Ancient Rite of Passage

[Varangaard]

There seems to be a misconception that just because someone can receive a quest means that they will be able to complete a quest. I've listed the requirements to receive the quest. I believe any Dragon attempting the Ancient Rite of Passage with ONLY the minimum requirements to receive the quest will die. But they will be able to see what they need to be able to overcome the challenge. (Parts of the quest are not accessible by bipeds, so biped assistance will not be available.)

I'm interested in discussion, that is why I posted here. I've heard that 100 days is too few for some of you. Some have even proposed specific numbers. Please share your reasoning behind any proposed time lengths so we can take that into account as we continue to develop the ARoP.

David

Thank you for the reply. I'm happy to hear that those are only the initial requirements. In fact, I look forwards to the Ancient RoP being hard, really hard, fraught with risks that test the dragons' skill, might and knowledge. I'm also happy to hear that some parts are dragon-only. [:)]

The time requirement should be at least 200 days, though preferably a year, because an ancient dragon is an elder dragon. They know the lay of the land, the foes, the tricks and tactics, the lore, and are a repository of knowledge. They are veterans of many battles, and might have seen the fall of the machines that enslaved the satyr, the summoning of the dryads, the creation of the Novo to mend the shattered reality.

When people see an ancient dragon, they would know the dragon has been in the game for a good long time. As we cannot multiclass and work towards acquiring multiple level 100s, adult and ancient are our only pathways to 'prestige'. When people see a biped with AR over 140 they know he/she has a lot of playtime put into that. When people see an ancient dragon, they should also be able to know a lot of playtime has gone into that.

While in three months one can grow up into a respected and powerful dragon, I do not believe such a young one yet has the wisdom to become one of the Elders of Dralk or Chiconis. A year is a good number as it speaks of great dedication to the cause of Lunus or Helian.

[Vesuvius]

I wanted to add as well that 100days is especially irritating being that many of us waited that long just to be able to do the Adult RoP and there was no timer for that at all, despite everyone being under the impression that there would be.

[Dracko]

Ancient dragon's should be earnt and not given, its the final evolution of a dragon, and having it at 100 days since creation is a joke, as alot of people have dragons just sat there with a creation date of 100+ easily (I have 5 alone that just didn't feel right). 100 days is easy and the reward is "hopefully" to high.

If however you set it to 365 or say something like 200 days since creation, this would be better. Better yet would be to insert 3 seperate timers that you must fullfill.. these been..

200days since creations (365 is fine but says 200 for now)
60 days playingtime (ingame time)
100 days since adult Rite of Passage

All of these three together would truely make ancient deserved and something special, instead of just been a guild pet, p/lvled and parked and steam rolled through adult and straight to ARoP.

I know you need to think about casual players, but ancients are well exactly what the word says.. Ancient.. and not made as an after thought.

[Ebonfyre]

The Reqs should be 100 in adv or craft minimum.

365 days since creation minimum.

50 days IN-GAME time, simply because i think this would make it harder for people who just let their dragon sit should have to actually play their dragon and not just have it powerlvled to reach ancient. I myself am only in game time of 40 days or so and i am a 100/75 dragon. If people truly play their dragons all the time this mark is very obtainable and prevents the "sleeper dragons" from becoming ancients too soon.

As for hoard requirement im glad there is none because it is a waste of time.

[Fireclaw]

The requirements posted by Dave Bowman are much too low. Under those requirements someone could powerlevel a dragon through ROP in a couple weeks. Then, after waiting 100 days, they could powerlevel up to level 90 within another 1-2 weeks simply by group hunting on Elnath (massively fast leveling area). Under the posted requirements, Dragons with as few as 10 game days played could probably become ancient.

100 days isn't really much of a limitation either. Almost everyone who has been in the game 100 days has a dragon alt that is at least that old whether its been played or not. With the requirements posted by AE, we would very soon see a huge flood of ancient dragons. Ancients would not be rare and awe inspiring as they should be. Instead, they would be a dime-a-dozen.

DB also stated that minimum level adults "probably wouldn't survive" ARoP, "because there are areas that are inaccessible to bipeds." This is simply not very realistic. First, Dragons doing ARoP will most likely be in groups with other dragons, so any weaker dragon would be protected by the rest. Second, there really is very little difference in survivability between a level 90 dragon and a level 100 dragon, especially given that AE has failed to add in adventurer ability quests up to level 100. The bottom line is that almost anything a level 100 dragon could survive, a level 90 dragon could also survive. Also, if those 10 levels really make that much of a difference, it wouldn't be that much of a problem for the powerleveled dragon to spend another few days at Elnath packing on more adventurer levels.

