Game balance and character-system

[Cadfael]

...

I would suggest a strict division of life/nature and sprit/blight magic like it already exists between these and the domains of flame/ice/energy/mind.Further healing spells and class-specific healing abilities should be restricted to healers,clerics and druids ONLY. To a lesser degree -as it currently is the case - paladins, rangers and guardiansshould have access to healing spells. Shamans as a cross-over-class should be limitedto the domains of nature and blight with no access to either true life and true spirit magic. All other classes should have no access to healing spells, to once again improve the role of a cleric or healer in a group.

...

Please note: The discussion is meant about character balance - not ethics, not moralsand notfinding an individual explanation, why a charcater might still have developed such a combination of classes from the point of roleplaying.

...

Narkano

When I reached lvl 45 as sprd and 50 as alchimist I understood that disciple was totally broken and I looked how I could improved my favorit class (spirit disciple).

I started to learn blood line as a bloodmage (and transform in a vampire like), no chance, even if the bloodmage was really powerfull it did not improved sprd.

I decided to learn shaman until 76 to master all Tier IV nature and blight spells. When I reach spirit disciple 100, I am able to cast all Tier IV nature (damage), blight (debuff), spirit (heal).

Sure I will still not be an efficient meleer (evasion broken) or damage dealer (damage is so low it rarely bypass the mob AC) but at least I will be able to help the group.

When you ask for such big changes, please think to the disciple (and monk) that are so much gimp, they need every bit of additionnal power to succeed.

Btw, I am fitter 40 and I will need to enhance it as well for the str boost.

spirit disciple 98, shaman 76, warrior 2
alchimist 53, blk 55, miner 38, fitter 40

[PJ]

But the class still has its disadvantages and must be rather careful.Accurate timing and knowlegde ofones abilities and spells are required to survive and "farm" such mobs. Nonetheless debuffs are your bane, as are mobs, that do not gather in groups and those that deal out ethereal damage. You may have 2 healing spells from the cleric teched with cleanse, but they can only detoxify single debuffs with luck and do not help you, if you take massive damage.
Narkano

First off, as it stands all biped multiclassed builds that include cleric or healer have access to triple cleanse III teched raise health (5 second timer) which is a better option than any cleanse teched healing spell, or purify or detoxify for the purposes of buff removals.

Really nice lists up there ... of course the other classes have some abilities and spells, too. Of course other combinations can become quite powerful. Never claimed otherwise. But compared to that killing machine they can only pale. NONE can compare to that!

Firstly they can compare, watch me. All of those builds are perfectly capable of farming. Sure the last one is probably better at it, but that doesn't preclude the others from beingeffectiveat it.

Yeah that is a real potent build....at farming. Why are you so hung up on farming?Get over it. There's more to the game from the adventure standpoint than farming. It is in no way, shape or form the best build in the game. Go hunt some of the named mobs. Yeah all of those builds can do it. But the first one which your so down upon is superior. Unleash a Burnout, Fusion Burn, Perfect Spell, Multicast III Fiery strike V on a named, spellbind, binding crystals,improved flame bolt V. That named is getting ripped in halfwhile your "super" character is still grimacing menacingly while he nibbles at the mob while hechain stuns and casts Eth parox and spirit bolt.Go hunt some real WA and you'll find out the limitations and weaknesses of your "super" character real fast.

[Narkano]

Hmm ... THAT one missed completely.

First I really hate farming. Almost never participated and especially did not do italone. I am quite glad that the multiple-bonus was somewhat modified in the end. Didn't do the game any good. But as I said, the damage was done already and cannot bereversed now. That's why dragons now have a problem and why they have fallen behind a bit.That's alsowhy multi-classing tends to overpower with some combinations now.

Second I almost exclusively hunt WA mobs as well as named ones. Most often alone andwith my main characters only. That "super character" as you name it I took over from a friend, that left the game. Was really astonished how much more powerful it was even with hisequipment partly tier IV and only teched at tier III. It is not for me, since Iwould not have the time to care for another character and his equipment and as you might haveexpected because I consider it overpowered. Further I like roleplaying very muchand really could not find a role for that character, that I would consider consistent with my approach to fantasy gaming.

My concern is only the character balance that I consider somewhat broken now. The single classes well-though and well-balanced but the restrictions for multi-classing not thought-out too well. It simply wasn't necessary before, when most players were only able to reach 100th level in one class.Then the changes on one hand were made too quickly and the reaction to the mistakes on the other hand came too slowly if at all. Thatautomatically lead to the current problems.

