You want to see new players here right?

[Aamer Khan]

What can we do to help that situation?

Lately, many keep saying that they hope TG starts pumping money into advertizing. It seems that many believe that the solution rests solely in TG hands.

This is NOT the case.

We are directly involved too. What we say in MP, on the boards, in IRC contribute considerably more to the impression of the game than any ad on a game site could.

If we really want to help, why not talk up the good aspects of the game. What we find fun.
I'm not saying we need to become blind fanboi's, just think about what effect our words will have on new players.

Case in point.

Had a new player on Chaos send me a tell and ask a few questions. His comments were that "everyone" said this game had lot's of problems. He could not find where anything was and nobody seemed to want to help. They were, "all too busy to want to bother". He had tried to ask some questions in marketplace, but gotten discouraged by the lack of response. He really didn't want much... just a bit of direction, and a point in the right direction. He said he really wanted to get involved in building the world.

With new events and new construction projects, TG can adress one of this players desires, WE can help with the rest. If we really want the game to survive, and TG needs time to work out the bigger issues, We need to be mindful to make the world inviting to the new player.

Now before you get up in arms that I'm being unfair to the ones that DO help like this, let me assure you that ( on chaos anyway ), I laud their tireless efforts to help new player. Many help, thats for sure. But because of the ones that, only worrying about their own fun, disregard the noob, the job is harder for those that do want to help. We can reclaim the sense of community IF we want to. TG will fix things as time goes by. In the meantime, let's show that we want new players by talking the game up where we can, help the new players feel a part of our world, and perhaps... they will stay and tell their friends about the really cool game they just started playing. ;)

[Guaran]

Agreed. I try to help when people ask questions also.

Guaran

[HratLi]

One of the main reasons I took all the classes was to be able to help out newbies (Not using that as a derogatory term) when I can. I keep about 500 bars of bronze in my vault for 'emergencies', and actually a number of cedar boards as well. Spells are, unfortunately outside of my ability to keep memorized due to limits. It's rare to find a true newbie in the world though, every one I've met in the starter towns tend to be alts. I do agree that we need to help take care of them when we can though.

Perhaps it's just the larger groups of folks that are on in the weekends and hours where I have been on, but new folks I have responded to privately seem very impressed that our folks are as friendly and helpful as they are, aside from occasional snarkyness on MarketPlace amongst the regulars.

All that said, it's been a long while since I've been able to issue one of my old school PC quests to anyone... I feel pretty out of touch with where all the low tier resources are post merger and would hate to send them to their certain Doom :) ("Well there USED to be Cedar there... no idea where those silver golems came from...")

-HratLi

[Nosdracir]

I try to help with the questions too. Also with cheap newb goods on the N.B. consigner. About once a week I try to hit N.B. and get a disk of material and drop a bunch of tools and spells on the connie at 50c each. I check the connie on the way in and try to only make stuff that is not already for sale so as not to compete with newb crafters. I'll also burn a few jman tokens and buy a couple of tool or spell forms to drop on the connie at 100c each. None of this ever comes back to my vault.

[Smeglor]

I'm not directly involved, so I don't have any details, but I know one of the things being worked on is a revamp of the tutorial processwith an emphasis on teaching the necessary things such that at the end of the tutorial, new players know where to go and what to do.

[Tarod_Chaos]

He had tried to ask some questions in marketplace, but gotten discouraged by the lack of response.

NOBODY helps anyone in there. The times I have tried, despite repeating myself are completely ignored and covered over by the banter of people boasting or selling thier ridiciously over-priced techs. No one in that channel (that I have ever seen) is in the slightest bit interested in helping others. Marketplace? More like Greed Place.

[Zarcharien]

I always try to help new players with any questions or supplies ect, and I have no doubt that a revamp of the tutorial will be a huge improvement to the problem.I don't suggest anyone really go to the MP channel for help; the General channel seems to be a more helpful place for new players.

