Primal Heal

[evilkarl]

How about a casted primal based heal in a similar vien to revitalise however with a much wider variance between min and max to emphasise the chaotic unfocused nature of primal magic.

I think by adding even one reasonable recycle direct heal to dragons it would greatly improve their combat ability.

Perhaps
Primal Heal I = 30-70
Primal Heal II = 60-120
Primal Heal III = 80-240
Primal Heal IV = 100-330
Primal Heal V = 120-400

Then scale it based on primal skill

Allow Primal Cleanse, Primal Heal Increase, Primal Heal recycle (all techs that should be created and appliable to breezes)

Optionally...Make it cost equivilant hoard to what it heals but that would probably just cause crying.

[Dragonboy]

Nice idea, except indeed the possible hoardcost... that would make this dragon [:'(]...
Not because of the cost, but mostly because of the grinding of raising hoard again...

Dragons would like such a spell... [H]

Good suggestion Evilkarl... [Y]

[Fireclaw]

Any healing is better than what we have now.

My take on hoardcost is that abilities/spells should only cost hoard when they are BETTER than what bipeds get for free. After all, the added power comes at the price of the hoardcost to use the ability.

If an ability/spell is comparable in power to the biped equivalent, then there should be no hoardcost. The numbers for primal healing proposed above look good, but at least at Tier V, the average healed is considerably lower than the biped equivalent. Therefore, there should be no hoardcost.

[Vesuvius]

Or just improve the currentprimalHoTs to function as or more effectively than the revitalize lines.Heres anotherquote from my suggestionawhile back.

Revamp of the Spell HoTs. Currently there are four lines. Two of these are never used. I suggest changing them so that (Spell lines 1-4):

1) Short term Hot, same timer as current Dragon HoTs. Heals aboutthree times whatQuickening Breezedoes currently for the six tic duration. Single Target.
2) Medium Term Hot, Three times the duration of current dragon HoTs, 2 minute recharge. Heals for the same amount as Quickening Breeze. Single Target.
3) AoE Group Version of 1. Higher requirements and slightly less effective.
4) AoE Group Version of 2. Higher requirements and slightly less effective.

Personally, Id prefer something like this to accomplish the same effect.

A valid suggestion nonetheless though. Dragons DO need better healing ability. If they add hoard cost to such a utility ability though, it would be a smack in the face. I say revamp the breezes.

[gopher65]

OK not to drag up the old debate once again, but dragons play a single class. So choose which you want:

1) Healing almost as good as a cleric
2) Armor and damage better than a Warrior
3) Greater damage/spell than a mage
4) All of these but all have drawbacks (like massive hoard drain, high skill to use etc)

These are mutually exclusive. You can't have them all. It would simply be stupid. So choose one thing and harp on that (I know having no heals sucks. Played warrior, played Chaos warrior. Played mage. Played dragon. Also played healer and didn't like the crap damage:P).

My point is that you only have one class. You can't have it all with only one class without major consessions.

Maybe that is your real problem? You don't like not being able to multiclass? WELL THEN START COMPLAINING ABOUT THAT AND STOP ASKING TO BE GIVEN EVERYTHING IN ONE CLASS. If a single dragon class is the real issue, and everything else is just a symtom, then ffs tell that to TulgAE.

[Dragonboy]

My point is that you only have one class. You can't have it all with only one class without major consessions. Maybe that is your real problem? You don't like not being able to multiclass? WELL THEN START COMPLAINING ABOUT THAT AND STOP ASKING TO BE GIVEN EVERYTHING IN ONE CLASS.

Although a part of me would like to see dragons multiclass, another part doesnt want to be like bipeds... Did someone ask that we want to multiclass?

[Vesuvius]

OK not to drag up the old debate once again, but dragons play a single class. So choose which you want:

1) Healing almost as good as a cleric
2) Armor and damage better than a Warrior
3) Greater damage/spell than a mage
4) All of these but all have drawbacks (like massive hoard drain, high skill to use etc)

These are mutually exclusive. You can't have them all. It would simply be stupid. So choose one thing and harp on that (I know having no heals sucks. Played warrior, played Chaos warrior. Played mage. Played dragon. Also played healer and didn't like the crap damage[img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]).

My point is that you only have one class. You can't have it all with only one class without major consessions.

Maybe that is your real problem? You don't like not being able to multiclass? WELL THEN START COMPLAINING ABOUT THAT AND STOP ASKING TO BE GIVEN EVERYTHING IN ONE CLASS. If a single dragon class is the real issue, and everything else is just a symtom, then ffs tell that to TulgAE.

