multiclass...

[Ixalmaris]

Thats only a reason to cap the level to a total of 150.
Just look at the proposed 120 cap increase.
Now the problem is that this increase affects 1x100 and 10x100 characters. How would you balance this? Make it challanging for 1x100 characters, then the 10x100 (or like you propose 4x100) character walks through it and is bored again. Make it challanged for the 4x100 character and the 1x100 character is too weak.

And that will continue every time new content (or something like that) is added. The huge range which is allowed by multiclassing makes it impossible to find a point where TG can say "This is how powerfull we expect normal players to become" which is neccessary for making balanced and therefore enjoyable content for everyone.

Multiclassing also destroys any need of grouping. Why group when you can do all by yourself? And it destroys character individuality. With a cap of 150 or 200 levels, classes who multiclass would be different as they can't take all classes. But as it is now everyone has a fighter, a healer and a caster class. Those classes may vary (Wizard vs. Shaman etc.) but basically everyone is the same.

Sure,limiting the multiclassing now is impossible as it would kill the game. But when the game is succesfull again (or HZ 2 is made) multiclassing should be restricted.

[Aquarius]

Btw there is need for grouping with destroying anchors and other mobs also (RoP mobs comes to mind), then there is the argument that grouping will give better xp, grouping is more fun, beeing in a group will make it less likley to get killed if most players know what they are doing, you have someone to chat to while you play etc.. there are alot of reasons why i would rather choose a group over solo play. If i want solo play i can install some other non internet game.

But I think we have reached a point where neither of us will yeild in the argument. You are for limiting multiclassing. And im for the openess and free choisesystem (currently existing system). I dont feel a need to further discuss this argument.

//Aquarius

[Seranthor]

I'm rather concerned with all these 'nerf multiclassing' threads. Dragonkin want increased powers to make them equal to multiclassed bipeds but instead of pushing for dragon multiclassing they are attacking on two fronts, 'nerf multiclassing' and 'make us equal to multiclassed peds'... but they dont want to invest the time to level those additional classes... I see it for what it appears to me... GREED.


you want to be equal to multclassed bipeds then push for multiclassed dragons, and stop trying to even the playing field by taking from others.

[PJ]

Few games offer the freedom of being anything that a character wants to be, but this has led to a decline in the actual life of the game. most people who are starting now, are being powerleveled in all the classes needed to make the "uber character" who goes are and kills fairly easily. once these new recruits reach this point they feel they have obtained all that is to be offered and leave. Part of this could be the fact that the monsters at the low levels are nearly impossible to solo, and since there is hardly a reason to group here in horizons, not that you could find a group at low levels anyway, those that are not powerleveled are flustraited and quit because the world is too hard.

Making everything more powerful is not always a solution. Where should this end?
If it wouldn't be for the low playerbase, imo nerfing would be the right solution.

I don't say this out of envy or anything, I say this because totally free multiclassing makes balancing impossible and there has to be balance in the future when HZ wants to attract new players.

How should TG balance a game where the power of PCs are nearly unlimited? Should it make high level content so strong that 15x100 classes are chalanged, because thatsthe most powerfull level? That would mean that leveling to 15x100 is required.
At which level would you say "This is normal"? 1x100, 4x100 or 10x100?
Totally free multiclassing has only disadvantages except that it destracts from missing content. A restricted multiclassing system would be much better to balance.
I observed that every time someone says something against multiclassing everyone acts as if that means removing multclassing alltogether. No! We talk about restricting multiclassing, not removing it. Cap the Rating at 130 or the total level combined at 250 or so.

You guys don't appear to be familiar with what was AE's and I assume is no TG's concept of balance. Balanced is when a Rating X character has even odds versus a Rating X monster. Balanced is not a Rating X character being able to kill a Rating X monster everytime. Now balance is in theory an ongoing and admittedly they are shorthanded. Not all schools (single classed) are currently balanced, and not all mobs are balanced either. But its an imperfect world. Most mobs are balanced under the developers description of balance. A Rating 153 player should not be and is not balanced versus a Rating 100 or Rating 120 mob. A Rating 153 player should (and I do) utterly destroy a mob that much weaker than them. Oh and btw, I'm not actually balanced for my rating. A Rating 153/Level 153mob would beat the living tar out of me, I'd be lucky to knock it down to half health before perfect spell faded. And powerleveled characters go and kill easily? A powerleveled character may do great against some of the weaker mobs in the game, but what about some real mobs? So many people are so willing to underestimate the skill and experience needed to fight at your level/rating. I know players with ratings near or higher than mine who get the living snot beat out of them constantly. 50+ deathpoints.

