article / interview over at Warcry

[AZVladimir]

My interpretation is when using a school that doesn't have or learn those skills they will not be available to you

Eg If you are 50 mage, 50 ice disciple you won't be able to use the flame/energy/mind/summoning skill

It could be worse than that. It may meen that when you are a fighter your Power and Focusdrops to nothing even though you have Mage to 100.

AZV

[Tryagain]

Limited Multiclassing Tulga NOT eliminating it sheesh. For if you are all correct in your interpretation of what he said this would effectively kill multiclassing as we all know it. I believe unlimited multiclassing to be bad for the game but believe limiting it to two or 3 classes max incorporating what is now would be better served than this idea.

It would be a very quick way to kill whats left of the playerbase should they go through with it.

[Jaraiden]

and are now focusing exclusively on content creation and client refinishing.

I would rather see client refinishing first in that sentence, if it relates to performance.

At the forefront is a schooling overhaul. . . . For instance, should someone who plays a warrior most of the time decided to raise his healing school skills.. . .However, in its current state, becoming part of another school didn't mute the skills you'd learned in another school. As an example, should our fighter decide to be a healer for the night, he could join the healing school, heal people, and still bash monsters like a fighter. Once the system has been changed to align with Bowman's vision, skills will come into and out of focus depending on what school the character belongs to at the time.

Ahh, skills. Most players should see the irony of using 100th level 1HC as a Healer 20. That is using a Warrior skill to raise a Healer's Life and related skills in the Healer school. This is good and long overdue. Use Healer skills to gain XP (as a Healer) to raise Healer levels. Granted, will have the health and statistics of a Warrior 100th level, so that is a plus. And likely get the masterable Warrior abilities per the current system. Still, it is not proper to rely on too muchof the Warrior side to gain knowledge as a Healer (from a logic standpoint won't a trainer ask why a character does not use his/her new skills?)

I hope, though, that more class distingushing skills are less masterable.

Don't forget, again, that multiclassing at 1 to 100 may not, should not, be the same as multiclassing at 101 to 120. Some classes are called prestige classes for a reason, not as something just to level in for its statistics, skills, and abilities.

Lootable equipment is making its way into Istaria, as well. . . . In the near future, Blighted weapons. . . .will also be craftable eventually, and every weapon that drops will have five random modifiers, both good and bad, placed on them, just to spice up things.

:: blinks :: tier II blighted weapons with five modifiers, awesome! Maybe, could speed the leveling process too fast (especially using the good items that result after a long crafting session and many, manyBlighted cores).

However, making Blighted weapons more desirable will mainly benefit the combine farmers (of creatures that drop Blighted cores and weapons) then interact with the crafters able to endure the long process of crafting/deconstructing those weapons. If creatures of Blighted item lore (WA humanoids and dragons) that are not underpowered carry those . . . . that is good.

Also on the horiz- list of upcoming changes are player created quests. The quests will be fully featured and created out of game using a special tool. . . . the new system will be the first of its kind in the MMOG industry.

An external program to generate the script needed for quests to be added. Excellent and will help make the Evolution Engine more attractive to other MMOGs. I'm sure other MMOGs have ways to incoporate player made quests, but a program for formatting that information for easy import is a great idea.

DB? Comments? [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

Chris T?

[fordirelifesake]

HAHA they better do this one right or its going to make ALT of people so annoyed that they will just give up and find another game. I wonder what it will do to crafting multiclasses...

[Phillip]

it's David Bowman's vision.

like we don't know how that goes already.

if you are an intelligent human being, gift with the abiltity to see things for what they are over a long period of time, you will know exactly what it's like to experience DB's vision.

it's utter crap.

let's be bold enough, be smart enough, be courageous enough to callreality for what it is.

limit multiclassing is the next exodus. period.

[refuse]

Ahh, skills. Most players should see the irony of using 100th level 1HC as a Healer 20. That is using a Warrior skill to raise a Healer's Life and related skills in the Healer school. This is good and long overdue. Use Healer skills to gain XP (as a Healer) to raise Healer levels. Granted, will have the health and statistics of a Warrior 100th level, so that is a plus. And likely get the masterable Warrior abilities per the current system. Still, it is not proper to rely on too muchof the Warrior side to gain knowledge as a Healer (from a logic standpoint won't a trainer ask why a character does not use his/her new skills?)

Kind of like dragon crafting no?

Mine gems to get better at essence.
Gather essence to get better at scale making.
Make scales to get better at spell crafting.