There are consessions. Dragons have to do quests and hoard in addition to normal leveling. If a dragon wants to be any good at primal, he/she has to spend training points in primal. The same applies to tooth and claw. So if a dragon wants to have hit points or stats from training points, they have to sacrifice either their primal or tooth and claw effectiveness. Dragons dont get all of their equipment slots at once, making their level progression that much more difficult (the last slot being at level 90). Dragons also dont get ANY bonus to adventuring from crafting at 100/100.

Bipeds also get outright better equipment, even after you take into consideration the innate 4ac per level. In fact, you can combine it with max hoard too, and a dragon /might/ come close to a cloth wearer in armor.

If TulgAE insists on forcing dragons to be a single class in a multiclassing game, then they ******** well better make that single class be able to survive in a multiclassing game. So far they have failed in doing this, most likely because it is near impossible to do. A strong hoard revamp would be a great start, but regardless, dragons need some kind of healing ability.

If the breezes were changed to what I suggested, a dragon would have the healing ability of around the revitalize lines. Considering all of the other things they have to do in addition to progress that bipeds do not, it is not without its required effort.

In all fairness, dragons really should have higher AC than bipeds. Why? Because they do a hell of alot more work to get their armor up (at max hoard).

Dragons are not the same as a 'single biped class'.

[refuse]

There are consessions. Dragons have to do quests and hoard in addition to normal leveling. If a dragon wants to be any good at primal, he/she has to spend training points in primal. The same applies to tooth and claw. So if a dragon wants to have hit points or stats from training points, they have to sacrifice either their primal or tooth and claw effectiveness. Dragons dont get all of their equipment slots at once, making their level progression that much more difficult (the last slot being at level 90). Dragons also dont get ANY bonus to adventuring from crafting at 100/100.

Not 100% true.
Dragons gain the use of scales at level (same as bipeds armor).
Now the stat bonus is nice for bipeds. Then again a biped needs to do 2-3 Classes to have the same abilities a dragon does with one. So differenet subject.

Also a biped has to spend TPs just as a dragon. A multi-classing biped has to spend XP that could be spent on their first class. So the problem again is the artificial level cap dragons suffer.

A biped that is multi-classed will have better stats because of multiple classes. IF a dragon could spend as many pts towards level as a biped, then the differnece would be smaller. Butbecause bipeds have unlimited (limited by the number of classes) ability to spend XP, they can gain the maximum stats without expenditure by spending XP in each of the classes.

If Dragons could continue to spend XP, they would find their stats, while advancing in a fixed area, could match a biped who multi-classed, because the Biped wastes points through rating loss.

Bipeds also get outright better equipment, even after you take into consideration the innate 4ac per level. In fact, you can combine it with max hoard too, and a dragon /might/ come close to a cloth wearer in armor.

Then again, horde (not for magic) adds to other things.

If TulgAE insists on forcing dragons to be a single class in a multiclassing game, then they ******** well better make that single class be able to survive in a multiclassing game. So far they have failed in doing this, most likely because it is near impossible to do. A strong hoard revamp would be a great start, but regardless, dragons need some kind of healing ability.

True, not going to argue this.
But again, it shouldn't be on par with a Healer. Or if it was, it should be on a longer timer then a healers.

If the breezes were changed to what I suggested, a dragon would have the healing ability of around the revitalize lines. Considering all of the other things they have to do in addition to progress that bipeds do not, it is not without its required effort.

I would love quests. As it is, it is only the grind.

In all fairness, dragons really should have higher AC than bipeds. Why? Because they do a hell of alot more work to get their armor up (at max hoard).

Dragons are not the same as a 'single biped class'.

Absolutley, but they only spend single biped class Xp to get to their levels.
a level 50/50 biped spent more then 2xlevel 50xp. Rating eats the Xp.
So dragons having one class gain an XP advantage for the abilities.

Do they need fixes. Yeah.

Should they be the uber solo path? Who knows.

[Fireclaw]

1. Bipeds gain all their equipment slots immediately. With a few levels, they can put tier 1 equipment in every slot. A dragon gains just one slot at level 1. It doesnt gain all its equipment slots till level 90. Even then, a dragon only has half as many slots as the biped.

2. "then again hoard adds to other things". Hoard gives us the following:
(a) Passive benefit: +4 armor per level, +1 firebreath damage per level.
(b) need 250k to begin RoP
(c) used as ammunition for our special attacks.