ARoP has been something that has been looked forward to by hardcore dragon players sicne the game came out. Those players were tremendously disappointed with the low requirements for ROP. ARoP should be something really special, to reward the hardcore dragon players and to show the kind of power that a dragon can ultimately achieve. Thus the requirements should be correspondingly high:

I recommend the following:
200 days since character creation - One year since creation might seem more reasonable but that might be a bit too discouraging to newer hardcore players. I don't see why a dragon who has 60 days game time but only 250 days since creation should be less qualified for ARoP than a dragon with 365 days since creation, but only 10 days played.

45-50 days in game - If there is going to be a timer, there should also be an in-game timer. This is especially important for weeding out those who just want to powerlevel to ancient, from those who are actually hardcore dragon players. Of course, this won't prevent players from logging in their dragon before going to bed AFK, but combined with other requirement, should help to weed out the true dragon players from the quick powerlevelers.

100 days since completing adult ROP (realtime-not game time) - additional protection to prevent dragon alts who were created long ago but never played from being suddenly powereleved to ancient once ARoP goes live.

Level 100 / 100 - There are quite a few dragons at level 100 / 100 on Chaos shard (probably a couple dozen). With the level cap soon to rise to 120, there is no need to set the level requirement below 90. The most dedicated dragon players should not have too much difficulty reaching this requirement. Alternatively, since many dragons may hate crafting or adventuring perhaps set the requirements as being one class at 100 and the other class at 80. the posted requirement of one class at 90 seems much too low, because players could potentially not bother leveling up the other class at all. HOWEVER: The level requirement might be ok if the ARoP quests require very high crafting ability. That would prevent players with powerleveled adventurer and no crafter levels from becoming ancient. Its a lot harder to powerlevel dragoncrafter levels.

Hoard requirement: 5-10 million - Yes, hoard is a mindless waste of time, but building up hoard is a mark of dedication to the dragon class. Many dragons have been spending months building up hoard in the expectation that some hoard would be required for ARoP. However, at the same time I can see that perhaps AE's choice not to have a hoard requirement is in recognition of the fact that the present hoard system is less than satisfactory and AE is trying to decrease reliance on hoard.

[Laneth]

First of all, I am a biped. I am pleased to see things coming along on the ARoP. I hope that AE listens to some of the great idea's posted here by the people that actually play. I agree that there should be a good bit of this quest that should be biped free. I worked very hard helping my wife and many other dragon's with RoP. The main thing i want to ask is that BiPeds be allowed to be there for Transformation to Anceint. My wife, Eleena the Fiesty (Chaos), is very proud of her dragon. And i am proud of all the hard work she has put into her character. She is the main reason I am so nice to a lot of dragons. With her in the chair behind me playing, I have got to see all the hardships that she has went thru to get where she is.I would hate to think that someone could take a few weeks of powerleveling and go thru ARoP and make all that she has done seem fruitless. I support the 200+ creation timer and the 45 to 50 ingame timer. Although she hates her hoard as much as the next person, andfromourdiscussions, we think it should be factored in. Hoard is a dragon's pride in role play, how can ya have an anceint that doesn't have a multitude of pride. Even though it is boring and tedius, without any real gain, it is part of a dragon's life.

[evilkarl]

From adult to ancient in less than a year is bad enough. 100 days is not even the once mentioned requirement for adult which was later dropped.

Most dragons would probably like to be rewarded for their time commitment and sticking with the game. Making the age of char requirement only 100 days is a huge slap in the face. It should be 300+ and there are few dragons that will disagree with that.

An ancient is meant to be old, 100 days is not old.

[Blue Hasia]

I would like to point out thathaving the ingame time requirment is a bad idea. I know many poeple that never log of the game, almost. you can say they leave the game running 24/7. It is very easy thento *cheat* on the in game time by just leaving the game running when you AFK for hours...mabye days on end.

[Fireclaw]

I would like to point out thathaving the ingame time requirment is a bad idea. I know many poeple that never log of the game, almost. you can say they leave the game running 24/7. It is very easy thento *cheat* on the in game time by just leaving the game running when you AFK for hours...mabye days on end.

True... but if those players are doing that, then they aren't using that time to play their biped mains - in either case it at least shows some dedication to dragonhood. An in-game timer may not be perfect, but it actually makes more sense than having a simple timer since creation. I have two dragon alts who both were created over 1 year ago even though combined they have less than 6 hours played. Under the posted requirements for ARoP I could powerlevel them through ROP and be immediately ready for ancient, even though I never previously showed any dedication to those alts. An in-game timer would at least prevent that sort of behavior.

