What's with all the Sad Faces? ... Let me tell ya...

[Phillip]

"Bigger & badder monsters and uber loot aren't the answer."

try it.

[Finduilas]

I've said this before and I'll say it again.

Content.

When I started back in January, after leaving the starter island, I ventured out slowly into the world. I crafted a little to support my adventure class. I could and would spend time doing something different each night. Sometimes I'd explore an area, gradually adding markers to my map for reference later, but was saddened that no exp was given for discovering new things. Sometimes I'd do a Darkstaff quest, just running all over. Sometimes I'd adventure, pick up a kill X quest from the trainer, and head out.
As a new level 20 ranger I'd head out into Lesser Aradoth or go south from Dalimond in what was a natural level progression, mobs getting harder the further from civilisation. I had a purpose to levelling too, I wanted to join, and have a meaningful input into our guild hunts; Satyr Islands, east blight, western deadlands, east of aug, all these scared me to death when I went there and longed to be able stand my ground there.
Once I started to approach level 40 I would head out and map the area east of aug, and peek into the blight, and I would fight there. It was logical, the further east you went, the tougher the mobs.
And there were still quests I could do, in the WD, Darkstaff, crystal quests and kill X.
I hit the ealry 60s and knew I would soon hit a road block, THEroad block; that which caused many players to quit by then, including guildies. The lack of high level content.
Unlike other mmorpgs I'd played there was no high level content beyond some mobs in the blight. Excluding RoP; NO level restricted areas, NO restricted areas requiring a quest item(key, totem) to enter, NO boss mobs related to quests designed to be killed by a raid size force, NO triggered ingame events (not the monthly dev-created ones) such as a war between two local races, NO special loot because the crafting ecomony HAD to be protected at all costs, NO epic weapon quests, NO epic or high level armor quests, NO dungeons or simliarareas requiring skill to negotiate, NO special crafted items, rings of (?) cloak of invis, etc. NOTHING for me to do with my guild, beyond the usual mob hunt, unless it was crafting, NO tools for creating guild quests for lower levels........
There was just the grinding of exp, and gradual upgrade to next tier item, with unexciting, very un-RPG styles names(cobalt ringmail chest guard of X, woot!!)

Then came the merger.
And the game got worse, not better.
My ranger no longer had ANY class quests.
Trophy quests required certain mobs, which wouldn't spawn in the new system.
Many of my existing quests were now broken (WD for example).
The only mobs that would spawn properly were designed for the multi class crowd, NOT a ranger with some healer levels.

I had looked forward to the merge patch with hope, at last the much needed content would start to be added, but instead existing content was bugged, broken or removed.

And that's just the adventuring side. I waited a looooooooooooong time to get a plot, during the summer, then a long time after the merge, even longer because the EU "merged" twice. So long that I had lost interest. Moreover, I was STILL waiting for Elven structures to be added.

Everything in HZ became a grind. I ground out enough levels to make a full suit ofDBL techedcobalt chainmail, only to have no mobs to level on to be able to wear it.

The biggest thing though was my 4 week break, beta testing EQ2. I decided not to buy EQ2 because it was not solo friendly, I didn't like the craft system, or having to leave my computer on at night to sell my stuff, and a bunch of smaller issues. However I did discover (or should I say re-discovered) what an mmorpgSHOULD have for content. If HZ had a fifth of EQ2s (or EQ/AO/AC/DAOC etc) but remained solo friendly I would probably have never left or in the future, never leave. I would have bought an expansion to explore the northern continent or eastern continent, would have waited for elven structures so that I could finally build my palace. Perhaps most of the people that left, decimating my guild, would have stayed.

I check here often, more in hope, than anything. Perhaps one day...

[Aquarius]

didn't read all the posts.. but your very right Aamer Khanwe the inhabits of istaria seriousley needs a purpouse.. some things to do.. big evil bosses to slay.. major crafting events (maybe an old castle ruin could popup that needs to be rebuilt)

Quests and Events that makes small changes to the world..