Overall, the main benefit from hoard at higher levels compared to bipeds is the armor bonus. The firebreath damage increase is worthless and being used as ammunition to fuel our attacks is not a benefit considering that bipeds can get stronger attacks for free.

[kengar]

Not 100% true.
Dragons gain the use of scales at level (same as bipeds armor).

As you put it, "Not 100% true."

A lvl 2 dragon has a maximum AR of 22 and one tech slot, assuming maxed hoard, because it can only wear one scale, which is also limited to a T1 scale. Oh, and that is only if the dragon wears an armor scale instead of one of the other types of scales, and armor scales can't take the armor tech. Wearing a Strength/Health/Dex/Power/Focus scale, the max AR drops to 16, assuming the scale is teched with Armor I.

A lvl 2 warrior has a MUCH higher maximum AR, even without jewelry or techs, and has 21 tech slots available instead of just one (assuming a 2h weapon, higher AR and 22 slots if using a shield). If a lvl 2 warrior were limited to only a chestguard, no other pieces of armor or jewelry, then it would be closer to the same, though now the dragon has the advantage due to inate armor and hoard-based armor.

Absolutley, but they only spend single biped class Xp to get to their levels.
a level 50/50 biped spent more then 2xlevel 50xp. Rating eats the Xp.
So dragons having one class gain an XP advantage for the abilities.

Do they need fixes. Yeah.

Should they be the uber solo path? Who knows.

I don't think they should be the uber solo path. Right now, they're the handicapped solo path, and a path that ends all too soon.

Also, most dragons that have biped alts know that leveling a biped solo is much faster than leveling a dragon solo, particularly at lower levels. This isn't comparing dragon grinding pre-merge to biped grinding post-merge, either. I started 3 bipeds about the same time as I started my dragon, back in Dec of 2003. It took considerably less time and effort to get the bipeds into their 30's than it did the dragon. My lvl 100 paladin with three other classes in the 60s (and at least 80% of those levels done solo) has about 60% the total time played as my lvl 100 dragon. So trying to hang your entire argument on XP earned is ignoring the fact that that same XP took more effort to get. Not to mention the fact that when you start working on your second class, you've got a rating about half that of your first class, stats commensurate of your first class, and those masterable abilities from the first half of the first class. Even with a rating over 50, my biped flew through the first 30 levels of every class he's picked up since getting his first 100 (still don't have a second 100).

I don't ask to have better armor than the best warrior. Having noticably more armor than a biped in teched padded ironsilk would be really nice, however. Let's see, the best dragon armor is T5 scales, at 50 AR per slot, 500 total, plus 396 for inate armor at lvl 100, 480 hoard armor, 70 for the hardened scales quest, and 45(?) for adulthood. Total armor=1491. Let's add 60 to that for 3 expedition crystals or original darkstaff crystal fragments (54 for the current small darkstaff crystals). 1551, and 27 available tech slots. Self buffed (can't remember the unbuffed stats for padded ironsilk), my main biped has more armor than that in teched padded ironsilk and teched mithril health jewelry, gets an additional 450 health, and still has 39 open tech slots for other bonuses. Once he gets teched mithril plate, he'll be over 2000 before buffs.

I don't ask to be able to nuke better than a mage. Now that we have Primal Range and Primal Damage techs available, I don't feel like a total gimp in casting, Still subpar, but no worse than most other non-multiclassed hybrid melee-casters.

I don't ask to be able to heal better than a cleric. Most of my issues with dragon healing could be resolved just by increasing the duration of our existing heal spells. Right now, any of the spell-based dragon heals takes so long to cast in combat that if you're fighting at your own level, you'll take more damage while casting the spell than the heal will heal. I never cast a dragon HoT spell while in combat because of this. I'll cast one right before I pull, but given the length of time it takes to cast dragon spells, the first 7 seconds of the 30 seconds worth of healing is gone before I start taking any damage. Barely worth it. Now, just bumping up the duration of the spell to 60 seconds would make it worth using without a doubt. I'm not asking for a 15 minute duration here, either.

I don't ask to be much better at dealing damage than I am now. As soon as Gold Rage/Ravage/Spiked Scales gets the fix currently on Blight, I expect I'll be right about where I should be. Breath of Fire could be more useful, but with just the melee boost, I'll be fairly happy with my melee damage output. On those occasions that I need to deal more damage than a weaker melee class, I can break out the hoard-driven attacks. Regardless of your opinion of Gold Rage, my dragon is also a lvl 100 crafter, and Gold Rage is expensive enough that I only use it when I'm in trouble. For example, when I pick up an add while fighting a mithril golem. With or without out "Refreshing Breeze" (on a 5 minute timer), I'm virtually dead after the second avalanche of ore, and even popping "Refreshing Breeze" and Gold Rage doesn't always kill the golems fast enough for me to survive. Even using both, I'm surprized on the rare occasion that I survive two adds instead of just one. My biped, even though he's not one of those that can round up the entire spawn and win, doesn't have this problem. Heck, he's tanked Mehdon more than once, and my dragon has never survived Mhedon's avalance of ore, even with Gold Shield up.