[refuse]

This is not a rant.
I want to assure you I do try to help people.
But I find the game actually limits my ability to help the newer players, to the point I focus on one area to help new players. The very fact that the game is designed (it seems) to limit any one player's contribution is the major problem.

What can we do to help that situation?

Lately, many keep saying that they hope TG starts pumping money into advertizing. It seems that many believe that the solution rests solely in TG hands.

This is NOT the case.

We are directly involved too. What we say in MP, on the boards, in IRC contribute considerably more to the impression of the game than any ad on a game site could.

Absolutely.

If we really want to help, why not talk up the good aspects of the game. What we find fun.
I'm not saying we need to become blind fanboi's, just think about what effect our words will have on new players.

I think the problem becomes, do we know what we think is fun?
Is that still in the game (i.e. available, not broken).
And why do players keep playing.

Case in point.

Had a new player on Chaos send me a tell and ask a few questions. His comments were that "everyone" said this game had lot's of problems. He could not find where anything was and nobody seemed to want to help. They were, "all too busy to want to bother". He had tried to ask some questions in marketplace, but gotten discouraged by the lack of response. He really didn't want much... just a bit of direction, and a point in the right direction. He said he really wanted to get involved in building the world.

Yes, this is a two part problem.

1) The game does not support beginners without community effort. With out a good number of beginners, the beginner isles are not terribly useful. This actually extends past beginners to all levels of play.

Case in point, I decided to help kill an anchor last night. But I never really go out adventuring so I didn't have armor. So I hoped on the sight to look for armor (I usually fight in my cargo armor), and I started looking for armor for a 60th level Healer. Well between Iron, reinforced leather and a few pieces of steel I put together enough armor to go out fighting. But there is hardly any armor for sale.

Just as there isn't alot for beginners, their isn't alot of community for any level. The community aspect is in the guilds. i.e. they help each other out with making items needed, or collecting forms/components.

2) The Game actually limits helping beginners, as well as helping players at all levels.

The fact that I had to visit3 towns to find a hodgepodge of armor indicates there is a lack of people making what is needed. The limits of the game actually enforce this (i.e. 10 items on consigners, when 10 items are needed for armor, and thus you can sell 1 suit of armor at most).

Also going back and helping beginners is a hard thing to do. Are you power leveling them? Are you holding their hand? Beginners are needed to help beginners, i.e. beginer craftsmen making beginner tools and weapons (again, see my point about 10 items on consigners, I put tools up in NB and can only put 10 up, that leaves out making armor, weapons, selling forms. . . )

But back to my example, last night a person was in MP asking for help (on Chaos) taking out an anchor in the gold mines, where they were mining. I rushed out there and died (no armor) so I went back and started hunting for Armor (again, I don't hunt that often, and when I do it is usually 1 golem at a time). 20 minutes of porting (2 crashes) I got a hodge podge of armor to go back and help.

But now I have this mixmaxxed armor (no weapon was found).

So what do I do with it?

well I can sell it, but that uses up on consigner.
I can try to store it on my plot, but as my plot is a crafting plot, I am pretty maxed out in "items". I have almost all the crafting classes, with tools that fill up 2 T1 buildings, add in tents for clothes/armor (cargo for the different levels), components and more and a plot is filled.
I can give it to a dragon to horde (I spent 50s on the armor).
I can deconstruct it.

But the point is the game again doesn't really give me options to save things for beginners. Plot storage is a problem (item count), if I keep "stuff" to make things for beginngers, I have to collect resources before helping beginners, and is that really helping them, or just hand holding?

The next point is, where things are. Who knows. I ask people where things are all the time, and I get "where the bone golems Use to be". Or "Not sure they are in game", or. . .

I can point beginners at quests, say the Imperial Herald quest, seems like a good quest. But the quests seem to have not been modified for the new world layout. The Imperial Herald quest has you run through 20th level wolves outside of Dalimond, and run between New Rach and Tazoon right through 40th level wolves (you can port to Tazoon, and get stuck in the ground). So that quest seems a bit overpowering for beginners though the item given is a beginner item.

