Death to the Vielo! (and why it should happen.)

[Senkeleron Fell]

Well, it isn't really a REQUIREMENT because you don't have to HAVE fully teched tier V armor to play the game...

[kengar]

I believe the reliance upon the vielo has watered down the feel the game had at the start. Increasing the drop rate, and adding the currently not in game comps to the loot tables would help that.

That I agree with as necessary. Now what that has to do with removing Nadia, except that the removal can't happen prior to this happening, you haven't made clear, other than the fact that you think convenience is bad. "That which does not kill us makes us stronger." For the record, I had an easier time getting fully teched out gear pre-merge than post merge, because there was a comp market. That's what we need to focus on, not the fact that the Vielo are an expensive but convenient alternative to a non-existant market.

I would NOT have spent 2g with Nadia if there were a comp market, and I would have hunted more of the parts if it weren't for the fact that I can earn the money to buy the remaining comps faster than I could have hunted the comps that were actually available.

I agree with you on your main point. I'd like to get rid of the reliance on the Vielo as well. You support that part of your argument well. However, you don't support the part of the argument that claims that we actually need to get rid of the Vielo in order to eliminate the reliance. If we can establish a comp market, only fools will waste their money on Nadia without checking the market first. If we can't establish a comp market, then eliminating the Vielo, even if all comps are dropping, would be a bad thing, at least in my opinion. Not everyone can hunt every comp that they need. And yes, for any crafter that only gets 8 points in a skill that they need for their craft, techs are a need, not a desire.

I think that you missed one important point I made. Form prices have varied not according to what the vielo sold them for, but according to form and money availability. Why should comps be any different?

I agree with what others have said in that the Vielo serve an important function, placing a maximum price on things, especially in light of people thinking they can get 200s for ordinary crystals. I disagree that people are doing that because they feel they need the money to pay the Vielo. If that were the case, you'd still see Expert forms going for large sums of money.

Almost every crafter I know of is charging prices, comparable, or not too much higher than my own, and we're certainly not setting our prices according to what we need to pay the Vielo. However, all the crafters I know understand what economy Istaria does have, and the resonable prices of most items.

[daysleeper]

I do agree with the first posters views of the situation.

Since the nadia joined the ranks of the vielo, I saw a change in peoples playstyle. Instead of hunting for comps or buying em from a consigner, people now just buy em from nadia. And to afford that, they hunt easy mobs; fyakkis & tarantulas for easy exp & formsor grind even more then beforeto the PB. So nadia isnt all to blame for the situation.

Am I saying that hunting easy mobsis wrong, no! The game is designed in a way that "forces" you to do so. How else will you get all your techs/forms.

So why is there no comps atm at the conigners? Almost nobody bothers to hunt the mobs that drops the comps, and thefew comps they get, they need themselfs if they want the best armour/jewlery/cargo.

I see some posters that complain that they cant afford the comps & dont have time to hunt for em. It isnt supposed to to be easy to have the "best" equipment, and to have triple teched t5 equipment at lev 81 (or at any level). It isnt supposed to be possible at 81, atleast really hard without a strong guild in your back. But power to those that goes for it and manages it.

Thereare of coursea few comps that are hardto find even though we really try to hunt for em; the vexator fringers, wind golems "frags", zombie ogre toes + a few more. This is because they are rare and drop rarely like every mobs ig.

So is the vielo almost the only way to go for comps atm? If you are a crafter: yes. Hunter: not at all (only hellhound manes)Little bit of both: might be.

But how can all this be fixed:

- remove compsfrom nadia except for those not ig, and lower those prices to a reasonable level.
- Tweek up comp drop rate for all mobs
- Remove super spawns for easy mobs; forcing people to hunt other mobs for exp, thus gaining comps --->after a whilethey will be all over the consigners(prices dropping when supply "excedes" demand. Come to think about it, it will also slow some of the PL currently ig(harder to PL on Wa mobs and golems)This will also help dragons a little, because as we all know, they cant farm the easy mobs like a multiclassed biped can.
- Tweek up drop rate on forms/techs to compensate for the loss of easy mobs.
Or Put T4-T5 forms/techs on trainers when T6 hits the game. If not both options.
- put in expert/journeyman bounty markers & expert lore tokens to afford the trainer prices.