Some said there are older games with better adventuring, i have to agree with that too.. adventuring is part 1: fighting to defend your world from invading foes.. part 2: basically scavanger hunting, trying to find better weapons/armors/jewlery/coin usually there are many different armor types and weapons avalible for loot in different conditions.. from different states of damagedeq to ordinary to the rare magically imbued special weapon/armor/jewlery/spellbooks that makes a difference to your charactair, its the avlibility to find these special things different looking armors with different stats from crafted ones.. and other things maybe magical statuetts or wands that gives magic users a stat raise or some special ability... its also a lack of robes for magic users... there are things like this that makes you want to play non-mmorpg games like Dungeon Siege and Neverwinter Nights instead... if Horizons ever got some of these features instead of relying solely on crafted items i think there would be alot of more adventure people to become interessted in trying this game.. lets see this blighted items loot as one little step in the right direction.. also if the Dragon Lairs code would somehow enable creation of dungeons this would be a huge step forward IMHO.

[Syrith_Ice]

very good post I agree with what has been said.

All of my guild have left - and I dispanded it. I lack a point in playing. I think it was a mistake actually getting to lvl 100. I have alts but can't be arsed to play them. It is all the same lvl grind. I'm alos a lvl 69 fletcher and you know I can't even be bothered to get to lvl 70.

I've gone back to playing NWN because it has a point - quests with a visible result and excitment.

It is a terrible shame Hz is a good game but I've lost all interest.

Give us a Point.

and good thing that Unity looses those huge vaults maybe we'll get a community back not just crafters who stuff thier vaults. Not even the anchors are holding my attention - mainly because they have no real point

[Frons Von Frik]

We need some real events not the boring click this npc and click that npc...

[Gytowa]

I just started playing Horizons, but I can already see there is no point. I really think not having some kind of cap on your characters is a very very bad idea. I honestly dont think I am gonna continue to play this game. If they set a cap of X adventure levels andXcraft levels per toon ... I think I would stay. But, who am I? A paying customer .. only ONE paying customer ... I don't mean anything

[Sajid]

Agreed with the points and the encouragement.

heh, funny I am finding myself agreeing with Phillip yet again (DOH). Loot would do wonders. Decay, well its decay (just opinion).

[Crissa]

They give loot, Phillip complains.

They give more, Phillip complains.

They up the monsters... Phillip complains.

And yes, there's a lack of purpose. But mostly, there's a lack of community.

Where's the interest in making a community?

What you've hit is the edge of the campaign. It's always there; it's a game developer's nightmare - and it happens in every single game.

The way out isn't clear, and the method of community has fallen by the wayside.

-Crissa

[Aamer Khan]

If you will notice crissa, I mentioned community in the very first post.

Banding together to do ANYTHING gives us both purpose and community.

Plots will continue to hold our attention for awhile longer. But not forever.

Grouping with our bud's will also keep us going. But not if they all leave.

AE has done a truly awesome job in the last 5 months. They just need to ramp up a new event and I'm betting that they will then have all the time they need to make the dream come true.

[imported_Lycaunoss]

Tired and bored. Those two words sum it up for me.

[Aquarius]

They give loot, Phillip complains.

They give more, Phillip complains.

They up the monsters... Phillip complains.

And yes, there's a lack of purpose. But mostly, there's a lack of community.

Where's the interest in making a community?

What you've hit is the edge of the campaign. It's always there; it's a game developer's nightmare - and it happens in every single game.

The way out isn't clear, and the method of community has fallen by the wayside.

-Crissa

Crissa you cant honestley say there is much loot in this game ?

With a purpouse there will come community.

If there where broken castles to build (just for sake of example) people would start building and there would be the community working together. The community is here its just the purpouse that it lacks.

[Vandellia]

In realty its all to simple, Things have not progressed like they should have AE sat on a lot of Issues and problems for well over 6 months alienating a lot of the player data base. Im all for adding New content new mobs and new quests and new drops, However, Fix the long term problems first. get latentcy down fix fps Put in Missing formulas and tech and tech components, Stop NERFING the world to slow us down and Increasing the difficulty to make anything useful happen. If you give us a town to free or race to free we will be a lot happier then if we have to beg on our hands andknees for the promised fixes to many broken classes of crafters and adventurers. weSimply Need to fix what is broken then ADD new contentPut in whats Missing then Add New content. All said it that tempers flaira and people get aggrivated when theyhave been patiently waiting for long periods of time with out theirissues being addressed last time i counted I have45+ issues that are awaiting adressing By AE some go back as far as Game releast + 3 days this is Simply not a way to keep people in game

ALL said and feelings vented COME on AE give us a Reason to HOPE

[Anikitos]

Raids - aka slaying big bosses that drop things worth our time.

