons are making stuff of precious metals and gems it makes sense they would hoard it.

But items of stone? not unless they are statues or sculptures of marble or something.

[PJ]

There are many unfun aspects and flaws in the system. In my opinion, and these are just my a priori notions on hoarding, Hoard shouldn't be manufacturable. Considering the pretty minimal effects of hoard currently, it should be perfectly feasible for a dragon hunting to level (and not getting powerleveled) to build his/her/its hoard. And there should be a minimum level to hoard items.

[evilkarl]

it should be perfectly feasible for a dragon hunting to level (and not getting powerleveled) to build his/her/its hoard. And there should be a minimum level to hoard items.

/concur

"It" is the correct label

[Marco]

Your not clueless EK, not at all.

[Fireclaw]

You pretty much nailed it right on with the problems with hoard:
1. Reward for hoard post level 50 is minimal given the effort involved. The effort becomes astronomical while the reward remains the same.
2. crafting is the only practical way to make very large quantities of hoard.
3. hoard loot drops are extremely rare -- far more rare than they were pre-merge (found just 1 hoardable item since merge, even though gained 20 million adventurer exp) Also it used to be that named boss mobs had a chance to drop multiple hoard items. Now those boss mobs drop nothing more than regular mobs of that type while being far tougher than prior boss mobs. Boss mobs should once again have a high chance to drop multiple hoard loot (and for bipeds, blighted items if named WA mobs).
4. The hoard values on trophy tokens are so low as to be effectively useless for increasing hoard.

Hoarding should be something that an adventurer dragon can maintain and grow. When people think of what a dragon's hoard should be, it should be composed of treasure, coins, gems, jewels, magic weapons, etc. It should NOT be something that contains thousands upon thousands of copies of mass-produced items manufactured for the sole purpose of being hoarded.

Solutions:
1. Massively increase the drop rate on hoardable items (urns, coffers, crowns, scepters). They don't have to drop from every kill, but perhaps one every 20 kills would be about right.
2. Level requirement for using hoardables - I agree that all hoardable items should have level requirements. For instance, you shouldn't be able to hoard a dimensional scepter of radiance, which is worth 50k hoard, unless you are level 100.
3. One solution is to increase the reward for higher levels of hoard. This may well be a good idea, but I am against it as the only solution, because it still leaves the only practical way of growing hoard as being mass-crafting.
4. To discourage mass-crafting, one option would be to have diminishing returns on the same item. For instance, once a dragon hoards 500 mithril chest scales, then the hv of any future mithril chest scales halves. At 1500 it halves again, and so on. However, before implementing such a system AE should make VERY sure to work in an alternate way of increasing hoard (such as by adventuring), and/or should significantly lower the hoard requirement.
5. The levels of hoard required are too high. Reduce the levels significantly. Maybe a level 100 hoard should be 10 million instead of 25. If the current system holds when the level cap is implemented the impossibility of generating enough hoard will become even worse since the new hoard req for 120 would be over 62 million. Hoard should take work to build - but it should be possible and practical for a level 100 dragon to attain a level 100 hoard in a reasonable amount of time.

Inherent problem:
An adventurer dragon hunting solo does minimal monk-like damage except when using hoard abilities. However, if the whole point of the hunt is to grow hoard, that purpose maybe defeated by the use of such hoard abilities, unless the dragon hunts far below its level. One fix for this would be to have more hoardable items drop to compensate for hoard presumably used in the hunt. However, the problem with this is that if the dragon groups with bipeds, it won't be necessary to use hoard abilities at all resulting in possibly too great a gain in hoard.

There might also be a problem that a dragon might choose to mass-slaughter lower-level mobs to get hoard drops. For this reason, hoard drops should probably have both a max and a minimum level to hoard. For instance, low value hoard items could only be hoarded by dragons levels 1-20. Mid value hoard items could not be hoarded if the dragon is between levels 40 and 70, etc. This is also logical, because it should be beneath a high-level uber dragon to hoard low level junk. While to a new hatchling, such junk could well be considered valuable.

Having spent months crafting hoard, I can safely say that it is the most boring, unrewarding thing in the game. Life as a younger dragon, with quests to fulfill and ROP to look forward to was fun. Spending hours each day crafting hoard for no noticeable improvement in my character other than watching the hoard number go up is well... not fun.

BTW: this thread should probably be moved to Suggestions.

[PJ]

Oh Wraiths in my experience, at least Wraith Lords, have a good drop rate on hoardables. On even dropped 2 items. But well taking a wraith as a dragon solo....heh. Extremely difficult at best. I'm a super overpowered biped and I can only do it if his group has the right composition (i.e. all melee).