Making everything more powerful is not always a solution. Where should this end?
If it wouldn't be for the low playerbase, imo nerfing would be the right solution.

I don't say this out of envy or anything, I say this because totally free multiclassing makes balancing impossible and there has to be balance in the future when HZ wants to attract new players.

How should TG balance a game where the power of PCs are nearly unlimited? Should it make high level content so strong that 15x100 classes are chalanged, because thatsthe most powerfull level? That would mean that leveling to 15x100 is required.
At which level would you say "This is normal"? 1x100, 4x100 or 10x100?
Totally free multiclassing has only disadvantages except that it destracts from missing content. A restricted multiclassing system would be much better to balance.
I observed that every time someone says something against multiclassing everyone acts as if that means removing multclassing alltogether. No! We talk about restricting multiclassing, not removing it. Cap the Rating at 130 or the total level combined at 250 or so.

AE/TG have showed none, zero, zip, zilch that content is being balanced for people with super high ratings. When they do add higher rated content, it'll be guess what....RATED CONTENT. Meaning that when it comes in it will be balanced for ratings 100-120, or 121-140, or 153. A player with 15x100 has a rating so high that there won't be content rated for him for a good while, mayhaps ever, but that's his lot in life. If he doesn't like it there's a way for him to drop schools. Maybe it'll make his life in a new top tier of content easier, so what? The point isn't to add a new tier of content, its to add content that's enjoyable no matter what tier you're at. Endgame anyone?

[Shaw Moking]

"Listen carfully ill say this only once ;-) *lol figure out wich movie this is from*

from 'Allo. 'Allo, TV series, 'it is I, l'eclair'...:p

[Ixalmaris]

And im for the openess and free choisesystem (currently existing system). I dont feel a need to further discuss this argument.

//Aquarius

So, taking 250-300 levels of whatever you want is not a open, free choice system? You said yourself that you think most people only level to 3x100, so why not limit it there? Because then people would get bored sooner because there is nothing more to do? That is a problem of the game and has nothing to do with multiclassing.

I'm rather concerned with all these 'nerf multiclassing' threads. Dragonkin want increased powers to make them equal to multiclassed bipeds but instead of pushing for dragon multiclassing they are attacking on two fronts, 'nerf multiclassing' and 'make us equal to multiclassed peds'... but they dont want to invest the time to level those additional classes... I see it for what it appears to me... GREED.

Uh, we have a telepath here. Someone who knows what all dragon players are thinking. Yes I am a dragon player and if dragons would be able to multiclass I and many others would gladly do it and also reach lvl 100 in 15 differen't classes. We do not want the power for free.
I argue for nerfing multiclassing because it makes it much harder to add content and because it partially makes players idenepnent from others.

@PJ

You are basically saying it yourself that multiclassing is unbalanced. When the cap is increased, how should a rating 120 monster be balanced? For 1x120 or for Xx100 (How many you need for reaching a rating of 120).
When everything is balanced for single classed bipeds, then why have multiclassing?
Interesting endgame for everyone. Good. When have you reached the endgame? 1x100 or 5x100?

[Seranthor]

Ixalmaris if you are willing to multiclass then instead of removing the reason many of us remain perhaps you'd be better served to invest your efforts in getting multiclassing for dragons... you'd actually find a supporter in me. As it stands most of the chorus to nerf bipeds only serves to alienate many of your potential supporters for the changes you want for dragons... :)


please drive through... :)

[Fireclaw]

I agree that multiclassing is the reason many bipeds currently stay in the game. However, it is FAR to easy to multiclass. The ratings penalty should mean something. Right now it means very little. I think the following changes should be made:

1. Give dragons some form of open-ended advancement that allows us to continue to grow in power indefinitely, just as bipeds can. This increase in power should cause a raise in rating, just like multiclassing. However, it need not be multiclassing. Some form of repeatable stat boosting and ability granting quest might suffice. Multiclassing would be best though. A comparable level of effort put into a dragon at high levels should yield a character at least as strong as a biped with the same amount of effort. Perhaps even stronger since the dragon had to bear with being extremely weak at low levels while the biped did not.

