Unscribe spell/formula/technique

[Ferah]

Given that we have 100 spell form limit in the spell books and that I (and others) find this too restrictive (a healer/mage WILL hit this limit with out any effort at all for instance).

A simple solution would seem to be possible. Allow a spell/form/tech to be ?unscribed?. That is to say removed from spell/form/tech book and placed in inventory as a spell/form/tech. I.e. Just as it was before it was scribed in the first place. In essence visualize the spell/form/tech books as three ring binders that are easy to take a page (spell/form/tech) in and out.

I think this solution would be a viable ?fix? and would require minimal programming effort, I would think.


[&]

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Well, only spells have such a restrictive limit. Formulae and Techniques both have an individual limit of 750. Why they continue to refuse to increase the spell limit was said to have something to do with client space or some such, but we've been asking them for it since beta.

Players have also asked for this type of resolution (what you propose) as well since beta in light of the spellbook limit and again nothing has come of it. Maybe this time someone will do something? There's always hope I suppose.

I don't think anyone has managed to reach the Formulae/Technique limits yet so they're alright the way they are I think.

[Ferah]

Fwiw, I hit the formula limit yesterday while trying to scribe expert metal bar. I have ALOT of expert forms left to scribe.

My guildleader hit the form limit along time ago and nearly quit the game as a result.

I nearly quite the game along time ago when I hit the spellbook limit. It has been a thorn in my side ever since. Whatever their excuse is, I do not see it as good enough. (=

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

ACK! If people are hitting the formulae limit with Expert forms then having T6 be introduced as new formulae will be murder!! Then yes the Formulae limit should as well be increased. Maybe put Formulae up to 1k and Spells to 750. And heck, to CYA just make Techniques 1k too so they don't have to do it again later. lol

I don't want to stop being able to help the little guy whenever I can because I had to unscribe the formula. :(

[Jaraiden]

Search is your friend . . .

Anyway, on the spells, it has been discussed before (likely Tazoon). Essentially, why and how many more readily castable spells do you need besides 100? <-- Oh, a developer asked that question and he received few replies.

The easiest solution would be casting a spell that adjusts to the tier of the recipient - thus a Gift V spells imparts a Gift I effect on a level 1 to 20 character. Any techniqued effects would likely have to be nontransferable (as in which tier I tech effect does that character receive from a triple tier V teched buff?).

As for Formulas and likely Techniques, it is best to do the same . . . . provide a character need for more than 750 of them.

As was posted in related topics, there has to be some limit to knowledge to balance with character to character interaction and some semblence of an economy (where one character can't do it all or most of it). Say Armorer - well 4 metal bar formulas and 14 armor pieces (helm, face, chest, legs, boots, 2 shoulderpads, sleeves, 2 wrist, gloves, 3 shield) * 2 per tier. That should be about 144 or put at 150 formulas to tier V. Just guessing.

So, give the developers logic and justification for more than 100 scribed spells and more than 750 scribed formulas. Remember, it is unlimited multiclassing, but at some point the player needs to make intelligent choices and tradeoffs.

[evilkarl]

I just want to turn in form/tech space for more spell book space :)

[Ferah]

It is quite late and my mind is muddled and now my time is short so I shall be quite briefe (and not post the long post I?ve been working on the last multiple hours)

Your ideas are good Jaraiden.

TierV acting as a lower tier when cast on an appropriate level is a good way to reduce spellbook size. A LOT of room could be saved Techs would have to work though to be of value for heals/bolts and such like though.

A 100 healer can *easily* reach 100 spells. If aforementioned healer also has one other casting school there is a spellbook problem. This is a problem to the gods that be because it creates dissatisfaction in the game. By the by I?m pretty sure (no proof of course) that the 100 spell limit has driven a few newbies off. Hearsay though.

Is wanting to be able to bless from 1 to 100 asking to much ?
Is wanting to have the best heal for the job asking to much ?


I do not believe the crafter wanting to do it all is bad. HUGE time investment. Some think being self sufficient IS fun.

An some think having to drop "forms that we don?t use often" is NOT FUN.



fwiw.

[imported_tjl]

So, give the developers logic and justification for more than 100 scribed spells and more than 750 scribed formulas. Remember, it is unlimited multiclassing, but at some point the player needs to make intelligent choices and tradeoffs.

that has always been my take on it. sure i had to make some tough choices on what to keep and what to delete... but 100 is enough. at least it provides a slight drawback to multiclassing.

