About spicked scales

[Uro]

Something I have been wondering about for a while is our spicked scales ability.

Now to my knowledge all damage shields in the game like spicked scales, cloack of thorns etc. etc. are supposed to ingore armour.

I remember that orignally spicked scales was actully the only of the damage shields that was working as intended, and that the others didn't ingore armour.

These days though spicked scales are not ingoring armour, the most obvious example is indestructible fyakkis where spicked scales will do 0 damage when their harden shell is active. I have noticed though that at least cloack of thorns do in fact seem to ingore their armour, and in this case do damage for around 140-160 per hit. You can also see this with other mobs that either have high armour, or armour buff abilities like harden shell.

I can't really nail it down when I started to think about this, so can't really say when it happened, but I actully suspect it has been here for a while without anyone noticing it, or at least mentioning it.

What I'm curious about though is if others noticed it, and if it's a bug or working as intended :)

[Dragor]

I noticed it a while ago, if you compare the damage of a cloak of thorns to a spiked scales some of them say that they do the same damage.. but spiked scales does alot less then thorns.

[Vahrokh]

<Vahrokh> Please check if it's right: "Question from a guy in game: why spiked scales do 0 damage to fyakkis while cloak of thorns does 140?"
<PJ> sounds like spiked scales either doesn't ignore armor , or should but isn't
<Vahrokh> exactly
<Korial[Unity]> SS doesn't ignore armour?
<Vahrokh> either CoT ignores what it should not ignore or spiked scales don't ignore what they should not ignore O_O
<PJ> well damage shields were changed to ignore armor
<PJ> i think its the later
<ncv`Leviathan> CoT != Spiked Scales
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<Vahrokh> Spiked scals DO consider armor
<Silowyi> Spiked Scales doesn't ignore armor :P
<Silowyi> it hasn't ever since they said it did
* Korial[Unity] lights the flamethrower pilot light
<Silowyi> been broken, etc...
<Dangit> I have the watercannon ready
<Silowyi> hehe
<Silowyi> it's /possible/ that it doesn't ignore ethereal armor
<Silowyi> but I'm inclined to think it doesn't ignore either
<Vahrokh> I think Amot got killed by my question.
<AmonGwareth|AE> looking at them right now, actually
<Vahrokh> woo
<Vahrokh> it's like as for marrows
<AmonGwareth|AE> both Cloak of Thorns and Spiked Scales do exactly the same type of damage
<AmonGwareth|AE> which is piercing
<Korial[Unity]> aye, but CoT ignores armor
<Vahrokh> yep
<Drulgar> Nerf the druids! :-P
<Drulgar> jk
<Korial[Unity]> yeah, nerf druids, but not the rangers :)
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<PJ> CoT should be selftarget on ly ;)
<Vahrokh> Same for silver strike and gold rage: silver strike costs about nothing and deals FAR more damage than 15 times more pricey gold rage which often does 0/0/0 damage
<ncv`Leviathan> I'd like to start this day off by comparing my multistrike to gold rage.
<Luca-[GameNetwork]> Oi!
<MytziPeedOff> now now, boys :P
<AmonGwareth|AE> there is no armor piercing or ignore on cloak of thorns
<Korial[Unity]> Amon: yes there is
<MytziPeedOff> play nice, or no cookies.
<PJ> on all biped damage shields there are
<Vahrokh> Amon this is being like that since MANY months
<PJ> glaring quills, pulsing spectrum, shimmering spectrum, CoT all ignore armor
<Fridlekh> ¬.¬
<Vahrokh> maybe the damage is shown as equal but game code treats them in 2 places and differently
<Korial[Unity]> enduring fyakki with harden shell up: 0 damage from bow, 0 damage from lightning bolt, 100 damage from CoT
<AmonGwareth|AE> could be the skill that is used to create the effect
<AmonGwareth|AE> cloak of thorns is set to use nature
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<AmonGwareth|AE> spiked scales uses no skill
<Vahrokh> I love it
<AmonGwareth|AE> not sure. all I know is that there is no setting on either ability that says "ignore armor"
<Vahrokh> what about assigning one?
<Korial[Unity]> Amon: trust me, CoT ignores armour
<Vahrokh> trust Korial: he's OLD and knows
<PJ> nah trust me, all ped damage shields do
* Vahrokh pets the old fart friendly
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<Korial[Unity]> I do more damage by getting hit with an avalanche of ore than by multishotting a mithril golem :)
<Vahrokh> oops Amon got hit by CoT
<Silowyi> um Amon that /was/ specifically in a patch note several times
<Korial[Unity]> Amadan: want some damage logs? (don't say yes, I have no idea how to log comabt dmg :) )
<Amadan-AE> YES!
<Amadan-AE> Send away!
<Korial[Unity]> ********, foiled
<Silowyi> (everything in the game makes it to the patch notes several times before existing)
<Drulgar> Salt rock bonus!
<Drulgar> :-P
<Vahrokh> Never say never with software. <--- 20 years doing software
<PJ> damage shields were changed to ignore armor back when they nerfed pulsing stones
<Silowyi> yeah
<Korial[Unity]> yup, PJ has it on the nose
<Silowyi> it was a much publicized change
<Korial[Unity]> and much rejoiced by druids and rangers
<Vahrokh> lol we did not even have pulsing stones
<Silowyi> and lamented by dragons who never noticed any increase in damage :P
<Vahrokh> it's almost a stereothype you know?
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<Vahrokh> Anyway Amon's gone away
<Vahrokh> please someone wait for him and feed the question about damage shields till he pukes ;)
<Korial[Unity]> he's probably saying "that bloody Korial, what does he know? this DB screen in front of me says nothing about ignoring armor..."

