Death to the Vielo! (and why it should happen.)

[kengar]

Am I totaly wrong in this point of view?

I don't think so. Like I said, I think getting all the comps in game and tweaking the drop rate will create the comp market that we ALL want. I don't think there's anyone that doesn't at least want all the comps dropping, and most of us want the drop rate increased enough that there's a comp market.

The argument seems to be over whether getting everything droppable at a reasonable rate will create the comp market, or whether Nadia's removal is also necessary, or in some peoples view, Nadia is a bad thing if we do have a comp market established, even if she doesn't prevent that comp market from existing.

I don't think the removal is necessary, for exactly the reason you gave. We have a formula market, despite the existence of the Vielo selling forms, precicely because there's enough formulas being looted to sustain the market. I happen to agree with you that certain mobs need to be more powerful, since they seem to attract all the attention from the farmers and the power levelers, and that may also be a factor in the lack of a comp market, as certain comps which are in game drop from mobs that aren't hunted much, for whatever reason. But again, that's a problem that needs to be addressed in order to establish a comp market, reguardless if Nadia exists or not.

Many people have stated preferences for or against Nadia's removal. However, just about every argument put forth so far in favor of Nadia's removal has had nothing to do with her, but on the lack of a comp market. Not one person has put forth a single line of reasoning explaining why people would still go to Nadia for everything if we can get enough drops to sustain a market in tech components, or why Nadia's existence would prevent a comp market from existing if we had the drops to sustain it, other than the argument that we don't have a comp market now.

To which I again respond, we don't have the conditions to sustain a comp market now, that's why we don't have one. The formula market shows that it can happen despite competition from the Vielo. Noone has countered that argument, they've just gone off on tangents about it. We just need the right conditions, and I don't think that the lack of Nadia is one of these conditions. I don't think her existence is required for the market either. Other than price controls and instant gratification for those times that something isn't readily available in the comp market, Nadia isn't a factor in this if we can get the conditions we need.

I suspect the heart of the issue is that the devs want to keep teched items rare, but the players want the best stuff they can get. I'm not sure how to fix this in a way that makes everyone, or even anyone, completely happy. So, tech component drops are made rare, there's not enough supply to sustain a market in them, so we need Nadia. This situation doesn't make me happy. Drop too many comps, and there's no market because everyone will know someone with more of that comp than they know what to do it, everyone has teched equipment, and the devs aren't happy. I hope that somewhere in between, there's a point where everyone is happy, and I honestly don't think Nadia is a major factor in that.

[Guinness]

I have to completely agree with kengar,the above postseems to best capture the essense of where the problem lies.

When I mulled this over in my mind I thought back to what I see on the MP channel in chaos. You're regularly see people asking for comps - some for days on end (I was one of those people). However, if you do see anyone selling, the comps are bought almost instantly (by me if I am lucky[:D]). I also check the online consigner list for comps as well - you'll see very few being sold (inT5)- but all of them sell quickly, some even at awful prices. The problem is that they are too rare and there aren't enough people supplying them - not that there aren't enough people willing to buy em. This hints to me that the Vielo aren't the problem.

Way back in the day, when the drop rate on golem frags got nerfed, most of the adventurers I knew claimed the drop rate was close to 1 in 20. This seems to be a bit better now (probably due to getting 2-3 comps at once at times) and I would guess it is between 1 in 10 and 1 in15 myself. Upping it to 1 in 3 as Aamer states would be a huge increase over what it is now. Based on past history, I simply do not feel TG would make it that high as others have already pointed out. I wouldn't mind seeing your vision at all, Aamer, I just don't feel it's going to happen.

Personal Justice has the correct idea, you need an increase across the board for all comps - then you need a second increase for the harder to obtain ones. Only then can you talk about removing the vielo.