So what other "quests" can they do?
Crafting
You can say do crafting quests. Collect/make X items.

Or help them with a crafting class-
Confectioner - make sure they understand that they can't sell the items (10 items on consigners)
the list really goes on. Disks are not on all that often as again the 10 item limit, foods are not on 10 item limit (by level), same with potions and more.

You can say do trophy quests. Kill X mobs.

Or you can pick a class and do the class quests.
Spiritist - Kill ice beetle (not a good entry quest)
Blood Mage - What quests?
Other biped classes - depends.

Dragons, then set their expectations.


Plots help them find a plot (easy) buy a plot (easy) then explain how they will need all the construction classes, or alot of money, and explain the difficulty in finding machines, forms, and more.

So really helping a new player is basically walking them through the game, showing where resources are (or showing them how to use Pekka's map, and explaining that every patch will require it to be reinstalled).
Then helping them get the basic tools (note as I have many of the crafting classes, and confection I have many many forms, and I am waiting to hit the form limit, thus reducing my ability to help) and weapons and armor (again this requires having slightly better then beginner abilities in most of the crafting classes to help make what they need).
Then showing them how to fight mobs, and where they are on beginner isles.
If they are doing crafting show them where the resources are, and then show them where the machines are (confection is the worse). Show them which resources are easy but don't have machines, what have machines and are easy and where to make processed (final) products. Then show them how to deconstruct (as they probably can't sell it on consigners because of the item limit).

From there, you can get them to T2 which starts another level of where things are, where are machines, where are processing stations, new equipment, new armor, new tools and more forms of course they will have to make it, or you will have to help as not alot is on consigners.

With new events and new construction projects, TG can adress one of this players desires, WE can help with the rest. If we really want the game to survive, and TG needs time to work out the bigger issues, We need to be mindful to make the world inviting to the new player.

True.
But the basic game engine requires a level of involvement with new players that makes it painful to help, unless that is all you are going to do for the night. You can't put a bunch of cheap tools on the consigners for beginners, you can only put 10 items period. So is it tools, or weapons, or armor or forms?

Quests: how to avoid bad ones that don't finish because items or people are not in game (joquine in dralk!)or help finishing beginner ones (running from dalimond during the speed tests, or NR to Tazoon in the endurance). Classes with now quests, or quests that can't be completed until much later (satyr isle requirements (bulger)).

Then there is the training of what things mean. Techs, how to add them to items (Seems easy enough, but no manual with 7 day trial). How to find machines, when the resource is in a city that doesn't have a processing machine (clay outside brist, pepper outside heather. . . ) With no in game help in finding these items (totally community dependent or using Pekkas).

Then there is the way to make money (honestly sell to PB, Consigners cost money a beginner doesn't have, and only 10 items), mobs that don't drop money (not bad on beginner isles, but what from there?).

Now before you get up in arms that I'm being unfair to the ones that DO help like this, let me assure you that ( on chaos anyway ), I laud their tireless efforts to help new player.

And it shouldn't be tireless.
The problem is people need help for T1, then T2, then T3, then T4, then T5. Pekka's saves me the most amount of time in game, but it is uninstalled every time I get an update.
I can't help out by putting cheap tools on consigners, as I can only get 10, and I should be putting cheap tools there anyways as this undermines beginning crafters.
I don't know all the "non-finishable" quests. Nor should I have to.

Many help, thats for sure. But because of the ones that, only worrying about their own fun, disregard the noob, the job is harder for those that do want to help.

Perhaps they tried, and tried and tried. And like I am becomming, angry at theminimalamount of time it takes to get someone set up, and the fact that this "lead" in isTier dependent. Where do I mine Granite (outside aug because it has the machines), where do I mine Iron (outside aug,while it doesn't have both machines it is closer then dralk). Wheredo I find Portly Ruxxus? Where do I find myloc hairs (not in game see Vielo).
It gets tough.