From my 20 years as GM for roleplaying events and groups I can attest thatfor the success ofa game and even a single gaming-session balance isquite a crucial point. When the balance is right all players of all attitudescan behappy with the game and have fun. If you start to disturb the balance by overpowering certain character classes youget right the opposite. Some players tend to leave the game forthright.Others grumble more or less but stay with the game and the group while usually causing disputes among the group members.Onlyvery few are able to stay and simply play their game without being dissatisfied or frustrated.

I know of whole guilds that came here from the roleplaying servers of other MMORPGs and left Horizons especiallybecause ofthat missing balance between the classes. They started their character as roleplaying characters- some also with muli-classing - and reallyenjoyed Horizons until that extreme multi-classing started after thechanges. That's why I strongly suggest to think it over now to get a solid basis for the future that I hope Horizons will have.

Narkano

[PJ]

I know of whole guilds that came here from the roleplaying servers of other MMORPGs and left Horizons especiallybecause ofthat missing balance between the classes. They started their character as roleplaying characters- some also with muli-classing - and reallyenjoyed Horizons until that extreme multi-classing started after thechanges. That's why I strongly suggest to think it over now to get a solid basis for the future that I hope Horizons will have.

And I know plenty of people here who've stayed because of the multiclassing system. Most of the people who I know who have left have cited bugs, poor performance (lag, low fps, crashing, locking up, etc), lack of advertised content, lack of new content, communication issues, unaddressed class issues pertaining to single classes. In fact I can't recall a single person who left because "Too many other people are clerics or druids"

From my 20 years as GM for roleplaying events and groups I can attest thatfor the success ofa game and even a single gaming-session balance isquite a crucial point. When the balance is right all players of all attitudescan behappy with the game and have fun. If you start to disturb the balance by overpowering certain character classes youget right the opposite. Some players leave the game forthright, some grumble but stay with the group, usually causing disputes among the group and onlyvery few are able to stay and simply play their game without being dissatisfied.

First of all the only thing thats been established about your super classes is that their better at farming not overall. These classes are different, not better than the rest. Yeah plenty of people have left because their characters felt underpowered compared to others. But that was a single classing issue.People left when their archer or monk or dragon or whatever felt weak single classed compared to certain classes. Suprise suprise, some multiclassed versions of these weak single classes feel the same way now in comparison to multiclassed versions of the same certain classes. Maybe the real problem is with the class not with the multiclassing system. Treat the problem not the symptom. You can take the monk out of the gimp but you can't take the gimp out of the monk.

Second I almost exclusively hunt WA mobs as well as named ones. Most often alone andwith my main characters only. That "super character" as you name it I took over from a friend, that left the game. Was really astonished how much more powerful it was even with hisequipment partly tier IV and only teched at tier III. It is not for me, since Iwould not have the time to care for another character and his equipment and as you might haveexpected because I consider it overpowered.

If you need some advice playing your arcane multiclass you should of just asked. I know some absolutely devastating mages, knocs, and sorcs who put anycleric/druid/spiritist super multiclassI know to shame.

Further I like roleplaying very muchand really could not find a role for that character, that I would consider consistent with my approach to fantasy gaming.

I'm not much of a roleplayer but I can quickly whip up a "role" for my character. I'm a soldier. I'm here to fight the WA Armies. I'm here to use all the tools and skills and abilties I have available to defeat them whatever the cost.

Or did you mean the stereotypical well defined group roles of "tank", "healer", "nuker", "crowd controler" etc? Horizons has these sort of roles at the lower levels. At the higher levels they tend to disappear with the preponderance of farming/soloing. If you're soloing you're every group role no matter how multiclassed or not you are. But there's stilla large place for roles. Every good High Level group savaging the real undead in the Satyr Islands, or East Deadlands, or at an Anchor has defined roles for its members. Multiclassed characters are like special forces, in a group you have a specific role to play. But you're crosstrained so you're able to perform other functions as well if those previously playing those roles become incapacitated.

[Narkano]

You mingle some things ...

... I emphasized on how much players appreciate multi-classing since Horizons stands out with it.

... I never said anything about balance and reckless multi-classing being the only reason to leave the game.