Nothing wrong in raiding.
Actually, raiding as a guild or a group of ppl will bring them closer together.
Why?
Because it will teach them how to work together and they will have fun slaying something more powerfull then themselfes...together.
It will make them feel proud of what they have accomplished as a unit.

Here is the problem though.
Inorder to kill something like this more then 1 time, you need motivation.
Nothing motivates a pure adv more then the potential "uber" reward.
Its that simple and we know it.

Sure you can kill Event Bosses for the greater good of the community, i am all for that and its fun.
But lets get serious, events are and will be limited.
It AINT ACCEPTABLE to have the need of a true raid once every 1 month or 2.
Not only is it not acceptable but it wont work as many advs will for sure leave of pure boredoom.

What i am talking about here is some adv content that is based maybe on some sort of quest that will trigger the boss encounter.
If that encounter takes place in an "Instanced" environment or not i dont care.
I am sure there are ways to work it out.

People have bad experiences from raids, i can relate to that and i understand it.
But my positive experiences with raids outweight the negative.

The key issue with raiding is to handle KS and griefing situations, once that is handled its pure enjoyment.
Rest, like loot distrubution, is up to the guild to handle.
If they cant handle it, its their problem and nobody is FORCING you to be part of such a raid force.

So to sum it up.

Event Raids
Boss Raids

Both are needed for different reasons and both give a purpose to advs to continue play HZ and not quit this game.


P.S
Blighted weapons dont give me a purpose. Actually they dont give me much.
I mean, how hard could it be for me to get such an item....its all about how many mobs i can kill to get the drops.
Nothing special and nothing challenging.
But give us a Boss with some Cohones that takes more then "zerg" tactics to take down, meaning brains combined with skill and tactics...and voila:

Content for Advs, that will most likely stay for a VERY long time in HZ.


Anikitos

[Drevar]

I believe one of the largest issues is the lack of long, difficult, and repeatable quests. We have had all kinds of new content along the way that gave us purpose. The problem is that after a month or so the quest or event vanished completely, taking that sense of purpose with it.

Building the Satyr mines and destroying the machines, freeing Feladan,Regal weapons and dragon techs, Recalling the Dryads were great fun but once done, that was it.

We need to have more content that stays put and is worth repeating: multiple possible rewards, like a single piece of a matched set of armor,epic quests that may span several tiers of adventure and/or crafting levels, or distributed camping quests (like Atlan weapons and GSx armor in AC). These don't have to be directly tied to the main plot of defeating the WA, but can be done to aid the good guys' progress in the war.

MAKE THE ARTIFACTS DO SOMETHING! I busted my ****** nearly a year ago building most of one (as a low level crafter) only to find out it was a lawn decoration. Close to a year later they still don't do anything. There are a million stories and quests that could be created around the function of the Artifacts and keeping them safe from the WA.

We NEED to have dungeons and stuctures that monsters can inhabit to house these new types of quests. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. The whole blight ambiance thing was neat at first, but I have long since turned off the environment system due to the horrid performance hit it causes.

All of these things tie into long term interest in the game. Yes we need a purpose, but it can't just last a month and be done with. We need fun, challenging, AND rewarding things to keep us going. Falling back to level grinding is fine as a break frombeing on the front lines of the WA war, but it has finite entertainment value.

Drev

[Tryagain]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Crissa wrote: They give loot, Phillip complains.

They give more, Phillip complains.

They up the monsters... Phillip complains.

And yes, there's a lack of purpose. But mostly, there's a lack of community.

Where's the interest in making a community?

What you've hit is the edge of the campaign. It's always there; it's a game developer's nightmare - and it happens in every single game.

The way out isn't clear, and the method of community has fallen by the wayside.

-Crissa


Crissa you cant honestley say there is much loot in this game ?

With a purpouse there will come community.

If there where broken castles to build (just for sake of example) people would start building and there would be the community working together. The community is here its just the purpouse that it lacks.

You miss things if you don't look at the standard fanboi mentality. You see it isn't AE or Tulga Games or Horizons that is the problem. Its all the complainers fault. The game went into Chapter 11 not because of inaction of AE but because the playerbase complained to much and drove people away... the community has slipped its our fault give AE a break...... yeah ok and I wonder what reality exactly these people live in. They are on cloud 9 and so far removed from reality that they will need a rocket ship to get back.

Threads like this that only bring forth the games earned short comings will get you no where with AE and the fanboi crowd. Well.... I can hope can't I ?