In fact, I think that's the reason that dragons aren't as effective in melee as bipeds. With lower typical armor ratings, lower Evasion skill, no block/dodge/parry, no Foresight, Dwarven Toughness, Forest Mist, Spirit Walk, etc, we don't avoid the damage nearly as well. Gold Shield is all we've got in that respect, and that is easily the most expensive of our hoard abilities. I've lost the equivelent of 20 minutes of grinding hoard in a single use of Gold Shield.

[evilkarl]

FFS Can't a thread exist without it degrading into a biped vs dragon thing?

This was a simple suggestion to add a burst heal to dragons and it got derailed into a dragon vs biped thread yet again.

[evilkarl]

I don't ask to have better armor than the best warrior. Having noticably more armor than a biped in teched padded ironsilk would be really nice, however. Let's see, the best dragon armor is T5 scales, at 50 AR per slot, 500 total, plus 396 for inate armor at lvl 100, 480 hoard armor, 70 for the hardened scales quest, and 45(?) for adulthood. Total armor=1491. Let's add 60 to that for 3 expedition crystals or original darkstaff crystal fragments (54 for the current small darkstaff crystals). 1551, and 27 available tech slots. Self buffed (can't remember the unbuffed stats for padded ironsilk), my main biped has more armor than that in teched padded ironsilk and teched mithril health jewelry, gets an additional 450 health, and still has 39 open tech slots for other bonuses. Once he gets teched mithril plate, he'll be over 2000 before buffs.

This is the only point i will adress in this derailment and simply to say BS. My biped with armour V teched padded ironsilk has a little over 1.1k armour with gift of armour V and enhance armour V its close or just over 1.2k. Thats with mithril Health jewel teched with armour V. Even Essence Leather with armour V and an armour V cape is <1200. Add Jewel and you get an extra 140, add buffs and its probably the same as a dragon.

In mithril plate yes the armour is higher as it should be we have solid plates of mithril incasing our person you have hardened flesh. Your scales are jewelery and nothing more.

I'm not saying dragons have enough armour I am disputing the BS claim that padded ironsilk provides more armour than a maxed out dragon can get.

[kengar]

I'm not saying dragons have enough armour I am disputing the BS claim that padded ironsilk provides more armour than a maxed out dragon can get.

Allow me to point out that I was as suprized as you apparently are. The fact that he was in druid form at the time probably helped. (skin of whatever+shield).

I'm not lying or exagerating, I don't remember the exact numbers, but it was in the 1500's, and that's with only armor 3 on the cloak and armor 4 on the jewelry.

[evilkarl]

Skin like Yew provides an additional +110 or armour a large mithril shield provides 170ish. So quite clearly cloth is not great unless combined with a shield and a class ability.

If the druid was using earthen crust V they would have an adiditonal 80 I think armour.

[padishar]

My druid's armor is 1961

[kengar]

Earthen crust IV (55 armor) and Skin like Maple (+100, so I suspect Skin like Yew would be +120, still working on Druid), I just doublechecked. He was using a medium cobalt shield instead of a large shield (mental quirk of mine, I tend not to use the large shield unless I'm playing a melee class, just doesn't look right).

AR 1569, and the shield was double-socketed, didn't have armor tech. The cape had Armor 3, the jewelry Armor 4, and it was a small darkstaff crystal in the shield for +18, not a full +20. So, all told, his AR could have been 1607, and even higher when he hits lvl 91 druid (+240 for T5 leather instead of cloth, +??? for fine mithril large shield).

Which is above the numbers given, and that assumes that you've got a maxed hoard, and most dragons are far from it.

As I said, I'm not asking for armor better than a warriors armor. I'd like to be closer to the warrior than the mage, and at this point, the best I can hope for is about 170 points + buffs, and still be 450 points behind the warrior. I'm also not trying to be confrontational or deceptive about this, either, I just think something's wrong when a primarily-casting class has more armor than a primarily-melee class. Almost understandable for Berserkers, but dragons? It just feels wrong.