... I also said nothing about too many clerics/druids but reckless multi-classingwithout any rhyme or reason.

... I never said anything about farming in the first place, mingled that already with your last reply.

... I have a mage/sorcerer/conjurer/knoc ... and know quite well how to use his spells and abilities, no need for help:)

... I surely do not speak of taking stereotypical roles, but to choose a consistent personality for a character and stick to it.

But you missed the point about balance it seems. That's what I started this discussion for.

Narkano

[PJ]

Mayhaps you should help me then. State it simply then. What exactly is out of balance?

[Narkano]

Oh come on ... you can't be serious ... perhaps start reading from the beginning. All was said as clearly as could be.

Narkano

[imported_tjl]

Maybe nothing is out of balance. But something is definatly wrong. Each time new mobs came out, they almost always had huge increases in HP, armor, abilites, damage output, and XP. Crimson scourge for example. They were great additions, that were fairly difficult for a single classed character, and still pretty hard for a 2x100, maybe even a 3x100 character. Using the outrageous XP they rewarded, a sizeable amount of the playerbase gained around 3x100 or more. Or perhaps they still dont have more than 1x100 class, but have 50 or 60 levels in many other classes, which grant decent skills and spells.

Then came post merge and the newer mobs had... huge increases in HP, armor, abilites, damage output, and XP... to parallel this growing amount of characters that had essentially every tool availible to kill a mob. They can stand toe-to-toe with almost all mobs out there, and in most circumstances thier victory will be certain, and often it will be quick.

The emphasis for killing mobs now has shifted. In the beginning, it was using all the options your one class gave you to exploit a weakness in a mob, or to create one. With mobs near your level a 1v1 situation usually resulted in victory. 2v1 it was a tough battle, large chance of dying, but doable with some luck. 3v1 was almost suicide.

Tack on a few more levels in a couple more schools, and you can create and exploit many times more weaknesses in a mob. So, mobs without weaknesses are now the staple. The game developers now have to go so far as providing melee mosters (almost all of them) with several caster semi-unique skills, like stunning, DoT, debuffs, regens... just to slow down the impending assault they will get from mulitclassed characters now.

Which leads to the root of the problem, in my opinion.

Reason 1.) Mobs do not use thier given abilites correctly! Casting mobs in particluar are the worst. I'm sure everyone out there has been multicast mezzed by a mage mob. After over a year, the enemy AI is still non-existant. Crimson scourge were the closest thing to a battle worthy mage mob. Even if they had to bump thier HP, power, abilites, and focus. The remaining mobs on the map just target thier attacker, and whack away, in a pre-defined pattern of attack. A mob with decent AI will be a challenge for a 1x100 or a 8x100, just the multiclassed character may get the job done faster. And that is their privelge, as they get far less XP for the kill.

Reason 2.) Multiclassing is too open ended. One character should not be able to aquire as many abilites, spells, and stats like they can now. This is my opinion, and my opinion only. This is not fact. While there is nothing inherently wrong with multiclassing for such benefits, I think it is proving detrimental to the balance. With such open-endedness, the next set of mobs is guarenteed to be many times more powerful than than anything on the map now... maybe to a point where 3x100 cannot compete. So the need to grind away more adventure levels will be again, renewed.

However, given that the playerbase is currently very low, Reason 2 will not be addressed, and it shouldn't be, because it is a way for an adventurer to make his or her own content.

[Seranthor]

I have to say that multi-classing isn't the problem, its the balance that is the problem. If you overcompensate against multclassing your going to create a new exodus from the game and most likely will cause its untimely death. Although the lack of comms from TG is already starting the exodus slowly but surely.

[PJ]

Oh come on ... you can't be serious ... perhaps start reading from the beginning. All was said as clearly as could be.

Narkano

I'll be off rereading, but while i am...it shouldn't be so hard to state a simple point about what specificly is out of balance....pretend I'm a complete idiot.

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

I just wanted to say.....PJ, you rock man!

No offense to anyone - PJ just made me laugh - he's a good debator.....dare I even say....a Master....(gonna leave it like that).

See you guys in game - peace out.

[imported_tjl]

I have to say that multi-classing isn't the problem, its the balance that is the problem. If you overcompensate against multclassing your going to create a new exodus from the game and most likely will cause its untimely death. Although the lack of comms from TG is already starting the exodus slowly but surely.