But I am not going to crucify AE totally here. They simply have to much to do right now to make things right with the playerbase. Perhaps the community could help them sort out priorities in a constructive manner ?

[Altair]

You miss things if you don't look at the standard fanboi mentality. You see it isn't AE or Tulga Games or Horizons that is the problem. Its all the complainers fault. The game went into Chapter 11 not because of inaction of AE but because the playerbase complained to much and drove people away... the community has slipped its our fault give AE a break...... yeah ok and I wonder what reality exactly these people live in. They are on cloud 9 and so far removed from reality that they will need a rocket ship to get back.

Threads like this that only bring forth the games earned short comings will get you no where with AE and the fanboi crowd. Well.... I can hope can't I ?

But I am not going to crucify AE totally here. They simply have to much to do right now to make things right with the playerbase. Perhaps the community could help them sort out priorities in a constructive manner ?

You know whats funny after reading all the post in this thread, I failed to read and post that said anything along the lines of it beong our or others fault because they complained and drove others away.

As for the thread only bringing forth the "earned short comings",I and I think everyone else knows this thread doesn't even come close to listing 10% of this games short comings.

And finally as far as Constructive Manner goes, With the exceptions of a few post everything was constructive. Do you feel trying to talk down At what you call "fanboi's" is constructive? So please do me at least the favor of not contradicting yourself with in the same post.

But alas all is not lost; although contradictory With your first paragragh you make a good point in the last one. Setting priorities of what the playerbase would like probably would help AE keep some of their player base from leaving, nut unfortunately, getting that information off a forum board will be heavily biased. Due to the fact that not everyone in game comes to these forums to post; And the fact that everyone want something different. I believe the saying goes you can please some of the people some of the time but you cant please all of the people all of the time. So I dont honestly know how well this would work for keeping the playerbase from fleeing from the game. Although I do think at least a little "show" ininterest on both sides would help. As long as its constructive.


Altair Argannon
Eyes Of Istaria

[AA0]

How do we save a dying community?
Our communities got mushed together, most people left and now we seem more fragmented then ever. Our new servers have yet to see much of a challenge or community project to bring us all together. We don't have to build a novo or tunnels, or machines to free somewhere. The little projects around the world are trivial and not challenging.

The game is missing a massive amount of content. I started a thread of this in the suggestions forum, but had to give up... the list can go on forever.

In beta there were spell animations, and building animations, emotes, item tricking and sound effects we no longer see. Where did these things go? how can anyone really feel comfortable in a game that has gone so stale with the same things over and over. Frankly, without the fluff in the game, it still looks like it isn't complete.

The epic spells in the game have all been removed, and 2 reintroduced. But nothing in a long time. Nothing of any importance in a long time. Our last big event was the killing of nazerdon... did that even end?

The loot situation is being addressed, but its been so poor for so long. The people that want it badly have left. Too little too late.

Events have been non-existant since the merge. Fall harvest had a cool trick or treat, but otherwise a few quick buildings. The winter event is a few npcs and forms... ? Come on, we are paying for this? The anchors event... was kinda an event right? I mean the anchors came... really were all screwed up, there was no lore or reason why they came. The auctions was an event too, 24 hrs a day watching a chat room is fun! Let me hand you my monthly fee for that.

If events don't come back fast, this game is as good as done for. Many games survive on events and the content added through them. They build community, add content, and are fun... all of what seems to be lacking right now, because everything is a boring grind.

Levelling - grinding for hours, no quests anywhere

Teched gear - grinding for comps, mass killing or mass pawn broker usage to get what we need. Even then, the gear all looks the same as before. Introduce real equipment customization... something someone can be proud of, not something everyone else has.

Construction and crafting - grinding to get massive amounts of plots refinished. No community projects to work on.

[Tigris]

I have no reason to play. Tired of the level grind. Bored of the level grind. There's nothing new to see or do. And the sheer number of lag issues and bugs grates on me.
Motivation to play: 0
Desire to log in: 0
Things I want to do in game: 0
Motivation to renew my subscription: 0

[Vahrokh]

Wow, if I started a thread like this I'd be labelled dragon whiner or slamboi. [:P]

Well, welcome to how dragons felt for more than half a year.

Only difference, while we found the situation awful and unbreathable, all the others but few lived the grandeur and could not tolerate uncomfortable voices. And now, when we will finally get a bone, the game will be deserted so we won't enjoy it.