[Fireclaw]

OK not to drag up the old debate once again, but dragons play a single class. So choose which you want:

1) Healing almost as good as a cleric
2) Armor and damage better than a Warrior
3) Greater damage/spell than a mage
4) All of these but all have drawbacks (like massive hoard drain, high skill to use etc)

These are mutually exclusive. You can't have them all. It would simply be stupid.

Heh you say its stupid to have them all. Well, bipeds can have them all or pretty close to it through multiclassing. Since dragons don't have the option to multiclass and have to go through much more effort to level their single class compared to a biped single class, dragons should be brought up to par with a multiclass biped.

The mobs are designed to face multiclassed players. Dragons need major boosts to be able to compete.

[evilkarl]

<self moderated to prevent further derailment even though mistruths will persist>

[Vesuvius]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Vesuvius wrote:

There are consessions. Dragons have to do quests and hoard in addition to normal leveling. If a dragon wants to be any good at primal, he/she has to spend training points in primal. The same applies to tooth and claw. So if a dragon wants to have hit points or stats from training points, they have to sacrifice either their primal or tooth and claw effectiveness. Dragons dont get all of their equipment slots at once, making their level progression that much more difficult (the last slot being at level 90). Dragons also dont get ANY bonus to adventuring from crafting at 100/100.
Not 100% true.
Dragons gain the use of scales at level (same as bipeds armor).
Now the stat bonus is nice for bipeds. Then again a biped needs to do 2-3 Classes to have the same abilities a dragon does with one. So differenet subject.

Also a biped has to spend TPs just as a dragon. A multi-classing biped has to spend XP that could be spent on their first class. So the problem again is the artificial level cap dragons suffer.

A biped that is multi-classed will have better stats because of multiple classes. IF a dragon could spend as many pts towards level as a biped, then the differnece would be smaller. Butbecause bipeds have unlimited (limited by the number of classes) ability to spend XP, they can gain the maximum stats without expenditure by spending XP in each of the classes.

If Dragons could continue to spend XP, they would find their stats, while advancing in a fixed area, could match a biped who multi-classed, because the Biped wastes points through rating loss.

Bipeds also get outright better equipment, even after you take into consideration the innate 4ac per level. In fact, you can combine it with max hoard too, and a dragon /might/ come close to a cloth wearer in armor.
Then again, horde (not for magic) adds to other things.


If TulgAE insists on forcing dragons to be a single class in a multiclassing game, then they ******** well better make that single class be able to survive in a multiclassing game. So far they have failed in doing this, most likely because it is near impossible to do. A strong hoard revamp would be a great start, but regardless, dragons need some kind of healing ability.
True, not going to argue this.
But again, it shouldn't be on par with a Healer. Or if it was, it should be on a longer timer then a healers.

If the breezes were changed to what I suggested, a dragon would have the healing ability of around the revitalize lines. Considering all of the other things they have to do in addition to progress that bipeds do not, it is not without its required effort.
I would love quests. As it is, it is only the grind.


In all fairness, dragons really should have higher AC than bipeds. Why? Because they do a hell of alot more work to get their armor up (at max hoard).

Dragons are not the same as a 'single biped class'.
Absolutley, but they only spend single biped class Xp to get to their levels.
a level 50/50 biped spent more then 2xlevel 50xp. Rating eats the Xp.
So dragons having one class gain an XP advantage for the abilities.

Do they need fixes. Yeah.

Should they be the uber solo path? Who knows.

Please dont post stupid things like dragons gain scales like bipeds gain armor. That isnt even remotely true. Bipeds start with all 21+ of their slots from level 0. Dragons get all 12 of theirs at level 90, starting with 3, getting 1 every 10 levels. Or 'hoard adds to other things'. Yeah, that meager bonus to breathweapon makes all the difference.(Isnt going to continue to correct your nonsensical post. Get the facts straight then come back).

To evilkarl: You really should include armor jewlery, not health jewlery when calculating that armor number if you are to stand by your statement that scales are jewlery. Regardless, its probably not going to make enough of a difference, I have about 1700ac selfbuffed with armor scales. Despite that, a maxed hoard isnt something to scoff at, the reward really should be equal to plate in ac at level 100 with all armorscales and buffs.

Anyway, back on topic with my original point.

I think its a good suggestion, dragons need healing. But, I feel it would be better to improve the breezes to be as effective as revitalizes, rather than just hand dragons another biped ability.

[Walter]

Despite that, a maxed hoard isnt something to scoff at, the reward really should be equal to plate in ac at level 100 with all armorscales and buffs.

You're saying you should get more armor than almost every other biped?