[Uther Blade]

Does this mean my next alt toon can't be a Vielo?[:'(]

First, the problem with the economy has been an issue since before the merger, and will continue to be an issue even after the Vielo leave.... Why? Cause people will pay for things they have lived without upto the point of finding it and pay the price posted... ie.. journeyman spell forms, I consider it greedy to ask more than5 silver for a spell form, but as long as I have played... folks have put forms on the consigners for too much. And auction channel?... I have seen tech forms go for over a gold 2 weeks ago... I have waited and got in drops orhave seen soldfor 1/5 the price it went for 2 weeks ago. I know supply and demand, but that greed is a two way street, first to sell, second to be the first to get it.[:|]

Second, the Vielo are not there for convienence, they want us to cooperate and work together. That is why the prices are soo high. Order is sooo saturated with Expert forms, that folks are just dumping them on the pawn brokers, tech forms are next. You increase the drop rate, you will increase the camp rate.[:O]

Third, how much coin do you make collectivly from your armor/weapon crafting? Why should the game provide all things in a resonable manor, when you make profit from it? Most of us at one point have complained the game is too easy, only to cry fowl when they 'fix' it.[:'(]

We have all weathered the past storms... this will blow over to. [;)]

This is a good debate tho, hope it keeps going. [:D]

[Phillip]

yo people,

until the devs figure put that the best feature of this game is also its #1 omen, and try to fix that, we'll have this economy forever.

forever.

[daysleeper]

Many people have stated preferences for or against Nadia's removal. However, just about every argument put forth so far in favor of Nadia's removal has had nothing to do with her, but on the lack of a comp market. Not one person has put forth a single line of reasoning explaining why people would still go to Nadia for everything if we can get enough drops to sustain a market in tech components, or why Nadia's existence would prevent a comp market from existing if we had the drops to sustain it, other than the argument that we don't have a comp market now.

Ok, here is an insident thatwilloccur.A high level Adventurer/crafter with tons of cash wants to get himselfa new class to 100. Of course he wantsall of his gearteched. He has4 options to get himself the comps(not counting guild storage)
Senario includes nadia, a farly good comp market, and a small increase in comp drops, we do not have a working world marketsearch yet(atleast not on unity),

1: Hunt for em himself. Might take him2-3 hours.Total price: free
2: Buy em at the local market. Well he might get half of em at kion conigner, total price 100s(for em all)
3: He can use MP, might take 20-30 mins to get em all. total price 100s.
4: Nadia. She is cheap on low level stuff(compared to the amount of cash he is carrying around) She's got a drive in & and a TarbashBag of Unlimited Comps back there.thus it will take him4 minutes to get him the comps, the4 minutes includes port time & running, total price of comps 200s.

What would you choose?He willchoseoption 4 in most circumstances. Well he might do option 2 first, ifhe was allready in Kion.

So why is nadia bad, she screws low level people.(not that there are many left, but that is an other discution)Unables em to sell as much comps as they could without nadia IG.

To which I again respond, we don't have the conditions to sustain a comp market now, that's why we don't have one.

True

-daysleeper-

[daysleeper]

The formula market shows that it can happen despite competition from the Vielo. Noone has countered that argument, they've just gone off on tangents about it.

Those two markets arent really good comperance material with the current mob layout. As I said before, everybody gets forms from farming(big surplus)& few goes out and hunts for comps(big deficit). So to get the same market situation everybody has to almost stop farming forms and start farming comps, which has a probability of 0% ever happening with the current mob setup.

An other reason these 2 cant be used in thiscomparison is the amout of money thing cost in both markets. The difference in price range is colossal.
T5 comp:
Market: 5-20s
Nadia:25-35s, ok im not there often to check the prices
Form:
market: 5-70s(rarely see those prices anymore)
Vielo: 250-900s

[Phillip]

when the Vielo was introduced, i thought it was a really bad idea. a player run economy with NPCs to influence the price andlucrative comps? i thought having the PB was bad enough but, when stated so people blasted me for it.

anchors, blighted equipment,thought it was bad too. i mean c'mon, we don't need a genius to know that stuff isn't going to bring people into this game or make it better. i stated itso and got blasted.

it's the majority of the population and the inability to see what's good and what's not, and failure take the hardline that's why we're in this predicament.

[Dragonboy]

Something like this has been stated before in this thread, but it is true...
The Vielo make sure that there is a price cap on ALL forms & components and personaly I think that as long as cash is scarce for me atleast...
The most expensive component is I think around 40s...
But I dont even wanna guess what it is going to be IF vielo is removed, maybe around 200s a piece? or 300s a piece? or knowing the greed of many ppl maybe even more...

Normally speaking these components are in essence body parts from the specific mob...
So normally speaking each mob you kill holds that component in its body and thus should be harvestable...