From a logic standpoint, if they break up multiclassing for bipeds, I do hope the break dragon crafting into at least 3 classes.

Still it is not proper for a dragon spell crafter to rely to much on the making of scales to gain knowledge as a scale crafter.

(see how the logic is broken on both sides).

[Kulamata]

At present, many attributes already fade in and outas you change classes.It is a subtle and well thought out system, particularly in the distinctions between spells and abilities.

Mastery level considerations limit the transfer of high level abilities; nothing earnedpast level fifty (sixty soon?) can be applied.And of course, some of the really nifty ones cannot be mastered at all.

Spells do transfer at full level, in a complex and well thought out way. Again, the strongest, class defining, spells do not transfer.

This system works, and it works well. If by great effort a player becomes very strong, fine. That's what great effort should do.

[Krald]

One of the things that bothered me about multiclassing was that when I changed to another class I rarely used their skills to level up, but mostly that was because for the rating and therefore level required to kill, they were useless. So its not really about my other classes skills being more powerful but more about the new ones just not being of use to me. Later on they do become useful, but most of the time you just end up leeching in a group or using other skills to raise it because any other way would be infinitely frustrating and dull.

In a way I'd like it so my old skills/spells are more or less taken away, but elements of them are added upon my new spells. So if I was a druid changing to spiritist I might get some nature damage on my spirit bolt, making it kinda up to the rating.

However this would be very hard to balance. Also it'd be hard to have it make sense from an RP perspective.

On the balance front, if it spread to everything It could get really silly, with elements from every class seeping into your main. So a spirit bolt that burned people over time, caused a small nature AoE, and slowed movement (like ice).. that'd be crazy and likely overpowered. If you could define what classes gave these effects, (like setting them as secondary) then some control could be given over this.

I really would like it to feel at least like you are playing the actual class you are in, and not just increasing a number using other skills or leeching. So somehow, I'd like that to be do-able to use the actual skills of that class. How it could be achieved is debateable and hard to discern.

[Jaraiden]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Jaraiden wrote: Ahh, skills. Most players should see the irony of using 100th level 1HC as a Healer 20. That is using a Warrior skill to raise a Healer's Life and related skills in the Healer school. This is good and long overdue. Use Healer skills to gain XP (as a Healer) to raise Healer levels. Granted, will have the health and statistics of a Warrior 100th level, so that is a plus. And likely get the masterable Warrior abilities per the current system. Still, it is not proper to rely on too muchof the Warrior side to gain knowledge as a Healer (from a logic standpoint won't a trainer ask why a character does not use his/her new skills?)
Kind of like dragon crafting no?

Mine gems to get better at essence.
Gather essence to get better at scale making.
Make scales to get better at spell crafting.

From a logic standpoint, if they break up multiclassing for bipeds, I do hope the break dragon crafting into at least 3 classes.

Still it is not proper for a dragon spell crafter to rely to much on the making of scales to gain knowledge as a scale crafter.

(see how the logic is broken on both sides).

Very true. Same with sculpting tools to level spellcrafter, crafting tools to level construction classes, and shared skills amid the crafting classes.

Now that you brought in the typical "biped vs. dragon" post . . . .

You certainly understand, scalecrafting was a challenge due to the limited number of scaleforges for over 13 months (and the pathetic "always intended to use anvil" addition for crafting scales recently). And dragons are unable still to craft their own machines for a plot.

And not my fault they removed dragon crafting classes to make it generic. And thus removed an aspect to distinguish dragons and improve the dragon economy. And also not have longer scalecrafting or spellcrafting quests to boost the skills past 9/level.

. . . . so it mitigates on the larger scheme.

But the focus is on adventure classes and schools of skills - as in using a skill maxed by class A to gain XP (and learning) in class B. Oh, and you realize that players will use a Blade of Rendering to level classes (as it is equippable based on crafting school also, with proper 1HS or 2HS skill . . . . seen a druid with one pre-merge).

Either way, would like to know about DB's vision of skills being "in focus" or "out of focus" or words to such effect. Perhaps his vision also includes removing the AR "penalty," as some players expect a "fun" rate gaininglevels even knowing that there is slower level gain as the number of classes (and levels) increase - again,a feature of multiclassing in Horizons.

[refuse]

Very true. Same with sculpting tools to level spellcrafter, crafting tools to level construction classes, and shared skills amid the crafting classes.

Now that you brought in the typical "biped vs. dragon" post . . . .