[Vahrokh]

1 year is probably too much and 200 days could be less of an elitist like requirement and still challenging enough.

The ancient dragon is not an elite dragon that is in his throne because he "grew old".
My grandma isold but still nothing epic nor ancient.

And ancient dragon is a dragon of fame who worked hard becoming a beast of the tales.

For this I'd keep the adv 90 requirement, just to say that you have not to be 100 and be capped with that already. Anyway any stoned dude playing this game can be 100 in days.
Being 90 or 100 in adventure is really nothing to be proud of nowadays nor a sign of commitment (I see dragons in autofollow at mithril golems all day... is it commitment?)

Being 70 in craft is. Demonstrated commitment is the thing the smart powerlevellers cannot fake easily. 70 craft levels are not. Just see how many go Lunus because they want to "just fly" with their dragon alt.

Having 5M hoard too would be a sign of commitment.
Me and LOTS of dragons dug to no end to because it was just sensible that an ancient dragon would require a fabolous hoard.

No hoard requirement and no craft (or anything that lets powerlevellers jump in effortlessy) is just a big slap in our face. A face that after a year is already well purple.

By the way, is the puny level 90 requirement a sign of the overall worth we are getting as ancient?
You know, there are people that did not work for a year to have a nice bigger butt.

[imported_Denrath]

I have to agree with Ragon here on the in-game time, and all of yall on the creation time. Creation time should be a year since ancients are supposed to be...well...ancient. The way the days go in Istaria, I can see how 100 days could be considered a long time, and it is. But it wouldnt be near what Ancient would be. At the very least, I would say 300 days since creation, though I much prefer the year.
For in-game time, I really dont agree with there being one, or at the very least making it low enough that someone with a year of game play could attain it even if they cant be logged in all the time. With the way my work scheduling goes, I just dont have the ability to log in every day. Plus, when I am home I typically have to work on other things than playing on the computer, or while playing on it. Denrath is my only character and I do everything I can to build him up and play when I can. He is 330 days old, but only 24 hours in game. And I refuse to cheat and just let him sit. It isnt in his character to sit there and mindlessly drool on himself, he prefers to get out and kill.
As for the craft requirement I see tossed around, I dont think a craft requirement needs to be set from the start since it is likely we will have to craft things that will require a ton of skill (800 scalecraft or something) to make. Again, those of us who despise crafting are going to be forced into it in the end, so maybe we ought to just leave those who hate crafting with their delusions of not having to for now. *Grins*

[Jaraiden]

I would like to point out thathaving the ingame time requirment is a bad idea. I know many poeple that never log of the game, almost. you can say they leave the game running 24/7. It is very easy thento *cheat* on the in game time by just leaving the game running when you AFK for hours...mabye days on end.

That is very true Ragon, but something is better than nothing. The time elements are there mainly to show some playing time as a dragon. Something should show an appropriate time as hatchling (generally levels 1 to 30 MINIMUM, preferably 40), a longer time as adult (level 40 to 90 it seems, but 100 is better), and then Ancient.

Can't compare times in these level ranges to the other races (no concept of aging amid them), but certainly can amid the dragons (and dragons of fantasy). Where time as an adult should be at least twice that as time as a hatchling. Let us look at 365 days (RL time) or 52 weeks. Figure 12 hours per week Dragon time, that gives 26 IG hours as a dragon . . . should be a very minimum (I like 40 or more IG hours). There should be something that shows you want to play a dragon, despite the race being incomplete, vs. some simple time element.

Kumu has nice guidelines for time requirements. Those can be met by a player wanting his dragon to become ancient, but could frustrate a player just out to power a toon quickly from hatchling to Ancient to fly and to play with the new abilities then go back to his biped character.

I'm all for game mechanics AE can implement. But ultimately it is up to the players for self control. This means, among other manipulations of game mechanics, of no parking in game while AFK (for long periods of time). Players will do that, however, as something allowing them a gain with minimal effort.

[Fireclaw]

Kumu has nice guidelines for time requirements.

Not quite sure what you mean. Kumu hasn't posted any suggested time requirements in this thread.[:O]

[Vesuvius]

Just hope they listen to us this time. I will be out for a week on vacation after this post. Please AE, make the requirements, especially the creation date, worth something.

[Jaraiden]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Jaraiden wrote: Kumu has nice guidelines for time requirements.

Not quite sure what you mean. Kumu hasn't posted any suggested time requirements in this thread.[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-3.gif[/img]

Just need to add numbers to it now.

I don't want to see people as ancients until they earn the right.