[oluviel]

Sorry if it's jumbled in the above post but, i didn't feel like reading the copy of irc chat vah posted. The simple fact about spiked scales and all damage shields for that matter that are stated as ignoring armor do in fact ignore it. However you cannot forget about resistances which are calculated differently. They add to ones armor in that specific area but do not count as armor.

[Fireclaw]

Sorry if it's jumbled in the above post but, i didn't feel like reading the copy of irc chat vah posted. The simple fact about spiked scales and all damage shields for that matter that are stated as ignoring armor do in fact ignore it. However you cannot forget about resistances which are calculated differently. They add to ones armor in that specific area but do not count as armor.

ah. so because spiked scales is rather wimpy as far as damage shields go, it is unable to penetrate a mobs resistances? When all biped shields don't have this problem? Not sure about that considering that Amon said that spiked scales and CoT do the same type of damage (piercing).

BTW: Thanks for the post Vahrokh [:)]

[Uro]

Resistance migth be the answer but I do not think it is in this case, beacus amon said that spicked scales and cloack of thorns are supposed to do the same type of damage.

If that is true, then wouldn't it mean that cloack of thorns where supposed to not being able to damage a indesturctible fyakki with harden shell? But basicly as I also said, indestructible fyakkis are just the most obvious mobs you cansee this with, onecan try and compare with other mobs like bloodsnouts for example,who I beleive(don't know for sure)don't have an especially high pierce resistance like beetles or fyakkis. In the bloodsnout case a cloack of thorns V will do it's usual 140-160 in damage, while a fully upgraded spicked scales will do about 60-80. That again seems to me migth be a question of armour, but I can't know for sure.

I do seem to remember that spicked scales used to do more damage, I specially remember the old satyr mobs like defiled and unclean satyr where spicked scale sometimes was your best bet in killing them since they apeard to be very vulnarble to that type of damage.

Anyway the whole thing has just awakened my curiosity, the more I think about it the more intrigued I get :)

[oluviel]

every damage shield that ignores armor is impacted by resistances. A resistance is not armor it just adds to your armor count to that specific damage and many npcs have high resistances.
In terms of harden shell, just like beetles have it sounds like an ARMOR increase ability not a resistance ability that is why spiked scale dmg does not change when they use it but our attacks from melle do.
Prior to the merge, spiked scales did more damage because many mobs did not have resistances. Fight the right npcs and your back to seeing spiked scales do decent dmg.
I do think cloak of thorns needs tuning to be comparable to ours i would say single use 3 min and less dmg, or they should increase the time on our ds ability, but that's a different issue.

[Uro]

In terms of harden shell, just like beetles have it sounds like an ARMOR increase ability not a resistance ability that is why spiked scale dmg does not change when they use it but our attacks from melle do.