Actually I didn't.
I was making a counter point to your post about the sillyness of biped classes working.
I was pointing out that crafting, in particular dragon crafting follows the same "sillyness".

You certainly understand, scalecrafting was a challenge due to the limited number of scaleforges for over 13 months (and the pathetic "always intended to use anvil" addition for crafting scales recently). And dragons are unable still to craft their own machines for a plot.

Actauly, Dragon's can't do anything for a plot except ingenuity.
And yes, I understand dragons have had limited machines for 13 months.
Then again, blood mages have had 0 quests. . .
The list of "problems" is long.

But as pointed out in my first post in this thread. Changing a thing to be more limiting (i.e. removing what players have had so far) isn't adding content, or fixing the game.

Adding anvils to the list of machines that dragons can use is additive. Is it the 100% best solution? No but it is additive. Removing something people have had for 13 months (i.e. multicasting) is silly.

And as a Dragon, I am sure that when you said that

Most players should see the irony of using 100th level 1HC as a Healer 20.

I wanted to make sure that it was evident that alot of the "leveling" (using gems to level scholar. . . ) Is ironic.

Changes to limit multi-classing would be met by me with the same feeling of spliting dragons based on their choice during the RoP.

And not my fault they removed dragon crafting classes to make it generic. And thus removed an aspect to distinguish dragons and improve the dragon economy. And also not have longer scalecrafting or spellcrafting quests to boost the skills past 9/level.

. . . . so it mitigates on the larger scheme.[/quote]
Never said it was anyone's fault but the developers.

But the focus is on adventure classes and schools of skills - as in using a skill maxed by class A to gain XP (and learning) in class B. Oh, and you realize that players will use a Blade of Rendering to level classes (as it is equippable based on crafting school also, with proper 1HS or 2HS skill . . . . seen a druid with one pre-merge).

Either way, would like to know about DB's vision of skills being "in focus" or "out of focus" or words to such effect.

Yes, this is moot until DB's vision is made evident to us.
The conjecture is nice. And I do hope this vision is given enough open time (discussion) that it understood what the community at large wants. Not just a focus group.

Perhaps his vision also includes removing the AR "penalty," as some players expect a "fun" rate gaininglevels even knowing that there is slower level gain as the number of classes (and levels) increase - again,a feature of multiclassing in Horizons.

Yes.

[gopher65]

I'm going to reserve judgement until I here from a dev. As I can't be sure exactly what they have planned (if anything), how extensive any change(s) might be, or whether or not I will agree with them, it is too early to comment.

[Guaran]

One thing that would seem to make sense, and perhaps balance things a bit, would be to make abilities un-masterable. Like dispirit foe. if you want to use that stay as cleric, or healer. it should be masterable for the specialty sub-classes that require 20 levels of cleric ( only one I know of for this example is healer requires 20 levels of cleric first ), but not useable by other unrelated classes like mage. Like a directed masterability. Nature abilities that come from a base class that leads to specialty class follow same pattern cloak of thorns useable by the related schools, but not masterable by ALL schools. ( I think that one isnt masterable anyway, just giving another general example).


That logic makes sense. Only a moderate limiting to the existing system. A compensation could be in the form of a bit less rating hit to exp.

Multi-cast would end up limited to just the mages though. Fine with me, my reaver does just fine without it. ( I know that will be a sore point for alot of farmers)

The changes might reduce a farmers effectiveness, but honestly to me don't seem to be make or break for a typical toons capability. The abilities in question tend to be on a timer of several minutes anyway. you spend alot of time fighting without using them as it is. It's not like you don't know how to play without multicast "up".

What should stay in multiclassing: Why we like multiclassing:

The ability to try something new wouldn't be affected. New players who picked a class they end up not liking can switch to something else.

The skills gained in one class which raises base stats like power, strength, hp, aug, spirit, etc. would still stay as you change classes. You could still take 1000 dex from say lvl 100 tailor and get a nice evasion boost when playing an adventure class. To me this is still a good way for one class to benefit another.A good reason someone would choose to multiclass.

Spells stay useable by many classes.


That change to the multiclass system which would really make each class actually have it's "own" useful abilities. Groups with well chosen selection of classes present would become more common, and perhaps more fun. Each player would have a role, a useful ability, to contribute. it is MMO after all. and grouping with friends, making friends is probably what keeps some people around. More reliance on others during group hunt might strengthen the friendships. [hypothetically]

I picture in my mind a hunting group, kind of spread out, surrounding a baddie, each still doing thier "special". It looks fun to me.