The logic seems circluar. Multiclassing is what is straining the balance. More adventure levels on one character lends to increasingly powerful mobs which in turn "force" many to tip this elusive balance back in their favor, by taking more and more adventure classes. Round and round we go. Also, a lack of content "forces" people to multiclass ad nauseum. But to add new content, they must take the power an adventurer has into account in order to maintain this "balance". (new content mob-wise that is)

And they already have overcompensated against multiclassing, only on the mob side. And the casual gamer, or the person who does not want to, or cannot take more than one, maybe two classes, (wheather it be for Role Play reasons, personal reasons, time constraints, whatever...) most have already made thier exodus.

[PJ]

Okay I've reread all your posts twice, and about to go over them again. You keep refering to balance.

Here:

The reason being, that the current character-system hassome kind of"flaw" that breaks apart former character-balanceand allows for the creation of a kind of super-powerful character. Those characters are on one hand almost invulnerable to even vastnumbers of the most dangerous foes and on the other hand defy any common reason ofa fantasy game. So great is the advantage, that few players can deny the benefitsand develop their characters the same way.

and Here

Since player numbers are at an all-time low this might bethe most opportune moment to make such changes without annoying too many players and create a solid game balance and basis for the future.

Please note: The discussion is meant about character balance - not ethics, not moralsand notfinding an individual explanation, why a charcater might still have developed such a combination of classes from the point of roleplaying.

Please don't try to interpret individual words or sentences I used as good or bad to loose the point by arguing aboutsuch topics. Better try to reasonabout the problem at hand. The discussion will get out of hand, when everyone having a spiritist-related class now starts an argument. The discussion was meant about character balance - not ethics, not moralsand notfinding an individual explanation, why a charcater might have developed such a combination of classes from the point of roleplaying.

... that it is possible for every player to exploit the given possibilities and become as powerful doesn't make it any better and doesn't help withgame balance. Just imagine for a moment that with Horizons spellcasters would be all powerful and fighters wouldn't. Of course you can reason that this must be the case, that it sounds logical to you and that everyone can play a spellcaster ... but to what end? A broken game balance where characters who won't take a special class will be much weaker ...

My concern is only the character balance that I consider somewhat broken now. The single classes well-though and well-balanced but the restrictions for multi-classing not thought-out too well. It simply wasn't necessary before, when most players were only able to reach 100th level in one class.Then the changes on one hand were made too quickly and the reaction to the mistakes on the other hand came too slowly if at all. Thatautomatically lead to the current problems.

From my 20 years as GM for roleplaying events and groups I can attest thatfor the success ofa game and even a single gaming-session balance isquite a crucial point. When the balance is right all players of all attitudescan behappy with the game and have fun. If you start to disturb the balance by overpowering certain character classes youget right the opposite. Some players tend to leave the game forthright.Others grumble more or less but stay with the game and the group while usually causing disputes among the group members.Onlyvery few are able to stay and simply play their game without being dissatisfied or frustrated.

I know of whole guilds that came here from the roleplaying servers of other MMORPGs and left Horizons especiallybecause ofthat missing balance between the classes. They started their character as roleplaying characters- some also with muli-classing - and reallyenjoyed Horizons until that extreme multi-classing started after thechanges. That's why I strongly suggest to think it over now to get a solid basis for the future that I hope Horizons will have.

But you missed the point about balance it seems. That's what I started this discussion for.

You refer to balance numerous times we see, but you never actually declare what you mean by it. Just saying "Balance" isn't very indicative. Here are just some of the possible interpretations

Mob vs. single class Character balance
mob vs. multiclass character balance
Class vs Class balance (from the point of view of character power)
class vs class balance from the point of view of character diversity)
single class vs multiclass balance (from the point of view of character power)
single class vs multiclass balance (from the point of view of character diversity)
multiclass vs multiclass balance (from the point of view of character power)
multiclass vs multiclass balance (from the point of view of character diversity)

And that's just off the top of my head.

This one comes close so its my best guess atm

Why won't you allow healers, clerics, druids, shamans, spiritists and bloodmages to cast all mage spells? Because of character balance and because they would become much too powerful. Exactly the sameis true now for life/nature-classes using spirit/blight and vice versa.

I am well aware, that no-one wants to loose a such a major benefitwho already tasted its power. On the other hand a long-term viewon character balance dictates otherwise.