[imported_Ssilmath]

As was posted in related topics, there has to be some limit to knowledge to balance with character to character interaction and some semblence of an economy (where one character can't do it all or most of it). Say Armorer - well 4 metal bar formulas and 14 armor pieces (helm, face, chest, legs, boots, 2 shoulderpads, sleeves, 2 wrist, gloves, 3 shield) * 2 per tier. That should be about 144 or put at 150 formulas to tier V. Just guessing.

For metal armor only, outfitters are double this...

It is actually 54 per Tier, and hence162 forms total once you have reached tier V, 216 at tier VI

Pieces - Armguards, Belt, Boots, Bracer, Chestguard, Gauntlets, Greaves, Helm, Mask, Shoulders, Inv Helm, Inv Mask...

Types - Ring, Scale, Chain, Plate

Other - 3 Shields, 3 Fine Shields

[gusi]

I recently hit the form book limit aswell.. Funny thing is that I haven't scribed ANY spells or food formulae (I understand that there's well over 100 spell forms per rank or whatever you want to call it - Beg, Jman, Expert..). I'm also missing 100-200 Weapon/Tool/Armor/Jewelry/etc. forms throughout Beginner and Journeyman.

Plainly said, it's just not enough.

However, I disagree with the whole 'unscribe' idea. In essence, that'dmean we'd only need 1 of each form and tech per server (not really realistic though..).

I'd much rather having 2 spell/form/tech books. One active (100/750/750 limit respectively), and the other inactive (1000/7500/7500 limit respectively, or something ridiculously large like that). Then when one needs something from the inactive book, they simply 'trade' it with one that is in their active book.

[Vlisson]

crafter who hit their limit of formular/techs?

i dont have a problem with this because nobody should have all crafting classes in one char (only to max out their t4/t5 techs)

but the spell book is real limited, its a pain

but unscribe? would be unfair to the spellcrafter and wouldhit economy again

the spellbook is the only disadvantage of multiclassing, but it would be nice to see it bigger then now

[Ferah]

In my mind there are many disadvantages of multiclassing. The small spellbook is certainly one, but so are training points and adventure rating. However ?disadvantages of multiclassing? is not the topic at hand.

> ?... nobody should have all crafting classes in one char ...?
This is a matter of opinion, one of which I disagree.
The more (fun) effort I can put in to my character the longer I will be playing this game.


?unscribe? being unfair to spellcrafters is a valid thought though, one of which I had not considered. I would think an alternative/storage book would have the same effect. I?m not so sure ?unfair? is a good way to phrase it however. ?Fewer repeat customers? might be better.


> For metal armor only, outfitters are double this...
Would seem to be a bit more than double at 114 per tier, not counting resources nor social clothing.

13 pieces = invis helm, invis mask, arms, belt, boot, bracer, chest, gauntlet, greaves, helm, mask, sholderpad, skilts

8 types: ring, chain, scale, plate, cloth, padded, hide, leather

6 shields: 3 shields of 2 types (small/med/large * normal/fine)

4 containers: sack, satchel, pack and pouch.

114 per tier*. 342 for Beg/Jman/Expert

+9 social clothing (encompassing all tiers)

*Resouce formulas not counted.


Whatever the solution I think *something* needs to be done.

[kengar]

ACK! If people are hitting the formulae limit with Expert forms then having T6 be introduced as new formulae will be murder!!

Agreed. I was trying to get that point across back before master forms were introduced, saying that seperate T5 and T6 forms would be bad.

As for the "but then one crafter can do it all" argument, I don't see a problem with that. The current population can't sustain an economy, so any argument based on the economy is going to be weakened right off the bat.

[Vlisson]

> ?... nobody should have all crafting classes in one char ...?
This is a matter of opinion, one of which I disagree.
The more (fun) effort I can put in to my character the longer I will be playing this game.

hmm why do player play other games without multiclass? the problem of multiclassing it not the topic here

HZ boons all player who multiclass, there is no reason at all to be a single class crafter/adventurer

if you have to delete beginner forms to scribe master forms then the beginner market will be interesting for the low players again

[Guaran]

I like the active - inactive idea, especially for formulas and techs.

As a spellcrafter and scalecrafter, I currently have all spellforms, all scaleforms ( except most of the new blighted equipment forms) practically all stat, craft techs, some special event techs, and I'm worried that I got to be getting close to the 750 limit.

The main reasoning behind the limits from the beginning has been server-database performance. I know that when I click create-item, it takes a few seconds to open as it is, probably because I have so many forms scribed. For me to move some forms into "inactive" status, a secondary, less used database ( similiar to how house storage work, they are obviously a seperate database as they access slower, and function a bit differently than normal storage), would be a good solution for my own crafting database performance. Andif all users made use of moving rarely used forms into the "inactive" database, entire server performance could be improved. And this would allow the limit cap on forms to be removed. The "Active" forms limit could stay at 750 for performance reasons, or even be lowered. But the active and inactive forms totals could be allowed to have no maximum.