David you probably should post at least what your initial thoughts are on the subject, get some feedback.

[Aamer Khan]

Right now we only have a vague comment that seems to indicate "something". What that something is has yet to be spelled out.

I'm all for defining the classes. But I'm worried that the concept may be take too far. Lets use the stats that a cleric gets as an example.

Getting life and augmentation, they are where most players get their heals. With multiclassing, any player, if they put in the work, can augment their primary class in was that help them solo. This is great for the casual player, or the player that mostly crafts and just needs a few defensive skills to continue enjoying the game. So you have a player, that has taken cleric up to have t5 heals. They are also a t5 tailor. How long will they continue to enjoy the game IF life and aug stats were suddenly limited to just healers and clerics?

Now, if we are talking about making group healing only available to active clerics and healers, then it could be a different story. Group healing defines what a cleric or healer is supposed to be. Why should other classes have these skills? Revitalize is a spell that should be available to all. But why should area syphon? What need is there for spirit bolt to a scout?
I agree that things that define a class should not cross over. I do not agree that these possible changes should be so sweeping that it makes solo play impossible, or that it makes it harder for the casual player to have fun.

If we had 20,000 or 30,000 players to work this idea on it would possible be worked out. With so few playing atm, my belief is that it will just serve to hurt an already wounded playerbase.

[Vlisson]

hmm

how old is this interview? Lootable equipment? Blighted Weapons? This is already ingame since month

so maybe the info is real old and not up to date

[Kulamata]

I generally agree. But the distinction between spells and abilities is important, and cleverly applied. Area syphon is an ability, not a spell, so a multiclasser in another class only receives a weak version, II, as opposed to the V of the high level spiritist. And it took level 68 to get tomaster the II. I don't see much wrong with that, and you ain't gonna bring a herd of tier V or VI fyakkis to their bony little knees with that. Mostly it's just fun to use. And frankly, because of the level limits, most transferred abilities are just for variety and spice. Multicasting is the only important example I can think of offhand, and if I lost multi Dark Cyclone...

Statsmay beincreased, and are a separate topic. They really only kick in at the higher levels, so must be really earned. Itdoes not matter if you can whip through the first 30 levels of a new class, it won't affect any stats. I see nothing wrong with better stats earned by more training.

As for thespirit bolt spell,I, as Ranger love it. I use it when Harden Shell bounces arrows, or on an anchor, but very little otherwise. Why? 'Cause I'm a ranger, and even though spirit boltmay domore damage (excludingspecials)I'll always use my bow,'cause that's what Rangers do. (Incidentally, Spirit bolt does impressive damage per shot, but it isslow.) Not all spells transfer; the real Lulu's don't, just as the high level abilities do not. I'd love to be able to use flame bombs, but sensibly, those do not transfer to Rangers.

I used Multi-classing to extend Ranger, as Ranger was intended. Still very few heals, but stronger. A good buffer, now better. A generalist still, not a tank or nuker. If I could no longer be a better Ranger, I would be very, very unhappy.

When players asked for better defined classes, they did NOT mean do so by subtracting, but rather by adding.Adding takes more thought, and is harder to implement, but adding is what is wanted, and perhaps needed. Add more class unique, differentiating abilities. Only low level versions (if any) could be transferred, and there need not even be any granted below, say, 62. That would enhance the game, delight players, and be salable to boot. In fact, current abilities could be transformed. Area Syphon IV and V become Spirit Slurp,withhealthstill stolen,but also some awful thing happens to the baddies for 10 seconds. Crossed eyes, blind staggers, whatever.

One major reason I'm so strongly opposed to messing with multi-classing is that it is very well designed as it is. Clearlyreal thought and thorough polishing has taken place. I cannot believe that it would be improved on the first, second, or third pass. So why overhaul something that works, and if changed will infuriate some players? And with a change that will not attract a single new player? Run an ad "Multi-classing; UNIQUE to Horizons, now with extra nerf"?

[Cobal]

Also on the horiz- list of upcoming changes are player created quests. The quests will be fully featured and created out of game using a special tool.

Well this is interesting.
Would certainly spice up the game if we can layout adventures for each other.
one person writes a quest and guides a group through it, narrating along the way maybe.
Bit like a pen&paper rpg with a DM.

[oluviel]

We sat down with David Bowman, president of Tulga Games, the new owners and operators of the Horizons franchise. Quiet but matter-of-fact, he detailed Tulga's plan to make Horizons a premier MMOG title in the future.