I can only guess you mean this one

multiclass vs multiclass balance (from the point of view of character power)

And when your supporting points were disputed on the basis of this interpretations, you're supporting points suddenly became "general truths" and undisputable and undeniable.

I do not want to argue about wording. No one is absolutely invulnerable and there are foes even such a super-powerful character cannot stand in numbers. I never claimed that. The basic statement still proves true, though.

You cannot deny the possibility, though. You also cannot deny, that the combination of those classes makes for a vastly superior character at which other classes can only look in awe.

And DO NOT say this isn't true, since I have one such character and know all too well, what I am speaking about!

Oh come on ... you can't be serious ... perhaps start reading from the beginning. All was said as clearly as could be.

Certainly makes it hard to discuss an issue.

Although I suspect that's still not your notion of balance, as you've got numerous points and examples which would be extraneous under that definition.

[Seranthor]

Great work Narkano, now you have the scaly leezard wound up.... now its your turn to unwind him... :)

[Narkano]

To make it very short, since I see no reason in repeating myself.

-I consider multi-classing a boon allowing for the creation of unique characters and being a benefit for both hardcore-players as well as those with precious little time. The reasons for that I named above in length.

The levels of multi-classing:

- Some combination of classes add this or that ability or spell to the chosen base class, strengthening it. i.e. a warrior taking cleric for dispirit and the 2 healing spells or monk to 10th level for the foresight ability. A spellcaster adding mage to 36th level for gaining multicast. Nothing too powerful, but a nice boon indeed. The base class canonly benefit from very certain abilities and/or spells of the chosen multi-class however.

- Some combinations complement each other most often having been the prerequisite.i.e. a ranger/gurardian who also raises druid. A paladin raising cleric/healer. A Reaver raising spiritist/bloodmage.A KnoC, BTLM, ChsW raising mage/sorcerer/conjurer. This complements the class allowing it full access to a field it is already proficient with. The same is true for a druid raising healer/cleric for example to strenghten his grip on augmentation and to access the missing 4 health spells. All this makes the character considerably stronger but also is quite in tune with the chosen base class.

- The last possibility is what I consider a break in balance. Choosing a class and fully ADDING all of its powers to yours, giving you full benefitof a completely NEW classwith spells and abilities you did completely miss before. That is the case when you take a cleric/healer/paladin/druid/guardian/rangerand ADD spiritist/bloodmage/reaver to it and vice versa. This makes for a multi-class much more versatile and powerful than any other combination. To allow the mage- or fighter-classes full access to life/nature would have the same detrimental results on character balance.

That this multi-class isfar more powerful than any other matter of factlycannot be denied. It'sas logical as it is inevitable. I've already given the reasons above. For perhaps better understanding I've added this explanation to my initial post as well.

Narkano

[PJ]

You typed all that and you managed to continue to dodge my question. What exactly do you mean by balance. Its not a trivial question, and by continuing to dodge it you make it impossible to correctly address your points. Hence my constant "missing the point"

Since I can't address your point as you're unwilling to completely establish it. I'll just correct some inconsistencies in your supporting arguments.

Some combinations complement each other most often having been the prerequisite.i.e. a ranger/gurardian who also raises druid. A paladin raising cleric/healer. A Reaver raising spiritist/bloodmage.A KnoC, BTLM, ChsW raising mage/sorcerer/conjurer. This complements the class allowing it full access to a field it is already proficient with. The same is true for a druid raising healer/cleric for example to strenghten his grip on augmentation and to access the missing 4 health spells. All this makes the character considerably stronger but also is quite in tune with the chosen base class.

The last possibility is what I consider a break in balance. Choosing a class and fully ADDING all of its powers to yours, giving you full benefitof a completely NEW classwith spells and abilities you did completely miss before. That is the case when you take a cleric/healer/paladin/druid/guardian/rangerand ADD spiritist/bloodmage/reaver to it and vice versa. This makes for a multi-class more versatile and powerful than any other combination. To allow the mage- or fighter-classes full access to life/nature would have the same detrimental results on character balance

I thought you had a multiclassed knoc? I'd have thought you'd be more familiar with the arcane line. A Knoc only gets gets skill points in summoning, a CHSW only gets skill points in energy, a battlemage only gets skill points in flame and energy, an IceD only gets Ice, and a Flame Disciple only gets skill points in Flame,a sorconly gets skill points in Flame, Ice, and Mind, a Wizard only gets skill points in Flame, and Energy, a Conjurer onlygets skill points in Flame, Ice, and Summoning. Yet all of these schools can use all arcane spells (Flame/Energy/Ice/Summoning/Mind), if they multiclass. Every Arcane school falls under you're 3rd class which so offends you.

