article / interview over at Warcry

[Pharcellus]

Then again, removing what people have now, without adding to it, might make people leave.

Then again, leaving it as-is might make people leave, and less people come to play. Who knows?

Hey, you mean I spent 1+ years making this character and getting the skills I wanted and now you are taking them away from me?

If the skills are out-of-balance with the effort spent, then sure. I would expect no less.

When one designs a game system "from scratch", one cannot account for all the ways which the system will be utilized to accomplish ends as a player. All one can do is to define the "vision", and try to remain true to that vision. If the current underlying rule system causes the game to veer sufficiently far enough from the "vision" to be detrimental to the game in the eyes of the designer, then the designer is left with two choices: alter the game system, or alter the vision. Either choice has its own pitfalls and plusses, not the least of which is altering something that is already in-progress, and how the changes will impact the game world and the players. The option to just "start over" everytime an adjustment is made to game rules and its resultant effects on gameplay isn't feasible the vast majority of the time. Also, changing the vision is fraught with more serious kinds of pitfalls, as it can drastically alter the game play experience more than any base set of rule system changes.

I guess it would be like if they took gold rage away from all the dragons that choose the mages path. Oh, and Spiked Scales (that is based on primal) the warrior dragons can't have that. I mean, it "adds" value, and dragons of the two preferences would have it's "own" useful abilities. Groups of well chosen selection of dragon classes would become more common, and perhaps more fun". We could then petition to have Armor increases differ between the types of dragons. Why would a spell casting dragon need 8pts of armor per level? It doesn't add to the uniqueness of the T&C dragon to have the spell casting dragon have that.

If it puts the game back in-line with the vision, I am all for the "nerfs", even as a staunch Dragon player. If it made the game unplayable for me, I would point out why, especially in a situation like Horizons is now, where there is little to no vision, and a very minimalist effort to communicate, understand, and deal with game design issues. However, with sufficient explanation and rational justification, I could swallow it, or at least would try to. I still would reserve the right to throw up my claws and say "screw it" and cancel, just as I expect anyone else would. They cannot please everyone, including me, all the time, so they need to do what they think is best for the game in the long-term.

The logic of removing from a game to add value is baffling to me.

I don't find it baffling at all. When our spiked scales abilities were not overwritten and we were able to use them all at the same time, stacked, it was removed, and it added value. When the flying with a cargo disk issue was resolved by "removal", it added value. Sure, you can point to the fact that they are/were bugs, and unintended, but who is to say that the current multiclassing situation was intended to the degree it exists today, and not a "design flaw" or "bug"? Hindsight is better than 20/20, and that makes past issues like these obvious now, after-the-fact, but a the time, there were no end of people defending them as bona fide intentionally-designed game mechanics.

Sometimes it makes sense to take something away to add value, just as much as adding something else adds value. Those that understand that concept and can take advantage of it make the difference between good game design and management and bad.

[Jaraiden]

refuse, edit and fix your post's formatting. . . . is screwing up Malt's reply.

Both of them - something is off.

[oluviel]

I guess it would be like if they took gold rage away from all the dragons that choose the mages path. Oh, and Spiked Scales (that is based on primal) the warrior dragons can't have that. I mean, it "adds" value, and dragons of the two preferences would have it's "own" useful abilities. Groups of well chosen selection of dragon classes would become more common, and perhaps more fun". We could then petition to have Armor increases differ between the types of dragons. Why would a spell casting dragon need 8pts of armor per level? It doesn't add to the uniqueness of the T&C dragon to have the spell casting dragon have that.

These are different situations. There is no difference between a helian and lunus. Both dragons hain the same points in skills per lvl both are the DRAGON class. NOt DRAGON HELIAN and DRAGON LUNUS. They are factions not classes. The dragon is only comparable to a class like the battlemage. They get both melle and spellcasting abilities.
Moreover there is no such thing as a spellcasting dragon and a melle dragon. We all cast spells and we all use our melle abilities.

The multiclass overhaul is long overdue and just as expected the bipeds are becoming even bigger whiners than dragons, and the nerfs haven't even started!. We don't even know the devs plan and people are complaining and leaving. What is wrong with the system if it is made more realistic and balanced so the game can actually keep attentions of people? How do you think it felt for dragons to spend the same year you did building a multiclassed biped and they can't do a portion of what a you can?