[evilkarl]

You pretty much nailed it right on with the problems with hoard:
1. Reward for hoard post level 50 is minimal given the effort involved. The effort becomes astronomical while the reward remains the same.
2. crafting is the only practical way to make very large quantities of hoard.

This is the worst part in my opinion

3. hoard loot drops are extremely rare -- far more rare than they were pre-merge (found just 1 hoardable item since merge, even though gained 20 million adventurer exp) Also it used to be that named boss mobs had a chance to drop multiple hoard items. Now those boss mobs drop nothing more than regular mobs of that type while being far tougher than prior boss mobs. Boss mobs should once again have a high chance to drop multiple hoard loot (and for bipeds, blighted items if named WA mobs).

Named mobs at present are an annoyance. they should have drops or a better chance of drops. However named mobs are hardly the same as dark stalkers who commonly dropped 2 hoard items. The closest thing to a dark stalker these days is a kwellen. (leader type with a pack) or an aggregor

4. The hoard values on trophy tokens are so low as to be effectively useless for increasing hoard.

What is the HV of a t5 trophy?

Solutions:
1. Massively increase the drop rate on hoardable items (urns, coffers, crowns, scepters). They don't have to drop from every kill, but perhaps one every 20 kills would be about right.

2. Level requirement for using hoardables - I agree that all hoardable items should have level requirements. For instance, you shouldn't be able to hoard a dimensional scepter of radiance, which is worth 50k hoard, unless you are level 100.

Works for me

3. One solution is to increase the reward for higher levels of hoard. This may well be a good idea, but I am against it as the only solution, because it still leaves the only practical way of growin hoard as being mass-crafting.

Increase the reward would be wise.

Inherent problem:
An adventurer dragon hunting solo does minimal monk-like damage except when using hoard abilities. However, if the whole point of the hunt is to grow hoard, that purpose maybe defeated by the use of such hoard abilities, unless the dragon hunts far below its level. One fix for this would be to have more hoardable items drop to compensate for hoard presumably used in the hunt. However, the problem with this is that if the dragon groups with bipeds, it won't be necessary to use hoard abilities at all resulting in possibly too great a gain in hoard.

I hunted with a dragon over the weekend he chewed 100k of hoard and goldraged almost twice every fight from what I could see..if we got t5 hoard items from every 20 mobs....well he would be in the clear.

[gopher65]

I agree with all of this.

But I think that it does make sense for a dragon to be able to craft their own hoard. However at the current time that is not fesible. Especially since this is labelled as a game for casual players. Would any casual player with more than 3 million hoard please raise their hand. Anyone? No? Doesn't that say something to you:)?

hehe. Hoard as it stands is so boring that I'm amazed anyone bothers with it. There is no point whatsoever to it. I hope this changes.

[PJ]

Most arguments against crafted hoard, use a priori notions about a dragons hoard. Those really, from the point of view of horizons, have no bearing. But here's a nice game mechanics argument.

Hoard as it stands is a boost for adventuring. Gains to armor and breath weapon, and utilized in high damaging moves, etc. Since hoard is for adventurering dragons, building a hoard should be feasible for adventuring dragons.

[Pharcellus]

What is the HV of a t5 trophy?

500-600hv. However, since they are multi-purpose items, hunting in a group means that they are often "shared" items. Meaning that they are divided up amongst all that can use them. Also, undead do not drop trophies, though they (very rarely) drop a single or (extremely rarely) two hoardable items.

I hunted with a dragon over the weekend he chewed 100k of hoard and goldraged almost twice every fight from what I could see..if we got t5 hoard items from every 20 mobs....well he would be in the clear.

Actually, Zodias, I used GR slightly less than once per mob, on average. I used it more freely, and used it when the group was being clustered, but I stuck with the normal abilites + Silver Strike on many of the mobs, often casting AoE spells (I am Helian, remember? :P) in lieu of melee. I still chewed through over 100k hoard, and the hoardables I got (someone gave me a dimensional sceptre, and I hoarded a few trophies) did not make up for it, let alone advance. Assuming you mean a higher ratio of real hoardable drops, not trophies, then I may have come out ahead. Really depends on how nice the other group members were to let me keep them. Hoardables are sharable loot and some bipeds will take them for their own Dragon toons, or their guildmates/friends Dragon toons. Thankfully, it has been a while since a biped groupmate looted a hoardable and kept it with the intention of selling it. Still, I don't feel inclined to blow lots of hoard for the group if they are not going to help me recoup my losses. With even decent prices for hoard (1cp per 1hv), I can blow almost a silver piece per mob in hoard (not even considering using Shield of Gold). As a result, if bipeds want Dragons to even marginally consider being fully supportive in combat, they should turn over all hoardables to the Dragons in the party.