2. Make the ratings penalty mean something. It should take a LOT more to level if your rating is too high than it takes currently. Super-high ratings should be unattainable to all but the most dedicated player. Having a few 100s should be a mark of status - not just representative of the typical player. Note that this change should also affect the open-ended dragon advancement I proposed in the previous paragraph, making it difficult (but not impossible) to attain super-high ratings as a dragon.

[Ixalmaris]

Am I willing to multiclass? Yes, because of the same reason everyone else does it. Boredom.
That doesn't make the multiclassing system here good. When you read my posts you will see that I never used the argument "Multiclassing is stupid because dragons can't do it". My arguments are that the multiclassing system unbalances the game and makes it very hard/impossible to add interesting content for everyone.

Sure, as it is now, we would take any content as we are starved. But if this game to survive it needs regular content for everyone which is not possible when there is a so huge power gap among the players and no indication how powerfull TG expects the player to be. Should we be required to level to 4x100 to get to the high level content or is 2x100 enough? And god beware when someone wants to play a single class.
That you can drop a class is no solution. How many times have we heared the argument that people don't want to loose all the time they invested in their character?

[Aquarius]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Aquarius wrote: And im for the openess and free choisesystem (currently existing system). I dont feel a need to further discuss this argument.

//Aquarius

So, taking 250-300 levels of whatever you want is not a open, free choice system? You said yourself that you think most people only level to 3x100, so why not limit it there? Because then people would get bored sooner because there is nothing more to do? That is a problem of the game and has nothing to do with multiclassing.

What are you really saing here, are you agreeing with me and saying that multiclassing is not a problem ? How come you still want to limit (read nerf) the system if there is no problem.

Why i dont want to limit the system, cause i like the idea that you can continue developing your toon (and this way some players will stay longer in the game, good for Tulga and good for players) And since it is already in game andit been pointed out by David Bowman as a feature of the game that will not be changed.. i donteven know why we still are having this discussion.

But i can image a player that desperatley want to play a dragon and desperatley want it to be better than every other playable class to feel very much like they got the short end of the stick, just beeing stuck with nothing to do whenyou reach 1x100,i think this is why hoard was invented to have some means of improving a dragon after it reached lvl 100.. but apperently its not that big a deal and the idea was not all that.. maybe just maybe you should try using your creativity to think of a way to improve dragons with quests, a better hoard system, post lvl 100 progression..

I'm rather concerned with all these 'nerf multiclassing' threads. Dragonkin want increased powers to make them equal to multiclassed bipeds but instead of pushing for dragon multiclassing they are attacking on two fronts, 'nerf multiclassing' and 'make us equal to multiclassed peds'... but they dont want to invest the time to level those additional classes... I see it for what it appears to me... GREED.
[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Seranthor wrote:

Uh, we have a telepath here. Someone who knows what all dragon players are thinking. Yes I am a dragon player and if dragons would be able to multiclass I and many others would gladly do it and also reach lvl 100 in 15 differen't classes. We do not want the power for free.
I argue for nerfing multiclassing because it makes it much harder to add content and because it partially makes players idenepnent from others.

Here you go again agreeing that dragons should have a way to improve their toons and become more powerful.. but still misdirected creativity, calling for nerfing all non-dragons.

@PJ

You are basically saying it yourself that multiclassing is unbalanced. When the cap is increased, how should a rating 120 monster be balanced? For 1x120 or for Xx100 (How many you need for reaching a rating of 120).
When everything is balanced for single classed bipeds, then why have multiclassing?
Interesting endgame for everyone. Good. When have you reached the endgame? 1x100 or 5x100?

Doh it should follow the progression of the current rating system. Maybe you mean a rating 140 monster or something cause rating 120 is already in game. But they would still be following system wich is already in use... why invent some new rating system, we have a rating system.