I have a biped too and it made me sick how overpowered the multiclassed system is. Was it hard to level third or fourth class without help? sure, but it doesn't justify the fact that the multiclassed system was way too beneficial.

There is no reason for a warrior, mage,elar, ectto heal even better than a paladin when they muticlassed with cleric, there is no reason for a spiritist to gain every single healing abilitiy as a cleric when they are a mage class. The multiclass system needs to be toned down, and single classes need to be made more viable and even more flexible so we see differences in skills by using some form of training system. Some even need npc pets to make their class viable.
All that can be said is these things cannot bechanged for the betterunder the current multiclass system.

[gopher65]

There are two ways to go about changing multiclassing to be more realistic: Nerfing and Buffing.

Nerfing is exactly what it sounds like. You nerf certain abilities or spells so they are no longer useable by certain classes.

Buffing is a far better approach. You add abilities to each class (using quests similar to dragon quests would be the best way). You then make these abilities unmasterable. Since no one has designed their characters around these new abilities, no one can complain that they are being nerfed; in fact their favorite classes are being added to.

Of side affect of the buffing method is that all characters become slightly more powerful. This has to be balanced by more HP and DPS mob wise, or the game would become unbalanced.

Looking at the situation objectively, the nerfing method is more efficent, faster, and better from a technical standpoint. Or it would be if it had been implemented back in prebeta. All it would accomplish now would be to alienate the playerbase. Hopefully they will choose the Buff method instead:).

[oluviel]

Add stamina and mana.

Make characters choose a mainclass, subclass,subsub class ect.

Your subclass/mainclass ect can be changed at any time.

a. remove rating penalty
b. Mainclass +0 stamina or mana penalty for spells and abilities.
c.Second class+15% stamina or mana for spells and abilities of this particular class.
d. Third class+30%Fourth class +60% ect ect.

The innate bonuses from class to class would remain. But the penalties to use their abilities would be so that it would cost the player to use them. It would make players have to think before casting rather than casting cost free heal after cost free heal and deal a blow to this limitless pool of power multiclassed characters have.

Note it would have to be done to npcs also. I would suggest the general skills I.E. non epic not on a 5 min timer ect, would be based on simple tiered costs that could be the same for everyone.

[Phillip]

i know a heck of a lot of people who love the multiclassing system, and that kept them in game for many more months.

ido NOTknow one single player in this game that quit because of the multiclassing system.

not one.

so please people, spare me the BS.

[oluviel]

The only solution is to balance every npc to be a multiclassed character, and open multiclassing to every pc. I.e. dragons

In the end you are left with every single class being the same able to fill the same role that anyone anywhere can fullfill, and every npc is just as powerfull as every pc. Sounds like a real nice bleak boaring system. No different than every multiclassed biped taking on13 equal level npcs without breaking a sweat.

There is a difference between multiclassing and EVERYCLASSING.
Horizons is an EVERYCLASSING game no good for balance no good for anyone. Especially no good for the longevity of the game.

The only reason why multiclassing has kept people here is it allows for nearly endless leveling for the casual gamer. This would not be removed. Just the warrentless power from multiclassing would be toned down.

The devs may not be all thatgreat at balance,but i doubt they will make such drastic changes knowing full well it will reduce their community even further. If multiclassing is adjusted i'm sure classes at the short end of the stick will be adjusted in the right direction. They have already started doing this if you haven't noticed.

[Joaqim]

Add stamina and mana.

Make characters choose a mainclass, subclass,subsub class ect.

Your subclass/mainclass ect can be changed at any time.

a. remove rating penalty
b. Mainclass +0 stamina or mana penalty for spells and abilities.
c.Second class+15% stamina or mana for spells and abilities of this particular class.
d. Third class+30%Fourth class +60% ect ect.

The innate bonuses from class to class would remain. But the penalties to use their abilities would be so that it would cost the player to use them. It would make players have to think before casting rather than casting cost free heal after cost free heal and deal a blow to this limitless pool of power multiclassed characters have.

Note it would have to be done to npcs also. I would suggest the general skills I.E. non epic not on a 5 min timer ect, would be based on simple tiered costs that could be the same for everyone.

Why not just bring out a complete new game?