All these options will help theeconomy, it will go slow at first but with time it will work. We managed before without nadia and will do so again!!

[Guaran]

I pretty much agree with Guiness and kengar's points.

Removing nadia might create a comp market, but some would be even higher priced.

Frith, you need to find better ways to make money if you are still at 600s after 14 months. Nerfing the vielo prices? Umm, no. T5 teched stuff was supposed to be difficult to obtain. Techs themselves drop rarely. comps drop rarely. It's pretty much working the way it is supposed to, except that some mobs are not in game. In fact there's no zombie werewolfs even ( but luckily the human zombies behead the werewolf zombies, and we can get that skull when killing a zombie :) I hunted for most of the comps I needed, only items that drop that I purchased anyway were vet abomination chest skulls, blue vexator fringes, zombie ogre toes. Zombie ogres arent too common, neither are the abominations. And where the vexators are plentiful, you often pull 1 and instead get 3 on you ( 3 stacked on top each other, looks like just 1), and that can get hairy. So I expensively paid for convenience. Even still it took me about 2 months to finally get all the comps rounded up for all the crafter scales and fighting scales I needed. (granted as a dragon you pretty much "need" them, not simply want "the best". with out the best you can get, you simply have trouble managing in typical fights, etc.)

People who charge 200s for a lvl 60 tool crystal? Either idiots or greedy (taking advantage of newer players who don't know any better). I think some of them are people who see other high prices for the wd crystals and think they have a "rare" one also. Joke is on them because they paid a 10% fee to list it and that rock is falling right back into their vaults.

These same people would sell blue vexator fringes for 299s if nadia got deported.

It's a touchy situation for sure.

Send the vielo back to the eastern continent, or to an island who's teleporter is deep in the heart of the east blight, in the fortress, etc. Guarded by Gypsie Spirits, Reanimated Vielo, etc. That would take away a bit of the convenience :)

Guaran

[imported_Zayin]

I dont see how removing Vielo would help economy. Look at the formula market right after merge, expert forms were selling for at least 200s nowadays most go for 10s, and I see lots at the PB that people couldnt even sale.The Vielo serve a purpose and I dont think they have that big of impact on the economy, I mean no one is stopping anyonefrom selling their comps in MP for cheaper than Nadia but I hardly ever see that.

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

Removing the Vielo isn't the answer....

These days people are always suggesting TG remove something - how about we add the missing mobs or add their comp drops to other mobs BUT keep the Vielo in - then lets see how many will still pay the prices and how many will go hunt those mobs. IF a comp market can be self-sustaining THEN you can talk about removing the Vielo.

The Bestsolution to all the game's problems (beyond the technical) is to increase the Player Population. It won't be done by removing things - sorry guys - that's not an incentive.In the beginning,Pawn Brokers weren't really a problem; the economy wasn't completely "borked"; even the Vielo (when they first came) weren't really a problem....the simple fact is, the player population is too low - fix that and many things (not all) will right themselves.

I know people are trying to offer ideas withthe best of intentions (improving the game over all)- I appreciate and admire that. We all need to be offering ideas or pushing for Tulga to do something about the currentpopulations in HorizonsFIRST and then really really really think hard about removing anything from a game that is lacking so much in content (quests, events, dungeons, loot, storylines, lore).

This is just my opinion on things - I do look forward to reading every player idea and seeing daily (in game and out) players trying to make the game a better place to play.

Bulgrim StoneCleaver

[Ixalmaris]

People are already buying comps which are ingame instead of hunting them, so I don't think it will change anything when you simply add the missing components to the game. Farming money is easier than to farming comps, so why would people do it the hard way?

[Aamer Khan]

Actually I don't hate convience, just the change in playstyle that reliance on it has caused. I also am not intent on pressing a point or swaying anyone to "my" view. I am just giving a voice to some who have expressed their view, but were unable to say it here.