Then we have people saying you need to help beginners, you need to help kill anchors, you need to help xyz.So Itry to help. (2 dryads killed an anchor by themselves last night! Rixley and Digit). But there isn't really any help from the game in doing this. 20 minutes to find armor, 2 port crashes, a DP from a game freeze up. Then 40 minutes making ambrosia (Milk at one place, wheat at another, machines at third, terra cotta at another place, Essence of Blight a pain, spirit frags) because food is so bungedto help beginners (>10th) because of DPs (figured 40 hours of time out ofgame seems to long, so making ambrosiais easier then making 30+ food items that theycan eat only 1 ofper 10 minutes).

We can reclaim the sense of community IF we want to. TG will fix things as time goes by. In the meantime, let's show that we want new players by talking the game up where we can, help the new players feel a part of our world, and perhaps... they will stay and tell their friends about the really cool game they just started playing. [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]

Sure, we can tell them why we like the game.
Though will they like it for the same reason?
Will they be able to see past the above described limitations?
Can Tulga make it easier for us to help them?

I try to keep NB stocked (10 items) and visit and make items for people that need it while I am there (full set of bronze/cedar/sandstone tools), but where do they keep it after I make it (no plot, vault limited).
Then go back and help with a disk when they can, if they ask when they need it.
Then go back and help with cargo armor, or armor (not so good at armor, to many forms)
Then go back with weapons, and helping with forms.

But it has to be individual, and with a few beginners under your wing, it gets time consuming, when I should be leveling or killing anchors, or guild building or. . . (my plot isn't even finished)

Yes talking up the game is easy.
The problem is, can the game help me help beginners?

[LaughingOtter]

I'm not directly involved, so I don't have any details, but I know one of the things being worked on is a revamp of the tutorial processwith an emphasis on teaching the necessary things such that at the end of the tutorial, new players know where to go and what to do.

I hope that revampincludes altering Boom! so that it can be scribed using regular spell shards. For that matter, adding a Boom! line of spells would be pretty nifty... But that's a topic for another forum area.

The tutorial area aside, getting started in the game is a PITA even when you know the game inside & out. Assistance from other players helps a lot, but the player community cannot do anything about the missing finishing machines, the lack of adventurer quests, and the lack of usable/rewarding loot drops. These issues are entirely in TG's court.

I'm not disputing that we as a community need to provide a welcoming, helpfull environment for new players. We do. It's just that even the warmest words of welcome and most sincere acts of kindness seem hollow while the beginner game is challanging to the point of frustration and disenchantment.

[Aamer Khan]

I know from personal experience with Ingo, Hratli, laughingotter, and others that they do indeed help as best they can, and are some of the very ones I said work tirelessly to help.

( I tip my hat to you all )

Then let's continue the discussion...

What CAN we do inspite of game issues, or inability ( for whatever reason ) by TG to fix them?

What can we do NOW?

I'm not naive. I don't believe that simple warm words can offset the difficulty a new player finds. Smeglor mentions the new tutorials in the works. This is great for the future. But what about now?

I guess part of my current frustrations come from hearing everyday, how rank MP is, how "I can't find anyone to make ( whatever )", how TG needs to fix XYZ.

Are you really telling me that you don't think we can do anything to help out? I know folks are not happy. I know on these boards I'm not the only one that feels pain at the lack of community. With so many good folks playing this game, I can't help but believe we can improve our own lot.

So, like I said, putting asside what we need TG to do, what can WE do?

You tell me

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

Good question Aamer.

I thinka few things we, as players, could really do is:

Populate a "Help Channel" (it used to exist on Twilight - I had asked Manga to make a channel for the purpose - but there were few ever in it). Everyone hangs in Market Channel because its the most populated. Who thinks they will get answers in a channel with one person in it?

Have some volunteers who will visit newbie isles offering help (in the form of answers on game mechanics and "tours"). Game Mechanics include setting up chats, showing off the UI, etc. Tours could be showing where to hunt/craft on Newbie Isles and then where to hunt/craft in main lands - tier 1 and 2.