Anyway now finally you collectively woke up... and discovered that in the end we are all in the same boat. This matters.

The samebanal concepts that a 3 year old understands, the very basics of a gamewere ignored, skipped, stepped on, spit upon.

- a game has monsters to kill. Obvious, uh?
-a game is something fun. Doh!
- increased content and increased grinding are not synonims. Oooo [:O][:O][:O]
- players need fun challenge. Challenge is different than being a god. A god is the most bored entity in the universe.
- players need reward for the effort put in their toon. See dragons. See hoard and its acknoledged clear usefulness.
- all love to be unique and original. See photocopy everything everywhere
- buildings have a purpose. A tavern seen as a renamed consigner is far from being a fun place. Nor building a factory or a shop with no gain has a sense.
- loot, prizes and ultimately unique reward is the juice of a game. See blighted sandstone slab.
- events, bosses, dungeons are not the evil. Evil is to place thousand of people chatting for a year in a increasingly dull, plain and treeless world.
- player community and friendess are a key asset. All was made to dismember, disperse, raise competition upon former friends. Techs Far West anyone?


I could go on for hours and hours.

ALL IN THIS GAME KNOW IT'S ALL PAINFULLY TRUE.

All these basic, dumb, obvious, natural, clear concepts require a gran total of 0 lines of code or programmer's time. They require to be assimilated.
Usually a 5 years old instinctively knows this. Probably this so easy concept at a certain age gets erased from developers or directors minds.

Well, to re-educate the respectable develorpersbrains I suggest them some titles they should learn frame by frame and worship:

- Baldur's Gate II to see how a solid, complete game has to be done. It's a reference game, something to tryandhopelessy emulate.

- Planescape Torment, to learn what an intriguing story andquests are. They usually don't even require more than little code yet you cannot forget some of these. Nor you forget the NPCs you meet. They have a standing personality.

- Drakan and The I of the Dragon. To learn how datated games can teach what a dragon player expects. Basically, lore, fun, a dragon who improves (I know, the four programmers working at that russian title are too many to emulate). They managed to model a dragon who grows, his body changes and becomes more impressive. He starts like a little piece of crap and becomes a demi-god. LEARN FROM THE MASTERS.

- Everquest, Wow: even these have good points. They are just other games... who happen to be succesfull. Is it because their customers are better? Is it because they are more original than Horizons? Is it because of the forced grouping? No, no and no. There is something other than that which mesmerizes hundreds of thousand players in choosing these games and not yours. Once again, they actually managed to do something that people happen to like, while you did not. It's time to wear the humbleness cape and go see what they did. To discover why they have 100,000 players while Horizons has 2000 and quitting.

People now are quitting in droves not because Horizons is lacking of i.e. content.
People are now quitting because they are finally waking up from the dream.

What dragons know since 8 months now is easily visible.

AE just did not get the knack of what people want, even when it's so excruciantly clear. And don't want to change.

Well hidden on a ivory tower, well distant from their own forums they don't feel like frequenting the rabble but for rare exceptions.

Players now are starting to see this. That they are valued exactly like a zero, while the cold perfection (???) of the code is exploited in a game with huge potential that is intentionally left undone and nerfed.

Like dragons.


P.S. My intent is not in blasting developers or anyone, but to let them see clearly, to become aware of the seriousness of the situation at hand. You are losing your most affectionate, hard-coreplayers to a deformated or at least not condivided nor approved the least vision of what a game has to be.

Do something, possibly that has a sense for the player base fast, because time is running out. Once again, it's not code or keeping busy programmers.
It's using common sense. The rest comes only after that.

[Rainbow]

I agree with Tigris with regards the comment about lag issues.

This evening I needed to make several logins to enable my character to actually run without appearing like she was drunk. Even just a couple of gates starts the process of wibble wobble oooops wrong direction again as she moves and it really does become tedious.

The worse part of all is the sheer length of time it takes for the game to allow you to relog. IfI click the little log in button it tells me time and time again that I cannot run a version of Horizons whilst one is still running.

These issues should be given priority over new content, for sure, however some glimpse ofnew and actually interesting quests to follow would make the wait more bearable.

I have mixed feelings about this player written quest thing. On the one hand it would be excellent to include a few quests from those players with imagination and interest in writing them, but on the other hand, for me, it rang warning bells that AE either has nobody with imagination and some sound writing skills or they are just too busy to spare the time for this much needed aspect of the game.


Rainbow