This game has always been a haven to the sensitive female players, to the players tired of PvP, to those that wanted to be a part of a bigger world without having to deal with the unpleasnt aspects of real life. To all those that really wanted to have an impact on their world. Many of our friends that helped us build the mines, feledan, or the rainbow bridge... are gone. Many of those that killed the satyr machines or hunted the event mobs... gone.

This is a game. It is supposed to be fun. But, when the grind become too long, players bail. When the expected abilities of your class fail to materialize, players bail. When, because of game mechanics, you are constanlty frustrated by being ineffective with your skills, players bail.

Such is the way of MMO's. And Horizons was not for everyone that's for sure.

I freely admit that I am no more sure of what the "fix" is than you are. I am sure that TG and the Dev's will look at their options, and do what they feel they can. Could be alot, may be nothing much at all. Many of the ideas in this thread, nicely modify my original concept to a more workable idea. That's great! If nothing else, it has voiced our views for TG to read, and thus know what we feel.

so to outline what I'm reading here...

Up the drop rate, up the spawn rate, leave the vielo but slash their prices, put in the mobs not ingame yet, put all T1-T5 forms and techs on the trainers, introduce T6 forms and techs.

( I'm betting most of this will eventually happen )

[AZVladimir]

I dont see how removing Vielo would help economy. Look at the formula market right after merge, expert forms were selling for at least 200s nowadays most go for 10s, and I see lots at the PB that people couldnt even sale.The Vielo serve a purpose and I dont think they have that big of impact on the economy, I mean no one is stopping anyonefrom selling their comps in MP for cheaper than Nadia but I hardly ever see that.

I agree with everything that is said here, the Vielo must go. However a lot of people like Zayin echo the same thing. 'How is the vielo hurting the economy when expert forms are going for 10s'. The reason that expert forms are 10s is there is a glut, there is a glut because people are farming for money and create a huge number of extra and unneeded forms. Go to the Pawn Broker in Aug and there is probably 50+ forms sitting there that people have dumped because they are worthless because there are hundreds on the market. The way to break the cycle is eliminate the Vielo.

One stipulation, comps should go but at least someformsshould stay.Maybe the more exotic or high level ones are drop only, but you have to have access to thebasicforms like Expert Metal Bar.


AZV

PS: The reason people don't sell comps in MP is becausethe vielo has ruined the market. It is easier to just farm for money than spend three days trying to find awind golem vapor in MP.

[imported_Zayin]

Well I know myself usually tries and hunts the comps for my tier V gear, but there is no way I am going to hunt low level mobs to get comps for my spells,gear when I change classes.It is very easy just to go to Nadia and pick up the comps needed without killing 100 level 40 mobs just to get a few comps.Now I dont know if that ruins the economy or not but as far as crafters that "farm" cash I think if they took the time to build a craft to make tier V items they should be rewarded with some nice coin.Now some people idea of fun is constantly hunting and killing mobs that is fine but also understand there is some that get just as much enjoyment from crafting.

[Ixalmaris]

Well I know myself usually tries and hunts the comps for my tier V gear, but there is no way I am going to hunt low level mobs to get comps for my spells,gear when I change classes.It is very easy just to go to Nadia and pick up the comps needed without killing 100 level 40 mobs just to get a few comps.

And you never asked a lvl 40 player if he sells you the comps he finds?
Especially dragons are very likely to sell comps to you as they have to hunt those mobs anyway for ability quests and can't use most techs anyway.

[Altair]

Unfortunatyly there are 2 sides to this Game Crafting and Hunting. And Almost everyone has the "I NEED IT NOW" metality.

Being the Latter I know how easy it is to get most of the comps and I also know how Hard it is to get others. There is no Market for Comps In marketplace. I've listed Comps asking for interest, And I get Ignored. Since most people Dont have the space to store comps that also Fuels the reason people want the vielo.

The second problem I see is that Even if I offered to go out and hunt down comps on contract I can't beat the Vielo on the "Timely" mannner in which they can provide Comps compaired to the time it would take me to Gather them.

In my opinion the Vielo have ruined this game. No one wants nothing unless it's "UBER TECHED" and they dont want to have to spend the time hunting down the mobs so they can get it. Much easier and faster to run a crafting school up to tier V and sell to the pawnie.