Drasticly decrease formula and techniquedrops and limit the dropsonly to WA mobsto "increase" the assault against WA mobs and massively increase component drops, 1 component for 5 mobs or even 1 component for each mob killed...
And maybe increase amount of tech components needed to complete crafting, maybe make the Satyr islands Tier related and force ppl to collect some ore or slabs there to be able to complete the crafting...

[Phillip]

"But I dont even wanna guess what it is going to be IF vielo is removed, maybe around 200s a piece? or 300s a piece? or knowing the greed of many ppl maybe even more..."

the price can only range from the amount of money people have in the economy. if prices were that high, 99% of the people will not be able to buy a set of comps for a suit of armor or jewelry. it doesn't make sense. the basis here is to properly place component drops and let the market work for itself, not influenced by NPCs.

speaking on greed i could easily remember the days when on the Spirit shard, there were a handful of high level crafters with monopolies running rampant, charging extremely high for goods & services, and that they will make stuff for you if they like you. the one-way economy served the purpose of stripping the playerbase.

[Tarod_Chaos]

One example is folks selling Dark Jade Tool Crystals from 60s-200s. Now if I were going to be cynical, I would just conclude these players are greedy and leave it at that. But not only is that probably wrong, it's way to simple. Most likely, they need to charge these prices because they feel like they have to buy all the comps for their next set of ( whatever ) from nadia. To offset having to pay this price for a +30 health crystal, the crafter will now hike up his price. This of course cascades across the shard. What appears as greed, is really an artifically induced need to have a small fortune, to buy comps from nadia.

My friend talked to one of the people selling those tool/adventure crystals and asked him why the heck so high since you USED to be able to buy them for 1-3 S a piece. (for lvl 20-60s) and the guy told him oh those aren't dropped any more which is a lie as those are dropped in the dead pool, ruined observatory and various other places in game. When told that they guy laughed then told him shush do not tell anyone. He is selling those purposefully to drive up prices and make a huge profit at the expense of lower lvl crafters like myself who can NOT afford 65 S for a tool crystal. It is nothing but pure sickening greed when people care more about making a ton of money then about the community around them.
The crystal thing makes me sick as do the prices on some techs. I saw a tech II for *12* silver. Wtf?? And I see V's for 300-600. And I know people are getting alot of those on Alged and T-V nameds. It is nothing but pure greed in HZ lately and it makes me sick and I am getting tired of it.
I refuse to pay those prices. I can not afford them and I wish some people would have a little consideration for other players and quit thinking of thier obssession to have as much gold as possible.

[Aamer Khan]

I will say this...

To what end a huge amount of gold?

There are people in RL that will do whatever is necessary to amass as much cash as they can.
To them, ethics, consideration, and reputation mean very little compared to the glowy feeling all that money gives them. It should be expected to see it more so in a game where your anonymous anyway. ( no real punishment for not having scruples )

I too am tired of it. Some will get miffed if you offer them less than THEY think an item is worth, and at the same time moan if you don't give away what you are selling. Selfserving at the very least.

I started this thread giving folks the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps I was too quick. Perhaps part of the problem I'm sad over IS greed.

[Tarod_Chaos]

I will say this...

To what end a huge amount of gold?

There are people in RL that will do whatever is necessary to amass as much cash as they can.
To them, ethics, consideration, and reputation mean very little compared to the glowy feeling all that money gives them. It should be expected to see it more so in a game where your anonymous anyway. ( no real punishment for not having scruples )

I too am tired of it. Some will get miffed if you offer them less than THEY think an item is worth, and at the same time moan if you don't give away what you are selling. Selfserving at the very least.

I started this thread giving folks the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps I was too quick. Perhaps part of the problem I'm sad over IS greed.

Well said and so unhappily true both in society and in games. It seems to be a prevailing onslaught of discompassionate self servingindividuals wandering this planet. Makes a person wonder what the human race will be like in 50 years. :(

[Seikojin]

:o

Unfortunatly greed is the problem... I guarantee that there are some who arent greedy. I know my gnome crafter isnt.