And I have to say, you have not much clue about the real farming of T5 Mobs, those 2 Revitalizes are nothing more then a little emergency solution. It's Ethereal Paroxysm and strong armor at high Evasion, what's able to keep you alive if you have 30+ lvl 90+ Mobs on you. No, I'm not lvling that way, as I allways prefered to for higher lvl mobs which I'm justable tokill(and my char is quite finished). Even with farming all the day and getting all I could get from Market Channel I wasn't able to getmylast missing Reaping Potion Form....

Btw. maybe it's just me, but as 152 Rating I expect to be able to compete with a lvl 152 single classed (which is not in game).

[Joaqim]

The only solution is to balance every npc to be a multiclassed character, and open multiclassing to every pc. I.e. dragons

Yeah [Y] go for it. that's what I asked my self in the very beginning anyway, where all those mentioned (tazoon.com) Dragon schools are around...
About the NPC, why not, but take care that the XP is really calculated with the target rating and not the lvl. Btw. some current mobs already feel quite multiclassed with their single mob school....

[oluviel]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]

Why not just bring out a complete new game?

And I have to say, you have not much clue about the real farming of T5 Mobs, those 2 Revitalizes are nothing more then a little emergency solution. It's Ethereal Paroxysm and strong armor at high Evasion, what's able to keep you alive if you have 30+ lvl 90+ Mobs on you. No, I'm not lvling that way, as I allways prefered to for higher lvl mobs which I'm justable tokill(and my char is quite finished). Even with farming all the day and getting all I could get from Market Channel I wasn't able to getmylast missing Reaping Potion Form....

Btw. maybe it's just me, but as 152 Rating I expect to be able to compete with a lvl 152 single classed (which is not in game).

I know plenty about farming t5 mobs. I said nothing about those two heals being the reason people can farm npcs 20 at a time. IO say they are a simple imbalance that shouldn't exist.

You don't understand how powerfull they are because you have them. try a dragon and see what it is like without those two extremely powerfull heals you can cast every 12 seconds or so.

T5 of revit and imp revit teched with 5 recycle and/heal incrase/ potency can be done without spending a single training point just multiclassing. Moreover it can then be utilized by any class as long as they reach the lvl requirement.The result,instant better-than- paladin healing abilities from a non healing class.

It allows for an extreme imbalance between players, npcs, and those without access to multiclassing.

[oluviel]

It's monday 945am on the east coast. The devs are back at work i think it's time we stop these conversations since they are nearly 100% assumptions.

It's time for a dev to respond.SO GO FOR IT :)

[cauri_order]

The article is dated 3/17/05 for whoever asked.

[refuse]

I guess it would be like if they took gold rage away from all the dragons that choose the mages path. Oh, and Spiked Scales (that is based on primal) the warrior dragons can't have that. I mean, it "adds" value, and dragons of the two preferences would have it's "own" useful abilities. Groups of well chosen selection of dragon classes would become more common, and perhaps more fun". We could then petition to have Armor increases differ between the types of dragons. Why would a spell casting dragon need 8pts of armor per level? It doesn't add to the uniqueness of the T&C dragon to have the spell casting dragon have that.


These are different situations. There is no difference between a helian and lunus. Both dragons hain the same points in skills per lvl both are the DRAGON class. NOt DRAGON HELIAN and DRAGON LUNUS. They are factions not classes. The dragon is only comparable to a class like the battlemage. They get both melle and spellcasting abilities.
Moreover there is no such thing as a spellcasting dragon and a melle dragon. We all cast spells and we all use our melle abilities.

During your ROP you choose a path right?
So ther eis a difference, a class perhaps. Or at least a theological seperation. Such as perhaps Sorcerer to mage, or conjurer to mage.
If anything, the fact that the dragon makes a new form for themselves out of the stuff of magic/stone what ever, is a larger distinction then a biped changing class.

Harry: Hey bob, can you dodge this rock?
Bob: Sorry Harry, I am a mage today, I can't dodge the rock. I am not allowed to remember what I learned as a monk.
Harry: Ok, then bob, I will talk to you tomorrow.

The humor here, as in any class based system is that you "forget" what you have learned when you change classes. Things like Spirit adept changes when you change class. This is an artificial game limiter. Nothing more.

The multiclass overhaul is long overdue and just as expected the bipeds are becoming even bigger whiners than dragons, and the nerfs haven't even started!.

Actually Dragons had stuff never given.
This is a take away situation.