Is there and easy fix? Will just removing them change everything? In my opinion Yes. Will it upset most people and start the chants of Mutiny? More then likely. The biggest problem I see aroung here is the "I WANT IT NOW AND I WANT IT UBER" mentality. People complain that there is no new content, they complain that there is no this and is no that. So in a rush AE/TULGA throw out content/forms/techs.

And in doing so they create other problems. In example; We dont have this or we dont have that, or well we cant use this because its not in game. Peole power lvling because almost all the new content is geared to the 100+ rated Characters. And all these problems lead to others. Vielo introduce for the lack of comps. The list here can go on and on.

Something Else I would like to bring up since I've taken this long is the lack of community. After the merge this game has went from helping each other out and working togather to Well what have you or can you do for me. Im not saying there is a total lack of community. In fact as a player base in general the comunity here is strong, if small. But there are no Events like we are used to and the sence of community is slowly fading away.

So in closing I would like to say that yes I think the tech comps should be removed from the Vielo. I think it would help build our strength as a community. Yeah there will be those people that get mad and treaten to or do even quit. Yes there will be those That think things should sell for 50s just cause its hard to get. But there will always be the few of us that will go get it, as fast as we can and as cheap as is fair ( if not below cost ) and why? Because there are those of use that still think the game is fun. But with the current situation and "GRIND" metality, This game is going to get boring.

Altair Argannon
EoI

[Aamer Khan]

Yes, the situation that we are all in is very complex.

There are NO easy, simple fixes.

The current situation has evolved into what it is now, and to make 1 or 2 changes alone will NOT help. But, if the various idea in this thread were implemented in concert, then the effect would be positive, and not anywhere near as dire as some predict. To me ( and I know some of you disagree, but thats cool ) the comp market would be restored not inflated.

I would consider myself somewhat typical of the current playerbase. ( please dont harp on slight differences ) A mid to high lvl crafter/adventurer, able to farm some of my own comps. Been here since beta/release. Belong to a guild, or have friends I can hunt with from time to time. Rarely supply comps for any item I craft, and only craft when I want to.

Let ME predict what will happen, since everyone else feels what they believe will happen...

DATELINE: the near future...

( The Vielo are history. All comps are in game. 1 in 3 kills yields a comp drop. Resource forms are bought from the trainers, and almost no forms are drop only. )

My typical day starts by reviewing my pending orders for armor/tools/cargo. Checking my stock of comps, I realize I'm short of mighty ghost vapors, and kewllen energy nodes. I pop into MP and ask around. Many dragons have the comps I need and prices range from 2-3 silver each. I make my deals, and head out to the fields to gather a few remaining bars and bricks. While mining, I get offers to buy comps from passing adventurers. I also get armor upgrade requests. They tell me that they have TONS of these things, and since they don't like to craft maybe they could trade some comps for a new set of armor? "Sure!" I say, "what ya got?" Let's see... vet sternums x 6, zombie toes x12, and manes x8. Oh, and would you need 24 zombie werewolf skulls?

You guys DON'T what it to be like that?

I personally right now have well over 100 mith frags. Emerald golem chips are something I get quite easily. I personally can hunt and loot most of what I need and if they were in game, I could figure out the technique to aquire the rest, either solo or with some help from friends. I'm convinced that anyone can have anything they desire in HZ if they put forth the effort to get it. And you don't have to be greedy, aggressive, or in a hurry.

If the expert form market taught us nothing else, it taught us that player to player is where the money and fun is. Reliance on the vielo has robbed us of that part of the game. Removal of the Vielo would ( along with other changes ) put the "markets" back into our hands. Where it belongs

[Rammi]

This pretty much sums it up:

"The Bestsolution to all the game's problems (beyond the technical) is to increase the Player Population. It won't be done by removing things - sorry guys - that's not an incentive."

[Kulamata]

Aamer, that outcome would be great, and it would be very much as the game was in beta and the early days of release. And we enjoyed that, it was fun.

However, AE has had the theory that techs must be super-special and rare, and if they eliminated the Vielo, I fear that they would use the opportunity to ratchet down techs once again. Perhaps the new ownership would institute a new direction; I'd hate to push for change without some sort of assurance though.