[Claws]

Just a few observations by a long-time hunter/trophyseller.
I am around since Dec 6th 2003 and I don't do crafting really. I got a craft class at level 100- true, but after 15 month of continuous playing that does not mean a lot.
I used to make money on selling and reselling monster drops from the very beginning.
At times I had several people hunt for me, I'd buy their load of trophies and resell them at about 100% premium. (that is 2-3s per granit golem frag at that time, still I was flamed for overpricing, but never was i able to fill all orders)
...ah, the good ole' times...
Well then t4-t5 hit the game and as we all know things changed.
Most of my hunters had left game a long time ago. First of all people were looking after themselves naturally and so no one sold the "new" comps at first.
But since T5 was mostly golems people started selling again eventually. Then came the undead T5 and the vielo. Undead are a tough bunch...
Killing fyakkies and spiders is like killing most other non-casting mobs -> easy.
Undead however have lots of specials or they cast nasty stuff.
Still they are plenty and not the real problem, while I didn't sell any I found enough for myself and some guildies.
The real problem are rare in-game mobs that drop comps evervbody needs a lot of.
Take for example zombie ogre toes and blue vexator fringes - two of each needed for health V among other techs. I really tried to get all I needed without begging the vielo for help.
In about 4 weeks (I wrote a diary on our website) I managed to grab 7 fringes and 2(!) toes. Of course I found other stuff too - like red fringes, chest skulls and pus packets, about 350k in hoard items and lots of DPs.
I didn't intend to get lots of health teched items but still I needed 14 each not counting my alts.
I am not a 24/7 player and my rating is 112, but I do not think that it makes a difference whether my rating is 200 or 112. Wandering on a satyr island for hours you have a chance to encounter a few vexators but almost no ogres, so there is no mass-killing them.
Summary: A pure adventurer got about a third of his needed throphies for a single tech in a month playing a few hours almost every day.
Question: What should I charge for such a trophy, if I ever have enough to sell some? (If the price should reflect the necessary time invested at all it would have to be way above what the vielo ask.)

[Guaran]

Tarod_chaos wrote: [img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Aamer Khan wrote: I will say this...

To what end a huge amount of gold?

There are people in RL that will do whatever is necessary to amass as much cash as they can.
To them, ethics, consideration, and reputation mean very little compared to the glowy feeling all that money gives them. It should be expected to see it more so in a game where your anonymous anyway. ( no real punishment for not having scruples )

I too am tired of it. Some will get miffed if you offer them less than THEY think an item is worth, and at the same time moan if you don't give away what you are selling. Selfserving at the very least.

I started this thread giving folks the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps I was too quick. Perhaps part of the problem I'm sad over IS greed.


Well said and so unhappily true both in society and in games. It seems to be a prevailing onslaught of discompassionate self servingindividuals wandering this planet. Makes a person wonder what the human race will be like in 50 years. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-6.gif[/img]

Don't let 2 or 3 greedy slobs depress your view of the rest of us.

Whatever % it is, it's a fairly low percentage of the population. Most people aren't like that.

Guaran

[Aamer Khan]

If it was just 2 or 3 it would be easy. But it really is more systemic than that.

The overall maliase, is becoming more concrete. Folks are only reacting to the situation presented. If bitterness sets in, players strike out at others, or draw back to themselves.

Folks lack a sense of purpose. Purpose is what captured our hearts and imaginations at the start. It is what we need to reclaim our interest now.

It seems to affect each player differently, but it does seem to affect us all.

[Guaran]

Agreed. Common goals helped forge the community so long ago.

It would be nice if the Arop launch could do the same thing, players helping each other. Not sure that can happen, since I understand parts will have to be done without assistance from others.

Guaran

[kengar]

Those two markets arent really good comperance material with the current mob layout. As I said before, everybody gets forms from farming(big surplus)& few goes out and hunts for comps(big deficit). So to get the same market situation everybody has to almost stop farming forms and start farming comps, which has a probability of 0% ever happening with the current mob setup.

This is a valid point, one that has been touched on. The problem is that certain mobs are easier, and when this is combined with a dense, fast spawn, people gravitate towards hunting just those mobs. Getting all the mobs in game and evenning up the difficulty of the mobs is something that has to happen, with or without Nadia, and for more reasons than just establishing a tech comp market.

An other reason these 2 cant be used in this comparison is the amount of money thing cost on both markets. The difference in price range is colossal.

Not so valid. For the longest time when expert formula first started dropping, the prices were considerably higher than they are now, and we still had a formula market. It wasn't until more people got into farming Elnath that the supply of forms drove the prices as low as they are now.