Maybe we could create a guild fair event every other weekend - it could travel through different towns (including the newbie ones). Again, the object there is to get volunteers who will craft starting equipment. There could be Fair Cryer(s) who port to different cities shouting out where the fair is currently and where it will be in a few hours. Also a group of people could easily gather what is needed so it doesn't become to tedious for high level crafters who volunteer their time.

Just a few ideas...

[Stranyr]

one thing that can be done right off the top is to try to direct the players to the Help or General channels instead of the marketplace.

The marketplace is in fact for selling things.

I am Always in the help channel if I am playing and so are a few others (whom I won't mention cause I know I will forget someone lol)

Any time the help tab starts flashing someone usually answers within a minute or two. usually much quicker than that. Most questions I have seen placed in the general chat are also answered quickly.

I don't mean to harp here but perhaps the best way to help someone asking for help in the marketplace is to send them a private tell and help them or direct them to the help/general channels to get answers if you can't provide them yourself.

As to limiting the griping in public channels.. I have always been an advocate of that :)

[imported_peladon]

To those Wise Ones present, and to Stranyr Guild Master, greetings.

I am a fool among the Wise. Yet more, never have I walked the lands of Chaos. Nor ever will.... mayhap for reasons plain. Yet this I note. All those who have spoken of ill words and little aid in the market place do speak from the world of Chaos. Is this of significance? I know not.

To Stranrayr do I say this. Indeed the market is for selling. Yet, and mark me well if thou wouldst, in places known as real ( what so-ere that might mean) in times long gone, it was another thing. Whether minstrel a wander-ing or traveller travelling or searcher seeking, it would be the first port of call for any soul new found in a new place. There they might gather news, they might seek lodging, they might pick a pocket or spend a coin. To find a friend, or seek an enemy, the stall holder would be a valuable mouth to start speaking.

Of a time and a time do I find myself in the market of Order. For the Wise Ones who do gather there, I once again present my regrets at their suffering of my words... <G>. Yet, and this is again and again so, many and often does a new resident of our lands make their way there and ask of the making, or the doing or the finding. And yes, indeed, of the selling. And those present will elnd their voices to that one's weal and reserve their woe for those long present. If Sslimath do once more seek Bori with blade drawn and run pell and mell through the stall holders it is no new thing, yet if a new soul seeks aid, then gifts they nay find and words of wisdom ( provided they listen not to my own words!) and a guide to the places of hunting...

We mayhap are strange souls in the land of Order. We mayhap are rare souls, and let none think all is joy and gladness, for there are harsh words of a time. Mostly, it must be said, at Sephiranoth. Who doth then return to silence <G>. Yet, of my seeing and speaking, there is community and aid and succour for the new spirit to be found. And if it be found in the market, then that is no ill thing to me.


Sephiranoth, called by some ShadowSeeker

[Amerelium]

...I can't speak for Chaos and Order, but on Unity the mood is pretty helpful towards newbies. I know that new dragons at least are welcomed. The problem is spotting them; a lot don't know how to get into the relevant chat channels.
As for the tutorials, I've talked with Luca and I'm gonna put together a basic training section for the new EU website; and introdiction to the interface, and the basic features one need to know to get underway. If the US DEVS wanna use it, feel free to so so. I'm gonna try to get it linked in here, and get it posted on the community site. Feel free to PM me with ideas of what to put in, specially lesser's stuff...

[cattoy]

it's a two step process.

Supporting newbies by stocking the NB connie is good, but only helpful if they sign up for the free trial first. It doesn't matter if the NB connie is full to bursting with cheap t1 goodies if nobody is there...and lately, NB has been pretty empty.

What do we need to do to get people to download the trial version? Putting up a website with your character description and some screenshots are a good start. Maybe some fanart. Lord knows I've seen a metric buttload of RO fanart. There used to be a lot of PSO fanart sites, too.

Horizons, not so much.