I don't know if the policies were a more or less desperate attempt to stretch out the game's content, or if there is an ideological basis (a vision) that has become dominant among the remaining management. Remember that asking us for our favorite hunting spots resulted in a nerf series; and that the merge information neglected to mention the huge tech nerfing that took place at that time. That set of changes was partially rolled back, as was the requirement of 25 (!) crafting skill points/tech tier, so AE clearly understood how unpopular those moves were, but they continue to squeeze techs anyway.

If something should be special, and earned with difficulty, make it something new, instead of taking something away from the players to transform an existing feature. That has been terrible marketing, and I believe it is a strong part of why we are where we are today.

[Sunuke]

Vielo?

You mean those people where you go get all you need after grinding 2 day gems paying 2g just for tech resources for your new fully teched T5 armour?

To one point i can understand it. Some mobs i really hate to hunt and then i just pull the resources from the vielo. We also organise guild hunts for resource which are really fun if there are no farmers around.

I hope i don't have to explain you lot what i mean with farmers.

When i was doing my dragons RoP i needed silver golem frags and there was this friendly dragon that had 25 silver golem frags for 70s.
Nicely balance economy huh.
Luckily i could pull them from the vielo for 35s and some copper.

Now i hear some say why don't you hunt for them. Well sorry i was so excited that after such a long time my dragon was ready for RoP i wanted to go for it and i gave all my silver frags to other dragons in guild and some out of guild so i have more then enough of those silver golems.

There are several options we have:

- Kill Nadia

- Give Nadia Quests so that when you wanna have resources she first will send you thru Istaria and( you will end up in Hysteria.) after doing this quest you will get the resources, ofcourse for a discount.

- Leave Nadia alone and let her get richer then she already is

I would really like to see the second option.

[kengar]

You guys DON'T what it to be like that?

I'd love it to be like that. Removing the Vielo won't make it like that though. The other changes, making all parts drop and with a higher drop rate, that will make it happen, with or without the Vielo.

I'm all in favor of the changes discussed for creating a comp market, and THEN evaluating whether the Vielo can be removed. Remove the Vielo before a comp market is established, and you're betting on being able to establish the market. Kinda like jumping out of an airplane with a parachute that you designed yourself having only theoretical knowledge of how a parachute SHOULD work.

If the expert form market taught us nothing else, it taught us that player to player is where the money and fun is. Reliance on the vielo has robbed us of that part of the game. Removal of the Vielo would ( along with other changes ) put the "markets" back into our hands. Where it belongs

Exactly. The Vielo also sell formulas. Have they destroyed the formula market? No. Do people run out to the Vielo to buy formulas before checking the connies and asking around in marketplace? No. Even before the formulas started turning up on pawn brokers (I won't call this saturation, because I'm still missing several formula I'd pay above pawnie sell price for), the prices were at least reasonable. Make the right adjustments in players abilities to get component drops, and the comp market will establish itself, with or without the Vielo. Where am I wrong here?

As for the argument that it's easier to farm for cash than to hunt the comps yourself, how does getting rid of the Vielo change this? Because players are going to sell the comps for more? Possibly, but I'd rather think better of my fellow players until proven wrong. Increase the drop rate on the comps, and suddenly it isn't a choice between farming for money for 15 minutes or hunting for 30-??? minutes for the comp (I've gone 3 hours at the mithril golems without a frag drop, and I've had 5 in my first 10 minutes there). It becomes farming for money for 15 minutes to pay the Vielo, farming for money for 10 minutes to pay another player, or farming for 5-10 to get the comp yourself (all times here are SWAG, except the farming for cash to pay the Vielo, assuming a 25s comp). Now, if those are the options, who's going to use the Vielo? People with an urgent need and money that can't find what they need on the comp market. Maybe a few fools, but I suspect even they'll learn fast.

The Vielo aren't the problem. They're not causing a lack of a comp market. The lack of a comp market is caused by the fact that comp drops are rare enough that people would rather keep what they find than sell them, and the same amount of effort farms more cash than comps. Fix that, and the Vielo become a non-issue. If the devs want to keep comp drops rare so that teched items are rare, there will never be a comp market.