If the drop rate of T4/T5 tech comps is increased, the supply increases, which means the prices of those comps will likely go down, resulting in a larger differential. As is, for T3 tech comps, the going price in Marketplace on Chaos for those that drop readily is already about 1s each, which is significantly below Nadia's prices.

1: Hunt for em himself. Might take him2-3 hours.Total price: free
2: Buy em at the local market. Well he might get half of em at kion conigner, total price 100s(for em all)
3: He can use MP, might take 20-30 mins to get em all. total price 100s.
4: Nadia. She is cheap on low level stuff(compared to the amount of cash he is carrying around) She's got a drive in & and a TarbashBag of Unlimited Comps back there.thus it will take him4 minutes to get him the comps, the4 minutes includes port time & running, total price of comps 200s.

I think we're looking at different markets. 200s for a full suit of teched armor gets you double-teched T3/T4 armor with T3 techs, and if that's the case, the MP price (on Chaos, at least) is going to be a quarter or less the Vielo price. I can't speak for people that have been farming Elnath for forms/techs and selling them for the last month or two, but I will certainly take the half an hour if it saves me 150s. That's over an hour worth of grinding for coin at the rift.

If on the other hand, you're looking at triple-T5 teched T5 armor, you're looking at a lot more than 200s for a full suit, more on the order of 4G, and even if half of that has to come from the Vielo due to non-drops and the rest of it is only 25% less than the Vielo price, you're still talking 500s for half an hour of contacting people in MP. There may be people that value their time at a rate higher than 1G an hour, but I certainly don't know any of them.

For that matter, if someone wants to get some tech comps and he knows about it in advance, he can hire someone to round up the comps, and split the difference on the amount of money saved compared to going to Nadia. I know many people that would be willing to spend half an hour to get a piece of that 500s, and make a living out of it. However, by getting rid of Nadia, all you're really doing is getting rid of the quickest, most expensive option and eliminating the price-cap effect that NPC availability creates.

However, this all requires conditions that would at least make it possible to have a tech comp market.

Case in point. This weekend, one of my guildies wanted some T5-teched items. Several people spent time scouring their vault, alts, and various storage to find the comps needed. Given the amount of time we spent cumulatively, we would have been farther ahead all spending that same amount of time farming for cash and then heading for the Vielo, but we didn't. Going to the Vielo is not a choice we want to make. Sure, there are some that do, but I don't think we've ever had everyone participating in the economy anyway.

Aamer, I agree with you more than you think I do. I miss the community we had before the population dropped as low as it did. Removing the Vielo is something we disagree on, and that's fine, I do think the benefits of keeping/removing Nadia is a matter of opinion. As long as we have an established tech comp market for all comps, removing her won't be a disaster, though I'd argue that it wouldn't be a benefit either. I'd like her to stay around, but I'll be far more willing to discuss the removal once we have a tech comp market going, or at least developing. I enjoy interacting with people, and I like the relationships that develop in various markets.

[LaughingOtter]

Common goals & common gain set the foundation for the community, but right now there is little of that spirit left. ARoP, although needed and desired, is not a community event.

The best way to be rid of the Vielo would be to remove the need for them. Assuming the comp drop rate and missing creatures are addressed, a community event such as reclaiming Old Rachival and rebuilding the Great Library of Wisdom & Wonders (hint...) could revitalize the community spirit and serve as a new source for expert & master forms obtained on the token system, quests for T4-6 techs, and so on. Once the event is concluded - a space of weeks if not months - the Vielo would no longer be needed in their present form.

[Aamer Khan]

I appreciate your last posts Kengar And LaughingOtter.

Because of the common idea that we need a comp market before any real change can happen...

I am starting a comp market channel tonight to see if we can indeed create a viable market.
I feel the need to seperate the comp selling, from general market place, due to the auctions and general chatter drowning out the serious offers for comps. Plus, I want this to be a player run channel with very few admins, and a modicum of order.

Some of us ( like myself ) have no problem getting comps like Emerald Golem Chips, or Mithril Frags. Others always have ones like Kwellen Energy Nodes, Grey Necro Wings, or Vet Ghost Vapors.

I know what my prices are for comps. You may have a different view. Eventually, it will all sort itself out, but in the mean time, please list what comps you have available and your terms. Think of it as a live version of the ads in a newspaper. No need for auctions, just simple straight forward quantities and prices.