We don't even know the devs plan and people are complaining and leaving.

Not leaving, just pointing out that one of the reason people have stayed.

Dragons - Staying to get ancient to see dragons unnerfed.
Bipeds- Levelling classes.

Now the developres are:
Dragons - unnerfing, adding ancient.
Bipeds - limiting multiclassing.

Seems counter productive. Or put another way, add to the game, don't remove.

What is wrong with the system if it is made more realistic and balanced so the game can actually keep attentions of people?

Hold on. More realistic?
UH, dragons, dryads, 1/2 giants, elves, magic, golems. . .

Who's reality are wetalking about?
You perceive it as a good thing. I don't. We will see if it isgood thing.
And why wouldlimiting a person's choiceskeep the attention?

How do you think it felt for dragons to spend the same year you did building a multiclassed biped and they can't do a portion of what a you can?

Absolutely.
So you support this because you have been jilted?

I am totally for removing the cap.
Let bipeds waste time multi-classing while dragons go for 300+ levels.
Let the bipeds that specialize reach higher.

Power through specialization.
Or
Ability through diversity.

All for it. Uncap the game, let dragons and bipeds go as high as they spend time going. All for it. IF a dragon could reach 200, vs a biped who reached 100 in 2 classes, the dragon would have some serious power (100 more TP, 100 more levels worht of stats, 100 levels worth of abilities), the biped would have better stats, but only at 100 level.

I am all for dragons getting what would make them playable. Never here me say they shouldn't.

THe problem here is, bipeds can keep spending XP after reaching the level cap. That is wha people see as a problem. OOh bad multiclassing.

If dragons spent the same XP that a biped did to reach rating 200, the dragon would probably be 300th level (guessing) and if XP/Xp spent the dragon wasn't around equivalent then I would suggest a fix.

But the problem here isn't "multiclassing", it is lack of anything else to do.
Dragon's had to wait, no other choice.
Bipeds didn't, they could just choose another class.

Prior to the merge (when things were still moving) there were not many multiclassed bipeds. Post merge, with the lack of things to do, bipeds started multi-classing.

So is there a problem with multi-classing (didn't seem to be prior to the merge) or is there something wrong with the game as it is now, that promotes multi-classing?

So root cause, is multi-classing messed up? Or is it really that the game has a problem and that should be addressed?

If dragons had 2 classes, many of those who hit level 100 would take the other class for somehting to do. Others would choose to stay pure. The problem is, dragons didn't have that choice. Bipeds did.

[qote]I have a biped too and it made me sick how overpowered the multiclassed system is. Was it hard to level third or fourth class without help? sure, but it doesn't justify the fact that the multiclassed system was way too beneficial.[/quote]
Again, the problem exists where?
In the fact that multi-classing is prevalent now, when it wasn't before? What changed? Look for the root cause and fix that.

Why did people play just mages before? Or just Clerics? Or just.. . .
Why are people multi-classing now?

I will give you 2 reasons off the top of my head:
Lack of players
Lack of things to do.

There is no reason for a warrior, mage,elar, ectto heal even better than a paladin when they muticlassed with cleric, there is no reason for a spiritist to gain every single healing abilitiy as a cleric when they are a mage class.

Youropinion.

"I see no reason for a. . . "
Is what you are trying to say.

Do you see a reason that a person would forgetknowledge when they change classes?
Do you see reasons that a person can't put on armor (even if hte class disallows it) when they change classes?
Do you see reasons that a person would forget how to cast aspell when they change classes?
How about why people forget how to weilda weapon when they change classes?

Heck even Gandalf (ultimate mage) weilded a sword!

(actually too, mages are more limited then just about any other class, maybe warriors).

The multiclass system needs to be toned down, and single classes need to be made more viable and even more flexible so we see differences in skills by using some form of training system. Some even need npc pets to make their class viable.

Why?
What limiting factor would make a class more viable?
They wouldn't be more viable then they are today? Actually, many classes would become less viable.
Monks are allready on the short end of the stick. The healing they get to stay in the game would be gone in your "world".
How about Warriors? A simple debuff from a WA can't be dispealled, or purged, or detoxed. How does that make them more viable?

Oh, because they would be in a group right? Well while I do see groups on now and again, I also see 1/3-1/4 the number of players on. Guilds wiped out, plots left empty and many people gone.