Explain how you think I'm wrong in thinking this. I dont' claim to know everything and am quite open to new ideas.

People buying comps that are in game doesn't prove that it will still happen if the drop rate on the comps is raised. If anything, the fact that there is a formula market argues against this.

Now someone in an example above stated that you can get 2g in a weekend hunting. Please tell how???

Kaze, sorry, I didn't see your question about how to earn 2G in a weekend until reviewing this thread. Simple. Go to the rift on Talandar (?). There's a fast spawn of lvl 40-60 mobs there, and the only one that doesn't drop coin is the named golem. My biped could farm that place for about 110s an hour last time I went there to grind coin. That's about 19 hours of hunting, which I consider to be a weekend (I play about 24-30 hours on weekends, but not all of that is hunting). He's just getting into T4 AoE spells now, so he can probably grind even faster. Even before he had any AoE spells, he could earn about half that, and one doesn't have to be an uberped to take advantage of it. In fact, almost half the farmers I see there are dragons, as I suspect the uberpeds have even better places to farm for cash.

I used to feel bad about the fact that I might be farming a spawn that a lower level player might want to use for leveling (I discovered that place while leveling healer, spiritist, and druid from lvl 30 to 65), but in all my time there, I've only seen two players with a rating below 100 besides myself. One was legitimately hunting, so I stopped farming for the night, and the other was standing behind an uberped getting powerleveled, AFK for all I could tell.

Well, that secret's out, I expect to see a lot more company out there next time I'm up there. Probably tonight, as I want to get a few more levels of mage before I go back to higher level mobs.

Also, Kaze, I'm pretty sure that veteran ghost vapours and veteran skeleton sternums are in game as droppable, so the fact that the Vielo also happen to sell them is beside the point. I do agree with you, and everyone, that ALL comp drops need to be in game. I don't like having to go to Nadia any more than anyone else does, I'm just glad to have the option to do so.

Also, I hope noone takes offense at my use of the term uberped. I don't mean it in a bad manner, it's just a recognizable term for the kinds of characters that can round up an entire spawn then kill them all. My biped isn't there yet, and I'm not sure I have the attitude/skill to ever really be one, but I'm working on it.

Oh, and for those that don't recognize it, SWAG as used above stands for scientific wild-*ss guess.

[daysleeper]

Exactly. The Vielo also sell formulas. Have they destroyed the formula market? No. Do people run out to the Vielo to buy formulas before checking the connies and asking around in marketplace? No. Even before the formulas started turning up on pawn brokers (I won't call this saturation, because I'm still missing several formula I'd pay above pawnie sell price for), the prices were at least reasonable. Make the right adjustments in players abilities to get component drops, and the comp market will establish itself, with or without the Vielo. Where am I wrong here?

Of cource the vielo selling formulas hasnt destroyed the form market. This is because forms drop like flies from the easy mobs; fyakkies, tarantulas & grey nec.
And these are the mobs being hunted by 90% of the population ----> massive overflow of forms & massive "underflow" of comps

It is these super spawns of easy mobsthat is the biggest evil IG atm. Both for the economy+ its the biggest reason forthe current PL!!

What would happen if they where removed? No more easy exp &more hunting the rest of the mobs ----> morecomps circulating amongst players ----> more comps on the connies.

I still think that Nadia should be removed from the game, but perhaps not until the market on comps starts toget better. And Keep the prices at nadia the same.

This BIG step + the the steps I posted in an earlier post would be healthy for the community. Putting the market back to the players hand, like the original poster stated.

Am I totaly wrong in this point of view?

-daysleeper-

[Aamer Khan]

Kengar the difference between the forms market and comp market is that ALL forms drop ingame and lower tiers are on the trianers anyway. Not so for all comps, so your analogy seems to be missing something. Remember that cultures develop over time. What is HZ's culture now and is it good for HZ's future?

What the Vielo have done, is create an artificial need to rely on them. But, thats not what the original post was about really. It's more about the effects on playstyles and overall game feel.