Having a guild powerlevel you, or your hoard does not earn you the right. You should have multiple requirements.

A) Time Since Creation.
B) Time In Game.
C) Time since adult.

"I created a dragon at release....but never played him." defeated by B and C.
"I created a dragon 2 months ago and left him logged in while I slept" defeated by A and C.
"I powerlevelled my dragon to adult" is defeated by A and B.

Sure, it doesn't catch everything, but you can easily add - Require all Ability quests completed to a certain level as well as level/hoard requirements....

Either way, I don't want to have to tell an Ancient Dragon "What is good to hoard?" or "What's Shield of Gold Do?"

buried in http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=19310

I recommend the posters in that topic above (and other Ancient RoP topics that David Bowman may have forgotten about) summarize their earlier posts here.

[Ktithrak]

Fireclaw wrote:

I recommend the following:
200 days since character creation - One year since creation might seem more reasonable but that might be a bit too discouraging to newer hardcore players. I don't see why a dragon who has 60 days game time but only 250 days since creation should be less qualified for ARoP than a dragon with 365 days since creation, but only 10 days played.

45-50 days in game - If there is going to be a timer, there should also be an in-game timer. This is especially important for weeding out those who just want to powerlevel to ancient, from those who are actually hardcore dragon players. Of course, this won't prevent players from logging in their dragon before going to bed AFK, but combined with other requirement, should help to weed out the true dragon players from the quick powerlevelers.

100 days since completing adult ROP (realtime-not game time) - additional protection to prevent dragon alts who were created long ago but never played from being suddenly powereleved to ancient once ARoP goes live.

Level 100 / 100 - There are quite a few dragons at level 100 / 100 on Chaos shard (probably a couple dozen). With the level cap soon to rise to 120, there is no need to set the level requirement below 90. The most dedicated dragon players should not have too much difficulty reaching this requirement. Alternatively, since many dragons may hate crafting or adventuring perhaps set the requirements as being one class at 100 and the other class at 80. the posted requirement of one class at 90 seems much too low, because players could potentially not bother leveling up the other class at all. HOWEVER: The level requirement might be ok if the ARoP quests require very high crafting ability. That would prevent players with powerleveled adventurer and no crafter levels from becoming ancient. Its a lot harder to powerlevel dragoncrafter levels.

Hoard requirement: 5-10 million - Yes, hoard is a mindless waste of time, but building up hoard is a mark of dedication to the dragon class. Many dragons have been spending months building up hoard in the expectation that some hoard would be required for ARoP. However, at the same time I can see that perhaps AE's choice not to have a hoard requirement is in recognition of the fact that the present hoard system is less than satisfactory and AE is trying to decrease reliance on hoard.

I agree with this reqs ( even if i need some more time for craft lev [:S] ), but what about setting ingame time to 40 -45 days? [:P] Not all of us are powerplaying [:)]

[dorrin]

first off i'd like to thank everyone who's posted simply because i have hope that it will persuade the dev team...

i agree 100 % with what jaraiden quoted from kumu...
all 3 timers are necessary, IMO.
i agree with the hope that if the requirement doesn't reflect a need for crafting that the quest itself will, as many have said, as a way to dissuade power levellers.
as for hoard... many have proven that high hoard is not necessarily a sign of dedication to being a dragon, but likely to a biped crafter in their guild.

Kumu wrote:
> Either way, I don't want to have to tell an Ancient Dragon "What is good to hoard?"
> or "What's Shield of Gold Do?"

hear hear.....

[Callak]

I think in game time should be your deciding factor, and forget since creation time all together.

[evilkarl]

An in game time is definately required. I have an alt that if I PL'ed its ad and craft (not that i ever would) would meet the requirements and I really don't care about the char a great deal.

An in game time requirement of equating to several months would be appropriate. 60-100 days in game I do not think is unreasonable.

As everyone knows I play a Biped but I do think that those dragons who have stuck to their guns (and even those that went and made a biped alt) should be rewarded to the time commitment they put in

[R`aven_Sky`Dash]

Asomewhat steeper day since creation i feel would be better...somewhere from 175-200 prolly andI do like the idea of a days since completed adult req, 75-100 area.
as stated in other posted some sort of hord req would show the dedication of the player and serve to weed out the 1's who "dont deserve" it..ie powerlv'd toons. 5- 10m would be just fine and acceptable.I dont mind the lv req at 90 in EITHER craft or adv to start...what ya should be to finish is yet to be seen. Given that bipeds wont be able to help in the "crucial" parts means no uber healing to me, which would serve to increase difficulty.