Then still multiclassing is there for making the game interessting and promoting diversity, letting the player gain abilities and spell lines from different classes.

Yeah i feel for dragons not having this.. yeah its sad, but what starting a thread like this and keep arguing over and over... that is just incredibly sad not to say pathetic. You will get Ancient Rite of Passage in a not so distant future, pray it will be all you want dragons to be.

[Phillip]

you can't change the multiclassing system right now, Fireclaw. unless you wish to make demigods out of people who got the manhours to swing it all this time.

[Aquarius]

"Listen carfully ill say this only once ;-) *lol figure out wich movie this is from*

from 'Allo. 'Allo, TV series, 'it is I, l'eclair'...[img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

Bullseye [<:o)] [Y] [B]

[Anikitos]

Am I willing to multiclass? Yes, because of the same reason everyone else does it. Boredom.
That doesn't make the multiclassing system here good. When you read my posts you will see that I never used the argument "Multiclassing is stupid because dragons can't do it". My arguments are that the multiclassing system unbalances the game and makes it very hard/impossible to add interesting content for everyone.

Sure, as it is now, we would take any content as we are starved. But if this game to survive it needs regular content for everyone which is not possible when there is a so huge power gap among the players and no indication how powerfull TG expects the player to be. Should we be required to level to 4x100 to get to the high level content or is 2x100 enough? And god beware when someone wants to play a single class.
That you can drop a class is no solution. How many times have we heared the argument that people don't want to loose all the time they invested in their character?

Everytime there is a complaint in regards to multiclassing, 99% of those doing the complaining are dragons.

See the connection?

Multiclassing is not the problem.

The problem is that "Dragons" according to most fantasy books and lore are powerfull creatures mostly superior to "pathetic biped" creatures.

Dragons symbolize absolute power and in some fantasy books(Dragonlance) a dragon can make simple humans tremble in fear by simply looking at the dragon, dragonfear.

Dragons have allways been creatures bigger then life, strong and powerfull and clearly "not balanced" vs bipeds, even if dragon slayer "TEAMS" where able to defeat some of them.

Anyway, given what we know of Dragons lets see what kind of ppl choose to play dragons.

Obviously ppl that are in love with the idea of being an allmighty killing machine that inspires awe and fear and has absolute power.
After all, they are Dragons...strong and powerfull and demand respect.

So, the kind of ppl playing Dragons are in love with this power.

Now, lets look at Horizons.
To put it simply, dragons are pathetic.
They die too easy and their armor is lacking, their firepower is also lacking in many regards. Oh, and they also have to pay to do dmg...rofl.
Agood multiclassed biped is a TITAN Demi-God compared to the flying reptiles.
There is no comparison.
When i played in teams as a Cleric with a rating 155+ and had dragons in my team, they allways made me work hard to keep them alive.

Here is the irony. (This is at Kaa and the dwarf was my friend Fhrain.)
A dwarf friend of mine comes along and voilia, immunity to dmg(timed), absolute destructive single hit dmg and area dmg. He could easy outdmg a squadron of flying reptiles. So could I if i was not focused in healing.

Keeping him alive was a piece of cake as healing was hardly needed, keeping the dragons alive is a different matter.

Same thing in Eastern Deadlands, try to keep a dragon alive vs a vexator or Abominations or some elite WA forces...rofl. Its hard work.

So, a simple little Dwarf, build right and equiped right, is alot higher in the evolution stage then the Mighty Dragons.
Think about it....a dwarf vs a Dragon.(I aint taking the other races up, taking dwarf as an example because of size.)


Naturally, this fact has pissed off the dragon population.
They feel cheated, they put their money on the wrong horse.
They are angry at this injustice.
Their hatred fuels them to stay onboard HZ, hoping to get a glimpse of the Power that some of us have enjoyed for a very long time...
They are getting more pissed because they dont exactly see any change.
So what do they do, they want to nerf ofcource...they are angry.
Understandable.

When i tried a dragon on my first days in HZ, i deleted it 2 days after because it sucked.

But I understand their frustration, their race label clearly states they are dragons, creatures of powerbut.....their performance reminds me and others off:

Oversized Chickens or Sitting Ducks. (The later would be true if PVP was ingame, count on it)

They are tired of being laughed at.