Same idea could be used for scribed spells, however I like the idea that a tiered augment spell would cast the level appropriate effect on the target player, hence removing the need to have Gift of Strength I, Gift of Strength II, Gift of Strength III, Gift of Strength IV, and Gift of Strenth V all taking valuable spellbook room, hotkey room, etc. ( OMG I need more hotkey room too)

Gifts, enhances, raises, surges, wards, resists, soul shield, flame/ice/energy attackwould all be good candidates for tier consolidation. Techable spells would be a nightmare to worry about, those I say leave as is. Combining the non-teched type spells would right there make a huge difference for just about all players, and alleviate the problems of insufficient spellbook room. Now, lets say Im a healer and I have scribed all the tiers of gift of strength, up to tier 4, then I change back to cleric, im level 20, and want to cast gift of strength. The spell would need to know to only cast tier 2 gift of strength, or tier 1 for lower level players. etc. Thats only kink in the idea that might get messy, when the spellowner level changes, the spell needs to know to adjust the output effect, and to upgrade again (automatically) as the user levels.

My 2 Dimensional Scepters of Radiance worth,

Guaran

[imported_Twelvebagger]

This topic was covered in detail at tazoon.com, but that does us little good here :)

FWIW, I do like that the 100 limit imposes some restrictions and makes the adventurer think about what he or she needs to delete, but it does create some restrictions.

The tiered augmentation spell idea is nice but poses problems with techs, and secondarily does little to help the multiclassed that need to have the lower tiers for when they switch classes.

Of all the ideas offered, I think allowing the unscribing of a spell to be a good idea, and perhaps they could implement spellbooks as a new item that can be created by spellcrafters (heck, maybe even allow teched spellbooks *grin*). The creation of "spare" spellbooks to store information would help to alleviate the loss of income from not having the multiclassed toon request the same lower tiered spells that he would need had he deleted them to begin with (i.e. instead of having to repurchase 15 lower tiered spells, the adventurer now has to pursue a spellcrafter to craft another book to allow him to store said spells)....

Just a thought...

-12-

[Vlisson]

As a spellcrafter and scalecrafter, I currently have all spellforms, all scaleforms ( except most of the new blighted equipment forms) practically all stat, craft techs, some special event techs, and I'm worried that I got to be getting close to the 750 limit.

hmm why do you think you will exeed the 750 limit? do you have all t1 & 2 techs scribed?

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

I really like gusi's idea about active/inactive knowledge books. I think you should propose it to TulgAE on the support site. :) I don't think it would be very hard to add in personally and the inactive list would be like the vault and need to be loaded seperately and not loaded on login (like Guaran was saying).

[Aquarius]

Limits aint fun please Tulga remove these limits!! or put some limit that will not be reached in a loong time, like 2500 as the limit..for both spellsand formulas/techs, then all the crafting people will rejoice, and all people thathas complained about spellbook since beta will rejoice, atleast the ones that are still here.

[I][I][I][I][I]
Or second thoughts, have different spellboks that you canget, then you can have one spellbook for mage, one for healer etc... just have a spellbook slot in the charactair window, then you can use the spells in your equiped spellbook... then there could be various teched spellbooks and things as loot or let the crafters make them.. but spells should then be free to move between your spellbooks otherwhise it would not be funny to get a new spellbook for one school and you already have most of them in your old spellbook.

Either solution would be [<:o)][<:o)][<:o)][<:o)][<:o)]

[Guaran]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Guaran wrote:
As a spellcrafter and scalecrafter, I currently have all spellforms, all scaleforms ( except most of the new blighted equipment forms) practically all stat, craft techs, some special event techs, and I'm worried that I got to be getting close to the 750 limit.



hmm why do you think you will exeed the 750 limit? do you have all t1 & 2 techs scribed?

Yes. Alot of t1 and t2's are scribed. Definately all t3 and up. Things like tier 1 velocity, and some tier 1 and tier 2 craft techs I have skipped for now. because i'm worried I'd just delete them anyway. but spelltechs I have 100% from tier 1 up. I'm curious how close to the limit I am...

After thinking about the tiered spells, it should be fairly simple to have the spell when cast check both the current adv level of both the caster and the target, and apply the highest available tier effect. I still think this is one of the better ideas :)

Guaran