[evilkarl]

I chose to point out GR because it is the more expensive and effective attack.

However with the amount of things we slayed on that day I imagine there would have been ample real hoard drops to replace what was burned if it dropped at 20:1. But you are right thats only if you were infact to loot them or given them.

[Fireclaw]

Posted this in another thread, but its relevant here so here it is. This is a proposal for completely tossing the existing hoard system and replacing with something that hopefully would be better.


Proposal for a completely different concept of how to handle hoard (completly tossing the current system):

Under this proposal, the hoard would be like the inventory screen in grid view, except that it could not be expanded indefinitely. Items placed into the hoard can be moved around for max efficiency, and could even be removed from the hoard and replaced with better items. the hoard grid would have a maximum number of squares in which hoardable items could be found, severely limiting how many items can be put into it. The total hoard value of all items presently in the hoard would determine the total value of the hoard. A few additional features:

1. Every 10 levels, the hoard grid gets larger. But not hugely so. A level 100 dragon might have a grid 6x as large as a level 1 dragon.
2. Every item put into the hoard adds its hoard value to the hoard. Items with rare techs add more hoard value. High Tier items would have MUCH great hoard value than low tier items (a tier 1 hoard item might have 10 hv, while a T5 item might have 3000 hv). The greatest hoard gain would be from special super high hoard value items that could be obtained only through quests.
3. Only 1 of each item can be placed into the hoard at any given time.
4. All items added to the hoard have minimum and maximum level requirements to hoard. Tier 1 items can only be hoarded if between levels 1-20, tier 2: 21-40 and so on. Lower tier items would automatically be ejected from the hoard and returned to the player's vault when the player hits 10 levels over the max level requirement to hoard those items. (ie at level 30 all level 1-20 hoardables become unhoarded). EDIT: alternatively, instead of automatically ejecting hoard items that are too low in level for the dragon, such items could remain in the hoard but would begin to lose hoard value as the dragon got too high level. After the first 10 level grace period, Perhaps have the value of such items reduced by 20% for every additional 10 levels for which the dragon is too high (reducing hoarded items to a minimum of zero).
5. Each use of a hoard ability reduces the hoard value of ALL items presently in the hoard. This amount should be very low, but should be sufficient to force the dragon to constantly seek out and replenish its hoard with fresh items.
6. All hoard items can be removed from the hoard at will and fresh ones put into their place. Items that have had their hoard value diminished through hoard abilities retain their reduced hoard value when removed from hoard. However, in all other respect removed hoard items can be used like any other comparable item (ie sold, equipped, scribed, deconstructed, etc.).
8. The hoard would be visible in grid view only. No list view and no auto-optimize button. Hoarded containers cannot hold any contents and cannot be hoarded until all contents are removed.
9. EDIT: Hoarded items whose hoard values drop to zero are automatically ejected from the hoard.

Advantages of the system proposed above:
1. Takes much of the grind out of hoarding. No more hoarding dozens of the same item. Instead dragons would seek to obtain quality crafted items to place into their hoard, or would go on quests to obtain special items with uber hoard value.
2. Allows both crafter and adventurer dragons to build good hoards.
3. The hoard isn't just a faceless number. Instead its an actual pile of treasure for the dragon to play around with. Some of the items in it could even be used if the dragon wishes.
4. Instead of mindlessly trying to grow the hoard number, the limited hoard space envisioned with this system would force dragons to use some strategy in optimizing their hoards and deciding which items to hoard. For instance, should the dragon hoard 1 large item taking 6 grid squares or should it seek to obtain smaller items taking less hoard space.

[PJ]

I'd put it this way, there are lots of waysa betterhoard system could be done. They are all more advantageous in varies ways. The only advantage of the current system is that it was probably easy to code. Hopefully when more time presents itself we can see a more useful, more worthwhile, system.

[Vahrokh]

As a result, if bipeds want Dragons to even marginally consider being fully supportive in combat, they should turn over all hoardables to the Dragons in the party.

Once it was like that. When reans and marrows existed I was pretty useful for a group because I could stand in front goldraging and still area blast evilly.

Now instead the mobs would require more frequent gold raging since they punch so much more damage but with the current drop rate I can just spare a very rare gold rage here and there, usually to save other people life. After a while being in front and (with the current weak armor) getting much damage not giving it back grows old on me and I move as a good Lunus in the back and cast.

Crafting lost hoard back is immensely boring (I usually fall asleep several times doing it) and secluding from the community. A feeling augmented knowing that pressing a button will burn it like fuel.

And even more augmented knowing that I'd be supposed to ravage rich mobs off their shiny riches, not mass produce the lowest quality (i.e. not even teched) of min - maxed items.