I agree with them. I only laughed at dragons when i first started one, after that i just pity them.

The remedy is ofcource in boosting the dragons, not nerfing multiclassing.
But the dragon population dont feel that the boost will put them anywhere near the "Titans"...so they cry and whine and cry and whine.

HZ has not done justice to the dragons i fell in love with in Dragonlance, HZ's dragons are not worth that name.




Anikitos

[Ixalmaris]

Sigh, its useless to discuss multiclassing here as everyone when hearing a complain about the multiclassing goes into "Dragon player whining" defense mode and rants about lazy powerhungry dragon players, no matter what is said about multiclassing.

Look again at my arguments. Non of them have to do with dragons. Personally I am satisfied with my dragon.

Has multiclassing kept HZ alive? Yes, because it provided the players with something to do when there is no content. Does that make multiclassing a good system? No.
Is it impossible to change the multiclassing system at the moment? Yes, because many player would see it as nerf and will leave which will kill HZ. Does this make multiclassing a good system? No.

The multiclassing system as it is now makes implementing content hard or impossibleas the spread of the power in HZ is simply to big with no defined point where the "Endgame" (If it will exist someday) begins.
YOu forget that HZ will not stay as it is now. Either it will add content and attract new players or it will die. For now adding content is still possible as nearly everyone is high powered with 3 or more 100 classes. But when new players come and we have players of all power levels, then adding content will become much harder. How far would you expect a player to level to compete in the Endgame? 3x100? 5x100?

Everyone who has multiple 100 levels leveled because there was nothing other to do. When there is new content do you still expect that new players grind their 5th 100 class? I wouldn't. And because of this a problem is created where it is hard to add balanced content and balanced rewards.

Also, the multiclassing system removes imo a bit of flavor. I don't believe in people who can do it all. Either one should be very good at one thing and very bad at nearly all other things, or should be ok in many proffesions, but nowhere as good as a specilized person. But with the multiclassing we have now, everyone can become a expert in everything. Sure the current active class makes a difference in what can be made how good, but you can change this with a mouseclick and there is no benefit a full warrior has over a full warrior + full healer. The warrior has even a disadvantage.

And for those who haven't understood it yet. I do not want to remove multiclassing. I want to limit it that there is still plenty of freedom to customnize his character, but it is impossible to be an expert at everything. That, in my opinion, would be more rewarding than beeing able to do everything, like the dozens of other players too.

@Anikitos
When 99% of the multiclassing complains come from dragons, does that mean that 99% of all dragon players are jealous whiners or that 99% of all bieped players are greedy powergamers who don't want to give up their deityhood?

It can be argued either way, so just lets stay clear of this topic, ok?

[Cobal]

Dragons are not crying nerf here, neither are they whining.
why is it that whenever a dragon says anything at all some asshole needs to call it wining.

Currently the only dragon whining here is me, I'm whining about bipeds whining about dragons.

Remember when us dragons got gold rage and silver strike?
ALL bipeds cried out to have us nerfed. (in the well known tazoon thread "Lets state it, Dragons do WELL over a 1000 dmg with GR")
Pot calling the kettle black.

Anyway, given what we know of Dragons lets see what kind of ppl choose to play dragons.

Obviously ppl that are in love with the idea of being an allmighty killing machine that inspires awe and fear and has absolute power.
After all, they are Dragons...strong and powerfull and demand respect.

So, the kind of ppl playing Dragons are in love with this power.

Heh, you are funny. Thats the most moronic assumption I have ever seen.
Only an extremely small percentage of the dragon players is there for the "power".
And they leave before reaching lvl 10 when they see their hatchling get beat up by a maggot.

[refuse]

1. Give dragons some form of open-ended advancement that allows us to continue to grow in power indefinitely, just as bipeds can. This increase in power should cause a raise in rating, just like multiclassing. However, it need not be multiclassing. Some form of repeatable stat boosting and ability granting quest might suffice. Multiclassing would be best though. A comparable level of effort put into a dragon at high levels should yield a character at least as strong as a biped with the same amount of effort. Perhaps even stronger since the dragon had to bear with being extremely weak at low levels while the biped did not.