If they did it when he was considered the president of Tulga games it cannot be an old interview.

[Phillip]

"One major reason I'm so strongly opposed to messing with multi-classing is that it is very well designed as it is."

exactly.

[refuse]

One thing that would seem to make sense, and perhaps balance things a bit, would be to make abilities un-masterable. Like dispirit foe. if you want to use that stay as cleric, or healer. it should be masterable for the specialty sub-classes that require 20 levels of cleric ( only one I know of for this example is healer requires 20 levels of cleric first ), but not useable by other unrelated classes like mage. Like a directed masterability. Nature abilities that come from a base class that leads to specialty class follow same pattern cloak of thorns useable by the related schools, but not masterable by ALL schools. ( I think that one isnt masterable anyway, just giving another general example).

This would be like saying that right now, with the addition of the new gold rage ability for dragon spell casters, the T&C version is now limited to the HTH class of dragons.

Oh, sorry if you went through the effort of getting it.
Sorry if you buffed it up through effort (quests).
And sorry if you thought you would have it, but in the interest of "sense" we are removing it.

And actually, in my "sense", I can't see why a skill learned can't be carried over to another class. Case in point, I can't weild any weapon as any class. I do realize that it is a limitation to prevent the best of the best being used, but I forget how to carry a stick (staff) when I am a healer?

I would much rather seem them add things to the classes, to add value, leaving the classes as they are now alone. Add value to be the classes.

That logic makes sense. Only a moderate limiting to the existing system. A compensation could be in the form of a bit less rating hit to exp.

What about all the XP already lost to the current system?
Uh, sorry you can't use the abilities you already have, but you can get more XP in the future. Oh, wait, you are already 100 level. Ok, sorry, but it is for the best?

That doesn't work in y book.

Multi-cast would end up limited to just the mages though. Fine with me, my reaver does just fine without it. ( I know that will be a sore point for alot of farmers)

Hmm. Because your play style isn't the same as another's it is ok to force your perception on them?

The changes might reduce a farmers effectiveness, but honestly to me don't seem to be make or break for a typical toons capability. The abilities in question tend to be on a timer of several minutes anyway. you spend alot of time fighting without using them as it is. It's not like you don't know how to play without multicast "up".

Of course,then again, they did the effort to get multicast as that is something they wanted. They did the time to get the class to the level they wanted, and now "ah, you don't need it".
Perhaps making a better thing for mages to have, and making it not masterable from the get-go would be a better, additive solution.

I picture in my mind a hunting group, kind of spread out, surrounding a baddie, each still doing thier "special". It looks fun to me.

Yeh, if there were still lots of people in the game.
I am in a guild that merged with 2 other guilds. At most 10 people online at a time. Sometimes we get up to 14 on patch days.

This is comming from close to 3 guilds where there were 15+ online from each guild at a time.

That change to the multiclass system which would really make each class actually have it's "own" useful abilities.

Actually they have them now.
The proposal you are suggesting is actually the oppoisite.

"The change to the multiclass system which would really make each class independent (non-transferable) and limit theusefulness of multi-classing." is more accurate.
What you are proposing is keeping the same abilities and restricting their use.

Content through the removal of content?
Or is it balance through the removal of content?

Lets see as a blood mage, my options for quests are:
1) Talk to the blood mage trainer and never get a quest.
2) Level my blood mage
3) Pick a skill in a class, and level the class to get that skill.

Lets remove #3 per this suggestion?

Groups with well chosen selection of classes present would become more common, and perhaps more fun.

You see that many people on the server?

Each player would have a role, a useful ability, to contribute. it is MMO after all. and grouping with friends, making friends is probably what keeps some people around. More reliance on others during group hunt might strengthen the friendships. (hypothetically)

Then again, removing what people have now, without adding to it, might make people leave.

Hey, you mean I spent 1+ years making this character and getting the skills I wanted and now you are taking them away from me?

I guess it would be like if they took gold rage away from all the dragons that choose the mages path. Oh, and Spiked Scales (that is based on primal) the warrior dragons can't have that. I mean, it "adds" value, and dragons of the two preferences would have it's "own" useful abilities. Groups of well chosen selection of dragon classes would become more common, and perhaps more fun". We could then petition to have Armor increases differ between the types of dragons. Why would a spell casting dragon need 8pts of armor per level? It doesn't add to the uniqueness of the T&C dragon to have the spell casting dragon have that.


The logic of removing from a game to add value is baffling to me.

[pan]