My natural and satisfying fighting style is like a berserker that jumps in the middle of enemies and lays waste upon them (with healer and crowd controller support of course). A style I cannot keep anymore.

Another very bad thing I experienced is when two dragons join a group. Or, even worse, two dragons and some guildies of them join a group.
It's extremely easy that litigations will arise when the single hoard drop in a day will decide to come. What dragon would take it? What if the guildies (happened to me) of the other dragon consistently ninja loot hoardables and trophies to give them to the other dragon in the group? How often arguments like "yes but you have already 13.5M hoard and I have just 350k and I used gold rage more often than you" arise?

When hunting with other level 80-100 guildies how to avoid the unpleasant (happened too) "you loot everything for yourself just because you are the oldest in guild". Or "all are passing you all the hoardables because you are old time friend of them and I am not". Etc. Etc. A pain.

[evilkarl]

Posted this in another thread, but its relevant here so here it is. This is a proposal for completely tossing the existing hoard system and replacing with something that hopefully would be better.


Proposal for a completely different concept of how to handle hoard (completly tossing the current system):

I like this idea, I like the fact a dragon could see their hoard, they could take screen shots of their hoard and it would be something to be proud of. It could be generated by adventuring and crafting it would be nice but a great deal of wrop to strip the existing stuff out and replace with new one.

[Jaraiden]

I like Fireclaw's idea, but would dread anyone seeing all them da.mn Imperial iron parcels in my hoard. Unfortunately, it would require a lot of coding I'm sure and most dragons need that extra 200+80 armor(hoard levels 50 to 100) now since natural armor is so soft.

From AE:

Dragons shun the use of conventional items and tools, relying more on their innate powers of magic to craft devices that suit their needs and to alter the environment around them. Dragons are also very possessive creatures; what a Dragon owns is of paramount importance. Dragons keep hoards of gold, resources, and items in secret caches known only to them; Dragons seem to feed (in the figurative sense) off of the size of their hoards, giving them added power.

So Istarian lore would fit nicely with that Fireclaw, where dragons would seek out better and better items, or craft them.

As posted elsewhere, Dragons should be able to craft items of wealth - bronze/silver/gold/platinum/mithril with the proper tiered gem. And no, a dragon scalepack is not an item of wealth, just a weak excuse by AE for gemworking. Likely gemworking was a factor in hoardcrafting and they have not finished it (another post talked of crafting Flawless gems, akin to enchanters making Purified orbs).

There has to be more ways for adragon to make their own hoard. The current system requires too much reliance by a typically solitary dragon on the other races (which is hard to do on the Lunus path). Adventuring, the drops are pathetic, yet AE is rather slow in restoring the drop rates. Also, combine farming much lower tiered monsters (mostly pre-merge) for hoard drops is not too much fun either.

[Varangaard]

Back in the day the hoard loot was a good idea when it still was dropping frequently enough. Now though, they are too rare to have any meaningful impact whatsoever. A dragon, an adventring one especially, should have enough hoard income to cover for moderate usage of their hoard-burning abilities.

To create a steady 'hoard income' the system should be changed a bit.
1. The old hoardable drops could be dropped altogether as they don't have any impact. Plus, see (3) below
2. Each kill the dragon participates in gives them hoard automatically. Simply put, it is a percentage of experience gained.
3. This removes the now-common problem of "so who gets that ******** rare hoard drop?" since award is automatic.
4. This brings the classic element of dragons looting their slain opponents to add to their treasure pile.
5. Trophies, as they have other uses, must remain. Their HV is incidental at best, so it needs no adjustments. (the best is about 600HV; these can be killed only by dragons close to lvl 100; they need 26 million hoard to achieve a hoard of their level; that is about 43000 kills of tier V mobs)

Of course, this still leaves unaddressed the nonexistent reward of actually building up your hoard. That's 400 armor at lvl 100 equivalent hoard, +4 per level while it gets exponentially harder to build. We can forget about the breath weapon hit boost (+1 per hoard level) doe to breaths' ridiculously long recycles and the fact that they do little more damage than your regular claw swipe. The AoE effect makes some difference, but how many mages would think an AoE spell useful that does 150% damage of their regular bolt spell but with 10 minute recycle? I thought so.

Bottom line: the hoard system needs a complete overhaul, both on how we make it, and what we get from it. The only reason I'm going to build my hoard is to maintain 200 armor bonus (1 million hoard) and because I suspect that ancient RoP has a hoard requirement like adult RoP had.

[Shaw Moking]

" ...or take the valuables from knights that failed in slaying said dragon?"

Once Dragons get their lairs, they should give out Dragon Slaying Quests...if you fail, the Dragon get's a choice of 3 items from your inventory / vault