Ok, now here I have some questions

1) How is a low level dragon less powerful then a low level biped?
Now based on my understanding, level for level dragons are quite a match for bipeds until bipeds start getting into multiple classes.

A level 1 dragon can cast spells, have built in armor (horde), and fight, can heal.
A biped at level 1 (1 level) can do one of those.

If we jump up to say level 60 (dragon level 60, biped with one class at level 60, no other classes) A dragon can heal, cast spells, have armor, probably fly, and more. The level 60 can do one of those. Warrior, mage, cleric, nature (being able to do more then one thing actually)or spirit. Now depending on the biped at this time, they might/might not be a match (depending on the class) for the dragon. But a Dragon at this point is an all around fighter.

Now we jump to level 100, and again, the dragon is a much better rounded character then the biped. As a mage biped (only mage) can't heal as well as the dragon, can't have the armor of the dragon, can't do the HTH damage of the dragon, can't fly to escape and more.

So I would say 1-100 on average the Dragons are a better match then a single class biped.

Now bipeds multi-class to make up for the single class limitaions. They do some cleric to heal, they do some mage for spell, they do some nature to stun. But at this point they have done 3 classes to have the same abilities as a dragon. And their rating means they are wasting Xp to have these extra abilities.

The dragons on the other hand spend time doing quests, which add to their abilities and their experience (one class). They gain spiked scales, they get their rages and such. Also, everything they do feeds into this one class, helping the one class. When the biped switches to mage he can only use the armor of the mage, at the level of their mage. The dragon is always it's highest level.

Now the problem comes in at 100. The Dragon is done. The biped can switch classes to continue to gain xp and progress as they play. And ultimately the Biped with 2-3 classes under their belt will be more powerful then the dragon.

But I don't see how at low levels dragons are less powerful.

Another example is crafting.
It takes2 schools for a biped to do what a dragon does with one. Blacksmith and Scholar are needed to do the same abilities a dragon does. And then the biped needs several tools in addition, and needs to change them depending on the levels they are, and so on and so on. The advantage the biped gets for needing these tools and sperate classes is the ability to tech the tools. The Dragon's advantage, once they can do it, they don't need anything else.

And that is I think the point of this difference.

Dragons can do everything they need in 2 classes. They are warrior, healer (self with small group heals), and mage in one class. They are also blacksmith and scholar in one class (dragon crafter). They have capacity quests instead of cargo armor (always usuable regardless of class, where as a biped changing classes may not be able to wear their cargo clothing), they don't need to carry their tools with them. The bipeds on the other hand have jewelry, cargo clothing, tools to make up for this lack of ability. And yes, the bipeds can specialise alot better then dragons.

But that is the point. A biped level for level is better at one thing then a Dragon. The Dragon on the other hand can always do anything it can do, as it only has one level to worry about. They are the jack of all trades. Their one class can make anything they need except disks (and build, but that is a lair issue, i.e. missing content). They can make thier armor, their weapons, their spells all with one class. That is 2 classes, and double the Xp for the Biped.

So what does all this mean?

I think that a step back from the "Dragons stink compared to bipeds" is needed. At level 100 (equal XP spent between dragon and Biped) the dragon is a much better rounded character. The Biped would either be highly specialised, or of a much lower level as XP is wasted with rating differences.

2. Make the ratings penalty mean something. It should take a LOT more to level if your rating is too high than it takes currently. Super-high ratings should be unattainable to all but the most dedicated player. Having a few 100s should be a mark of status - not just representative of the typical player. Note that this change should also affect the open-ended dragon advancement I proposed in the previous paragraph, making it difficult (but not impossible) to attain super-high ratings as a dragon.

It does.
Solo multiclassing is a pain.
Let me give you an example.
I am a 65th level blood mage, and a 54th level Healer.
I decided to do some scout, for fun and to get the speed, and to do something else.
WHen I switch to Scout, my rating is 50 (first level scout). That means as a scout I have to kill 25th+ level mobs to get any XP. But as a first level scout, I can't hurt 25th level mobs. I can't hit them to do damage.
Now if I switch to say 1st level mage, I can use spirit bolt and do damage. And given time I can kill one mob, for 80xp.
So the ratings are a massive penalty.
But what you are actually complainging about is the PowerLeveling. Where a person switches a class, goes stands next to their high level buddy and gains levels fast. That can be done.
But doing it yourself, doesn't work. Or you have to plan it out alot better early on in your carreer. Note as a first level scout, I can hardly heal, I have to save all my T1 Heal spells and my spell book is already full.