The game is nothing without community. If we can extend the sense of community to the web, perhaps people who wander by will be attracted to what they see and sign up for the trial. Provided the things we project to the outside are the things that we find attractive, the people who will be most likely to dl the trial based on that sort of guerilla advertising will be the sorts of people who will fit in the easiest...

...it's a thought, anyway...
I gotta go work on a website.

[Seikojin]

:o
I generally try to help anyone i catch asking or talking about things. I also look in MP for questions to help people out... I try to inform the person asking as much as i know on the subject and thoughts I generate on it...

I have a few friends who let others know they can bug me any time for help or questions...

For the here and now its get into different chat channels, look for lvl 0-10 players and give them tells or be where they are... usually someone knew with a question will ask it...

on a side note, I got a new computer games mag, and it had a new horizonsa ad in it...

[Sasantiz]

Great Topic again Aamer.

Playing on unity there arent many newbies around to help, or atleast thats the general idea i get from looking at the population there.
Before i can dive further into the subject of helping newbies I think i would be in place to gaze back a bit and look at how the world looked like when i started about 6-8 months ago.
When i first started i created a char on Wind shard and followed the tutorial as best i could. Amazed at the wonderful world. I loved the user interface and the wayI controlled my char and the wayI progressed did alot of crafting quests and taskmaster quests and alot of adventure trainer quests, trying to get to paladin.New brommel was somewhat stocked with equipment and buzzed with activity, the newbies helped each other, boy didI feel stupid whenI learned about the soul frag quest at a point where i felt comfortable about the game.

Now back thenI dident ask for muchI sorta took the learn by doing approach, sotra afraid to bother the community with questions I would figure out on my own, how ever I did and still do ask for directions and such.
Wentl i was a lvl 25 paladin grouping a bit but was never the less unguilded.

Taking a look at the community now it seems that the few newbies, the loud ones atleast, seem to want it all RIGHT NOW!. And wont settle with "Well the Shining Blades quest is a long quest i cant power you thru it at all in the next couple of hours,the bottlecap collection takes time to gather". Theese "I want Instant Power" newbies makes me less willing to take time to take heed to the newbies and thus also ignoring the newbie who really need nothing but directions to crafting machines or on how to level blacksmith most effective.
This i feel is the major player in ruining the high <-> low level interaction.

But with that said I always try to help out charaters of lower level when crafting in or around their hunting grounds. Kion volcano ect. offering them rez if they get in trouble and the like.

*edit* But i will try harder and me more helpful towards the newbies

[Vahrokh]

The newbies of long ago are not the same newbies of today.

The first Hz players usually followed the game from start, went thru beta.

They camefor Horizons, not for a MMO or a generic game.
Then the game started and guess what? All were low level, so of course all were interested in low level matters and helping each other at low level.
And no 8 x level 100 god around to beg for feeding.
And no crapass level 120 mob that sits here since months waiting for a blind, deaf and rotten dummie to come and kill them with no skill.

Today, the newbies who come see Hz as just another MMO, to possibly enter, use, have some good time, jump to the next. Like in many other games.

The approach of course is different. Wanting just a good time will let them discard "grinding", boring, painfully quests with dubious reward (aka what Horizons has as "content") - I have been told of this many times.
Wanting a good time they will be big and mean and fast.
Horizons gives all the means to powerlevel easily, and criss crossing is imbued into the game to raise several skills at a time.
Manynewbies are not interested at all at starting at level 1 and stay < level 10 for a week just to "savor" the game. They want to go to the meat.
The meat in Hzis at level 90+, so there they go.

Then, after a pair of months of passing some good time, it gets boring since there's no end game and by that time anther Big Game will be out to catch them.

Basically, you won't see anymore the nice and cute newbies of the ancient times. Because ancient times are over now.

[Varangaard]

Before we want to see any new players here, the game should be made more accessible and friendly to low-level, non-guilded characters. New tutorial island that is being worked on, if it works well, should be a good start. The next hurdle will be getting any new players to try HZ (as it sure ain't getting too many now).