Get your facts straight, If that's your argument for the imbalance (which you still refuse to define by the way), then point has no legs to stand on whatsoever.

[Seranthor]

So if Narkano is and has been truthful in everything he's said then he's against himself... hmmm... wonder how your going to resolve that one Narkano... :)

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

Its really good to talk about this stuff...for the future. "Balancing" (in quotes because I'm guessing as to what you refer to Narkano) multiclassing at the moment isn't going to bring more players into the game.

Everything that is out of wack at this time in game can be directly tied to server populations -- that's the illness for those that keep harping on these topics --

Everything being brought up on the boards are symptoms - and treating those right now won't cure the ills. Its important to talk about it and fix it eventually (I'm not saying these topics don't have merit) - but you do it now, and you will kill the patient (Horizons). I would wager with anyone that if Multiclassing wasn't in the game as it is now - NONE of us would be playing - the doors would have been shut 6 months ago.

The focus should be, "What will bring more players/subscribers into the game right now." Now, does anyone think that making drastic changes to multiclassing at this point in time will do that? Seriously?

Btw - good debate going here - hated to interrupt - just wanted to get my two coppers in real quick and maybe introduce another idea/thought process into the discussion.

[Narkano]

... discussion from my side is at an end here PJ ... what you're doing isn't reasonable any more. KnoC, ChsW, BTLM as well as conjurer, sorcerer, wizard and the disciplesare all completely mage-based classes that are alreadypartly mage and already have all those skills and you know that quite well. They later just specialize in one element to become evenbetter with it at thereduction or outright loss of one or more of the others. Think everyone is quite able to understand my point by now ... perhaps one must also be willing ...

... and as I already said: a change will befall some of my characters, too.

... and btw I am guild spellcrafter since the beginning of Hz and I know the spell lists more than just well!

@Bulgrim: Speak wasn't about drastic changes just to set some more restrictions to restore some kind of balance to the classes. And if you do notthink about that and changeit right now, BEFORE you get perhaps more players you will never again be able to do it. That might prove to be a short-lived decision.

Narkano

[PJ]

Hmmm more factual errors to correct.

Ice Disciple and Flame Disciple require only level 20 monk and the completion of the visit the disciple trainer quest. Going 1-20 monk, and subsequently 20-100 IceD or FLMD will never net you any mage skill other than Ice or Flame respectively. Neither will ever natively get Mind/Summoning/Energy, and Iced will only get Ice, and FLMD will only get Flame. Yet both can access all Arcane spells via multiclass.

Now then factual errors aside, its time for logical inconsistencies.

Neither Knoc, Chsw, or Battlemage, or Sorceror, or wizard, or conjurer, get all mage skills, yet can cast all mage spells.Now you say this is because they are mage prestiges? Becoming one of these prestiges in the traditional way will net you a little bit of all mage skills. But those skills do not come from the prestige school, they come from being level 20 or 15 mage as the case maybe. If mage were dropped once the prestige school were gained they would no longer have those extra skills.

Equally important is I can become a Knoc without ever being a mage. Knoc requires 200 1hs (it might be 2hs i forget) and160 summoning. The later is typically gained via 20 mage, but the requirement can be gainied entirely through training points, and you will get a knoc with no extraneous mage skills who could cast all arcane spells if he chose to multiclass. This works for all prestiges.

Being a "mage prestige" has nothing to do with being a mage. All you have to do is meet the prerequisites.

From another point of view. You say that Shaman shouldn't be allowed access to the spirit school (again the "balance" issue you still have yet to define). But under your last argument:

Shaman is joined via level 20 spiritist and level 20 druid. If your argument is valid then because my Shaman has a lingering 200 spirit from spiritist he should be able to cast all Spirit spells as well. I'm just specializing at the outright loss of any more spirit gains.

I can do this another way. Guardian is 200 One or Two Hand Crush and 200 Nature. I can meet these requirements by taking Cleric (9 1hc per level) to level 23 and druid to level 20. Does this mean my Guardian should be able to cast all life spells? He has 230 life lingering from his days of training up 1hc. I'm just specializing at the outright loss of anymore life gains.