So I think the "make the rating system more of a penalty" thing is really a statement made without understanding the problem. I am not trying to be mean, I am making a point. Soloing a class against a rating is difficult, as you can't get the Xp you need to level the lower class, as you can't touch the mobs you need to kill to get the Xp. The only solution I have found is Trophies. Collect trophies of the appropriate level. This means killing the mobs I am killing gets me 0 experience, but I get the Xp from turning in the trophies. Which isn't bad. But slow.

My opinion is basically that the dragon's main problem is the level cap. Same as bipeds. The rating system penalises leveling lower level classes by limiting the XP you get. Of course the work around is power leveling near your high level friends, to make up for the fact that you can't hurt the mobs yourself.

[Vesuvius]

Dragons are not crying nerf here, neither are they whining.
why is it that whenever a dragon says anything at all some *** needs to call it wining.

Currently the only dragon whining here is me, I'm whining about bipeds whining about dragons.

Remember when us dragons got gold rage and silver strike?
ALL bipeds cried out to have us nerfed. (in the well known tazoon thread "Lets state it, Dragons do WELL over a 1000 dmg with GR")
Pot calling the kettle black.


Anyway, given what we know of Dragons lets see what kind of ppl choose to play dragons.

Obviously ppl that are in love with the idea of being an allmighty killing machine that inspires awe and fear and has absolute power.
After all, they are Dragons...strong and powerfull and demand respect.

So, the kind of ppl playing Dragons are in love with this power.

Heh, you are funny. Thats the most moronic assumption I have ever seen.
Only an extremely small percentage of the dragon players is there for the "power".
And they leave before reaching lvl 10 when they see their hatchling get beat up by a maggot.

Antikto's point does have some truth to it, but its not exactly accurrate. People that play dragons, especially the ones who have been around for a long time, play them because they love DRAGONS, not because they want to be an 'allmighty killing machine'.

Naturally, these people have a certain image of what a dragon is. While this varies from dragon to dragon,Antikto (sorry if Im butchering your name) came pretty close for a generalization in saying 'strong and powerful and demand respect'.

As we all know, dragons dont have any real 'strength and power', and whatever we do have, it can never compare to the kind of power a biped character can achieve. As a result, dragons dont get any respect for being what they are. In an MMO, respect is directly proportional to how powerful you are in game, what you can do, handle, kill and what you have done with that power to help others (and I dont mean powerleveling). Dragons are 'unimpressive' to a smartly multiclassed biped, and thats giving alot of slack.

Sure we look like dragons, we even fly like dragons. But thats it. We are a hollow shell of a dragon because we dont have the power/strength to live up to our image. We area marketing ploy, and its deeply insulting to those players who take their dragon seriously, who keep playing in hopes that one day maybe Tulga might turn things around, yet see nothing change past minor improvements that really do very little to improve the situation.

So while he is correct in saying that dragons are upset because of their disparaging difference in power, that that difference results in dragons feeling hollow, he was inccorrect in saying that people play dragons FOR that power.

AE didnt just drop the ball on dragons, they drop kicked it. They chose to take the easy way out of their own success and make dragons weak all throughout rather than very difficult to play but highly rewarding in the end because theydidnt want a game with nothing but dragons. Eithercase could have accomplished that, theformer was just the lazy way out.They chose and continue to choose to avoid the latter.What about the ARoP? Look atthe requirements, they are laughable, especially if anyone expects some kindof uber reward out of it.

[bright]

Obviously few of yall even read the original post, but it still ALLOWS multiclassing, but it is restricted to 1 class full level and 1 class at 50 percent. this allows people to freely mix and match their skills.

Also i only use dragons as an example simply because they are by far the EASIEST example to use. i could mention my monk or disciple and you know what THEY SUCK TOO. the fact is multiclassing should not be REQUIRED in order for anyone to compete and have fun.