And look at the dragon "cries".
"Dragons need a debuff"
--But don't let warriors do it, it defines the class better.
"Dragons need a Rex"
--But don't let spiritist do it, it defines the class better.
"Dragons need to have more armor"
--But don't let mages do it, it defines the class better.
"Dragons need better heals"
--But don't let monks do it, it defines the class better.

All the arguments dragons have used as of late are valid. THey need these things, as the "game" has changed. Now they are getting these, and kudos to the dev team for adding them to them. But now in the same space of time, we are going to remove these from bipeds?

Hmm.

All that can be said is these things cannot bechanged for the betterunder the current multiclass system.

Actually, it can.
Address the reason for this happeing. If pre-merge it didn't happen, what changed.
Look at the changes being put in for dragons, and evaluate why they are getting them. Is it to compete? Is it because the game changed? Is it because of multi-classing.

If it was to compete: shame on the developers.
If it was because the game changed: then lets find out why.
If it wsa because of multi-classing: then dragons should loose it if/when multi-classing does.


My opinion, the root causes of multi-classing are:
1) Lack of players to group with. Need to cover the bases.
2) Lack of things to do. Hit cap, pick a class. Most classes don't have quests/epics.
3) Level cap. Once you hit the cap you had 2 choices (dragon had 1). Make an alt, gte additional classes.


Now #1 is a function of the game, and in particular #2/#3.
#2 is Tulga's problem 100% and what they changed with the merge. #1 is probably a direct cause of the merge.

#3 can't be fixed by going to 120. That will just increase the problem.

But removing abilities from classes won't fix anything.

If you want to fix multi-classing (my opinion)

1) Make everything > 50th level not masterable (for when cap raised)
2) Make quests to gain class defining abilties. These would be good (make them for dragons too). They will not be masterable. Good stuff too.
3) Make epic spells for each class that can't be carried over to other classes.

Add to the game.

You could almost consider (though it would be week) that ROP and ARoP are class defining abilties for dragons. People play dragons to fly, to breath fire (for good or bad) to be a dragon.

The problem with multi-classing as I see it.
There is nothing that defines a mage (in a good way).
THere is nothing that makes a person pick a dryad over a 1/2 giant.

There are really 2 choices in this game.
1) Dragon
2) Biped.

Heck we even break them down into those categories describing them.

Are you a dragon, or a biped.
Why isn't it dragon, dryad, elf, gnome.

Because they are all the same.

Why don't people play mages. Because there is no reason to.
WHy not stay a blood mage (my class). Because there is no reason too.

Make there be something like ROP/ARoP for bipeds.

Leave things as this.
< 50 generic classes.
At 50, you can take one "masters" quest. one class. This gives you your defining ability.
(You can still level above 50, but chooseone masters quest)
At 100 you take another quest (think of a good name). This gives you another abiltiy, but only in the class you took your masters.

Do the same for races. A dryad quest, a 1/2 giant quest. Something to make the class stand out,more then limited flight, make it have the same meaning as dragon ROP.

For dryads (an example)
limited flight
increased focus
Better dryad dazzle
"real flight all the time", i.e. doesn't drown, no road bonuses use velocity all the time.


But as it is, the bipeds (grouped) are multiclass (again grouped) for lack of definition (my opininon) and lack of content (again my opinion) and lack of players (again my opinion).

All that can be said is these things cannot bechanged for the betterunder the current multiclass system.

My opinion. They can't be fixed without changing something to add definition.

[refuse]

Buffing is a far better approach. You add abilities to each class (using quests similar to dragon quests would be the best way). You then make these abilities unmasterable. Since no one has designed their characters around these new abilities, no one can complain that they are being nerfed; in fact their favorite classes are being added to.

Of side affect of the buffing method is that all characters become slightly more powerful. This has to be balanced by more HP and DPS mob wise, or the game would become unbalanced.

Looking at the situation objectively, the nerfing method is more efficent, faster, and better from a technical standpoint. Or it would be if it had been implemented back in prebeta. All it would accomplish now would be to alienate the playerbase. Hopefully they will choose the Buff method instead[img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img].

Ok better put then my long statement above.

And I would add to this, the changes has to start at the Races. Make each player (1/2 giant spiritist, gnomian mage) feel different for some reason. Some reason to be played.