Well here I have to disagree, when figthing beetles or fyakkis you will notice that spicked scales do damage them when they are not using their harden shell ability, but once harden shell is activated the damage is reduces significantly, in the case of indestructible fyakkis all the way to 0.

Please don't take my disagreeing with you the wrong way, I'm very happy that anyone is willing to discuss this issue, and glad that we can bounce ideas of each other :)

[Brokta]

Hmm he stated that the COT was nature based and that Spiked scales had no skill base. That might be the root of the problem with the base damage tables.
Just a Idea based on the IRC chat. thanks for getting the question asked. And as I read the log of the blight fixes and compare it to the IRC chat you had a week or so with Amon alot of what he could fix is on its way to us thanks alot for the effort V.

Also a long time coder myself, Iknow how a few well places commentswill help.

Brokta
100/94 dragon of Order

[oluviel]

every damage shield that ignores armor is impacted by resistances. A resistance is not armor it just adds to your armor count to that specific damage and many npcs have high resistances.
In terms of harden shell, just like beetles have it sounds like an ARMOR increase ability not a resistance ability that is why spiked scale dmg does not change when they use it but our attacks from melle do.
Prior to the merge, spiked scales did more damage because many mobs did not have resistances. Fight the right npcs and your back to seeing spiked scales do decent dmg.
I do think cloak of thorns needs tuning to be comparable to ours i would say single use 3 min and less dmg, or they should increase the time on our ds ability, but that's a different issue.

Fyakki are either bugged or have a different harden shell that adds a different form of armor. The harden shell of all the beetles i have killed lower my melle and spell damage but not my spiked scales which is supposed to ignor the armor. The resistence issue is not coming from somthing i made up, it camefrom the devs around the time of the merge And they were describing the differences between armor/resistences/wards and how our stats are factored into the whole process. It may even be on these boards if you look far enough back in the general forum.

[Vlisson]

hmm Amon left chat? why this? do you got an answer another day?

why dont use spiked scales our skill primal?

the Cloak of thorns is amazing if i look at spiked scales :(

[Deth]

I thpught it should use primal also but I think it is a ability not a spell like cloak of thorns. I am not sure what other abilities if any use an ability besides now instant heal. Would be nice if it relied on primal as I have my primal maxed out.

[oluviel]

if i had it my way spiked scales would be passive i think that would bridge the gap between the druid cloak and our spiked scales. I don't think it should do as much damage as the druids as long as they can only cast it while in druid form, but the duration of our spiked scales never did sit well with me.

[Varangaard]

Some of my observations on Harden Shell. Everyone's probably noticed that it is a tierless ability, just a "harden shell" without "I, II..... X" or so. This suggests it gives % boost instead of +XX.

Spiked Scales appears to ignore armor, this can simply be proven by fighting monsters of different tiers. I've noticed that resists do affect SS damage, I think this was when I grappled with some beetles (they have good natural pierce resist). Harden Shell, bringing SS damage right down to zero with Indestructible Fyakki, would then seem to add to resists instead of armor. (Incidentally, this suggests it is useless to monsters without any base resist scores)

Harden Shell on indestructibles makes a similar trick to spells. Prime Bolt, Blast, whatever - zero damage. Either this means they have resists across the board, or that it is an armor boost after all.

As dragons cannot multiclass to acquire dispel- or spirit bolt-type spells/abilities, it makes them very dangerous foes to us, and unrewarding time-effective-wise. If I have to fight a tier V/VI fyakki, I fly when they activate harden shell and try to hold their aggro as best as I can (fly low, land when they turn away, etc) so they don't start regenerating. After a minute or so has passed, it should be safe to re-engage.

[Uro]

One of my other reasons for suspecting that harden shell adds to armour is beacus another type of damage that is not affected by it is ethereal, and to my knowledge ethereal damage ingores armour but not resistance.

Spirit bolt will do the same amount of damage to a fyakki no matter if it uses harden shell or not as far as I know.

[Varangaard]

That is correct. My alt is a part-time spiritist and I can vouch that the tier III fyakki I fought a while back always received the same damage range, Harden Shell nonwithstanding. Spirit bolt however does ethereal damage. Meaning, the only type of resistance that would then affect it is ethereal resistance (as opposed to ethereal armor). I'm not sure if HZ even has that type of resistance... so whether Harden really improves armor or resists, is still open to debate. [:)]