Should i talk about the monk fine ill talk about the monk. Guess what he was a PURE class monk, OMG THE EEEEEVIL a pure class, WHAT IS THAT. pre merger yep he could kill easily. after the merger when the mobs were ramped up to be more competive to a multiclassed byped, guess what HE COULDNT KILL ANYTHING5 LEVELS BELOW. This is the point of your "nerf" nerf to multiclass. with the way things are people are REQUIRED to multiclass in order to compete, and that is not the way the system should be. the system SHOULD be where you CAN multiclass if you WANT, but can still compete on an ALMOST equal level if you dont want too. as it is thats virtually impossible.

So instead of complaining about how this would effect you right now, maybe you should try to appeal to the life of the game. Even with any of the prosected "NERFS" as you call them, they still allow you to keep your work, but limit how many of the classes you can use at any one time.

On a side not yea i would level up another class with my dragon cuz personally my melee sucks my magic sucks my healing sucks. face it EVERYTHING SUCKS, so here is the thing where in order to compete someone MUST multiclass.

[Ixalmaris]

@refuse

Yes, dragons have all that. But they are inn all areas weaker than a biped.
They can't heal as good as a cleric (heck, even as a paladin), can't fight as good as a warrior, can't cast as good as a mage, and can't craft as good as a blackmith or sholar and their capacity increase is only a fraction of cargo armor.

As long as most players weren't maxed out, this was not such a big problem as it is now (But it still was a problem back then as dragons are in some ways very weak. their spells and heals are laughable for example). Now nearly all bipeds are multiclassed to the extreme and a Warrior/Cleric/Mage/Sholar/Blacksmith simply does everything better than dragons.

[Fireclaw]

1. Give dragons some form of open-ended advancement that allows us to continue to grow in power indefinitely, just as bipeds can. This increase in power should cause a raise in rating, just like multiclassing. However, it need not be multiclassing. Some form of repeatable stat boosting and ability granting quest might suffice. Multiclassing would be best though. A comparable level of effort put into a dragon at high levels should yield a character at least as strong as a biped with the same amount of effort. Perhaps even stronger since the dragon had to bear with being extremely weak at low levels while the biped did not.
Ok, now here I have some questions

1) How is a low level dragon less powerful then a low level biped?
Now based on my understanding, level for level dragons are quite a match for bipeds until bipeds start getting into multiple classes.

A level 1 dragon can cast spells, have built in armor (horde), and fight, can heal.
A biped at level 1 (1 level) can do one of those.

Actually a level 1 dragon starts zero armor: it has no hoard and no inherent natural armor. If hoard is fed to that dragon, the level 1 dragon can get a maximum of +4 armor from hoard. If the dragon puts on an armor chest scale (can only wear 1 scale at level 1) the level 1 dragon can get another +10 armor. Socket that scale with a level 1 armor crystal and the max possible armor any level 1 dragon can achieve from all sources combined is just 16 armor. Compare that to a biped who gets all its equipment slots at level 1.

Even at level 60, a dragon will be vastly inferior in armor to a biped, especially considering that the dragon's roll is basically the same as a warrior's. It doesn't make much sense comparing a pure class biped to a pure class dragon, because most players don't usually wait to level 100 before multiclassing. They do some multiclassing right away, even if its taking mage to 36 for multicast, cleric to 10 for rez, or warrior to 2 for parry.

I've already discussed in my first post how dragons are less powerful than bipeds. At maxed level, we cannot perform in ANY roll as effectively as a biped. Our healing spells are a joke - the worst in the game. A T2 revitalize is better than the best level 97 dragon HOT. Our combat spells are ineffective and slow against similar level mobs, we can melee, but at the cost of hoard, and even then we aren't very good at melee because we have the armor of a berzerker without dodge, block, or parry. We also do considerably less damage than a berzerker. We cannot rez. We cannot debuff. Our buffs are less than half as powerful as biped buffs, etc. Essentially, if you look at any roll a dragon might fulfill at maxed level, dragons are vastly inferior, with the possible exception of scouting - but even then scouting is not really needed with the way mobs now only spawn if yous sit in one place for awhile.