Lets forget all about "economy" for a second. Most of the players I interact with ( and there are alot ) are much more interested in having fun, helping out, or contributing to the fun of others, than to how much money they made today. A big part of what got many to stay here was the "feel" this game had. Working a construction crew to put sheets on the mine shafts was a grand time for all. We made new friends, we saw good for our efforts, and it pulled us all together. When the saris ghost golem keepers would wander down ... we ALL jumped them and went back to helping out. Concerns of KS'ing, or what loot it dropped was not there. We all gladly ported time after time without regard to cost, just to see the mines built.
Some will say this is just the warm and fuzzy thinking of a fanboi, but tell me that those things didn't make you enjoy this game more?

In those days, we might have gotten upset about someone attempting to take over the market, and "teach them a lesson" by just underselling them. Things would settle and we would all move on. Was still lots of fun. And it was in our hands to control what happened. Now, its all about how powerful do I need to be to farm X number of Y mobs for Z amount of money to buy those blue vex fringes and hellhound manes. With AE stepping in to provide comps not in game so we could have our t5 teched gear, it was takin out of our hands, and out of our control.

I'm just saying we somehow need to return back to those days, get something to pull us together, and removing the vielo would be a good kick in the pants. If you dont agree thats fine. It does not make you right or wrong. Just means you view it differently from your experience. WE don't have to agree. Only what the Dev's do next, makes any real difference. This entire thread is good from that perspective... because it helps them see what we feel. ( even if we all don't agree )

[PJ]

Remember that asking us for our favorite hunting spots resulted in a nerf series; and that the merge information neglected to mention the huge tech nerfing that took place at that time.

Just for the hell of it I dug up the infamous thread (gotta love a thread that essentially asks "How can we best nerf you?")in question:

http://vnboards.ign.com/Horizons_Gen.../64268833/?134

In my opinion the game still suffers from this change, and the motivations behind it.

Prior to this, the economy worked the best imo. And it wasn't just that there were more players. Horizons was never about the uber loot, but at least it was possible to make a living as an adventurer. You looted forms, techs, and sold them to crafters. You looted comps for yourself, and had excess to sell to crafters. I know I bought all of my jman alchemy forms from adventurers and was pleased to do so. Tech comps were a commodity, people were willing to buy, sell, trade all the time. Anybody remember the timewhenyou didn't need comps to get say a steel mining pickwith mining IIIand quarrying III made?

Now comps are treated more like treasure, hoarded, and usually sold only when the profit is great or your personal supply is large. Occasionally you'll trade some, but only if you can get exactly what you need. I treat my Blue vexator fringes like i treat my extra shoulder cow. They aren't for sale but i'll trade them to ya if you have the one thing I need: Zombie Ogre Toes (or Shoulder Parrot in the cow analogy [;)])

In my opinion the drop rates on comps should be raised across the boards. And then another increase specifically for the harder to kill mobs (Vexator, Zombie Ogres, Wind Golems, Abominations, Kwellen, WA class mobs, Aergor, bloodsnouts to list some t5's)

Do you, TG, want to make techs rare? Tough cookies. Its too late. It was too late back in the day to nerf common techage, and when AE did they paid a price. No matter how hard it is to get comps, teching will be common practice. Its the best form of item customization we have. We have armor dyes, and limited weapon tricking but those are a far cry from the "literally millions of combinations." Techs are our defacto customization now.

Additionally teching is necessary, you've admitted as much. http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=11415

Unlike player schools, which gain the same amount every level, monsters schools increase their skills in an accelerated manner as they get higher in level. This helps compensate for things they don't have, like techniques, training points, gifts/buffs (beyond what they cast on themselves) and potions.

You balanced mobs based on techniques, but made technique compsfor players nigh on impossible to get. Sure I have no problem getting my comps, but then I'm not a new player. I've got numerous 100 adventure schools. For low level players and new players getting the comps for your armor when you can use the armor is extremely difficult. These are the players you're trying to attract into the game...not chase away.

Sure, yes, you're the designers you have all license tomove the game in whatever direction you wish. Even if its straight into the ground. But players have the power to shape the game too, through our actions. If we desire plentiful teching, as long as their comps are dropped or sold, we'll have them one way or another.