Is your role playing you? ( David Responds page 4 )

[belezar]

I think just the opposite, that it is HIGHLY appropriate to make real life comparisons to a high fantasy game environment, where they matter to MAKE the game fun and playable. Realistic elements are incorporated into fantasy worlds all the time, and form the foundations of many things people can do.

Thanks for your input. Im saying don't make real life comparisons and use them exclusively to justify a particular position. Why? Because if you are able to suspend your real life assumption about a flying fire breathing dragons or someone casting a fireball, I'm sure you can belive that someone can learn multiple crafter and adventure schools. For me this is totally withing the realm of possibility in a fantasy world.

Otherwise, why have rules? I shoot you! Fall down! No? WHY NOT???

Sure have foundations, I hit you with a sword it causes you damage you can heal yourself, as you level and grow you can absorb more damage and heal yourself more. This does not preclude someone from mastering many schools of craft and adventure.. IMO.

As I have said umpteen gajillion times before, SOME AMOUNT OF REALISM IS REQUIRED TO SUSPEND DISBELIEF. That includes having consistent rules that real-life people can identify with. Remember, you're a real-life person playing a fantasy game. If the game is completely abstract and inconsistent with anything in reality, it will be hard for you to identify with, and thus make the game less "fun". A silly example: Every time you swing your sword at a rock elemental, the only thing that happens is a pint of water appears in your inventory. Cope with that.

I don't think anyone is arguing for complete abstractation of reality. Im simply pointing out that if you can believe in flying dragons and wizards casting firebolts and clerics bringing people back from the dead whats so hard to accept about someone mastering many different adventure and craft schools. I dont think the BEDROCK OF REALISM is being destroyed by players being able to do this. The foundation of the world physics interaction is still there I don't see the problem.

It's not like a multicalssed character can turn water into wine or anything like that they just have options for example do I craft essence or smith. Is my character going to be nuker caster heavy or go for healing.

I suggested a possible solution, apart from taking me to task on abstractation of real life and suspension of belief in a fantasy world care to comment on my multi classing opinion?

/salute

[imported_Twelvebagger]

*

SOME AMOUNT OF REALISM IS REQUIRED TO SUSPEND DISBELIEF.

Wow, you're starting to sound like a magician.


I'm losing it.

[belezar]

The problem to "Multiclassing" isn't that it's unbelievable. I don't think a single person is worried that it doesn't make sense to be able to master many skills.

The problem is that mastering all of those skills unbalances the entire rest of the game. All encounters except a notable few are trivialized to the point of requiring 40 of said enemy to make it a challenge in the slightest...

Balance.

Doesn't exist in horizons where multiclassing is concerned. Every single other game in existance that allows multiclassing has restrictions of one form or another. Horizons does not.

I agree do you think something like the following would help alleviate some of the balance issues. Option 2 would allow people to keep all their classes and mix and match a pre-determined amount of active character classes. So one day you could be Monk - Cleric - Warrior The next day you might be Mage - Druid - Fighter.

1. Perhaps multi classing could be limited to say 3 or 4 classes on one character.
1.1 Less strict would be no limitations on the mix.
1.2 Greater strictness would see branches come in that would disallow certain combinations.

2.Another idea what if they keep the current multiclass system where you can level unlimited classes but then you can mix and match a total of 3 or 4 effective classes from your total class pool. So if I have 8 classes at lvl 100, I can open a dialog box and select 3 or 4 that become my effective class.
2.1 Less strict would be no limitations to the mix
2.2 Greater strictness would see restrictions on combinations.

[Vlisson]

multiclassing is only a problem because of missing content and the lvl cap of 100

i like multiclassing because i never get bored, but you are right!

the mobs are designed to fight against 1 school adventurers

i hope to see soon multiclassed enemies too! Every Mob able to heal itself and cast life leech spells and area damage

the mobs should get the same rights like we ^^

[Pharcellus]

Belezar, do you post in yellow to be annoying? If not, please don't differentiate your text based on color. Not everyone uses the dark color scheme, and it is impossible to read yellow on white without "wiping" it with the cursor.

Thanks for your input. Im saying don't make real life comparisons and use them exclusively to justify a particular position. Why? Because if you are able to suspend your real life assumption about a flying fire breathing dragons or someone casting a fireball, I'm sure you can belive that someone can learn multiple crafter and adventure schools. For me this is totally withing the realm of possibility in a fantasy world.

You misunderstand, hence:

Sure have foundations, I hit you with a sword it causes you damage you can heal yourself, as you level and grow you can absorb more damage and heal yourself more. This does not preclude someone from mastering many schools of craft and adventure.. IMO.

I don't think anyone is arguing for complete abstractation of reality. Im simply pointing out that if you can believe in flying dragons and wizards casting firebolts and clerics bringing people back from the dead whats so hard to accept about someone mastering many different adventure and craft schools. I dont think the BEDROCK OF REALISM is being destroyed by players being able to do this. The foundation of the world physics interaction is still there I don't see the problem.

Nor is anyone arguing for making the entire game an exact replica of the real world.

I have a problem rationalizing someone learning many things to mastery, but no one being able to master any one thing better than any one else. Focus versus diversity. If I study to be THE authority in the world only on a specific topic, how come I can't become that? Why should everyone be able to become THE authority in EVERY topic? It doesn't make sense. To me, that is one of the core precepts of knowledge and learning that this type of game system flies in the face of. Dedication means nothing; diversity is everything. As silly as my rock elemental example sounds to you, the way multiclassing works in Horizons sounds just as silly to me.

The long-term result of this game system is that every character will be every class to max level. If classes could be equated to colors, what we end up with is a uniform grey. I ask again: What is the point of having classes if, ultimately, everyone will end up looking like everyone else?

It's not like a multicalssed character can turn water into wine or anything like that they just have options for example do I craft essence or smith. Is my character going to be nuker caster heavy or go for healing.

I don't have a problem with diversity in theory. It has its place. In the game, we play intelligent sentients modeled after what other intelligent sentients we already know well: human beings in the real world; ourselves. Human beings can be quite diverse in their knowledge and capability. That's cool. However, the guy that spends his LIFETIME studying astrophysics and cosmology can and should beat the pants off of someone who has spent only a part of his life studying same, in that context. Storey Musgrave is an amazing person; he knows a lot about astrophysics and cosmology; hell, he knows a lot about a lot of things, but even he bows to the master, Stephen Hawking, where Cosmology is concerned.

In the game, I have a character who is supposed to be the penultimate healer. That's all he is adventure-wise. However, someone who is Healer/Warrior/Druid/Spiritist/Mage/Conjurer/blahblahblah is better than he is when they are in "Healer mode" (another pet peeve of mine about this system; another thing which screams "GAME MECHANIC!! WAKE UP AND DISBELIEVE, FOR PETE'S SAKE!!!!"), even though he may have just as much experience and play time as they have.

I suggested a possible solution, apart from taking me to task on abstractation of real life and suspension of belief in a fantasy world care to comment on my multi classing opinion?

First, I am not the one that started "taking to task" over an abstraction of real life and suspension of disbelief. When you start the old saw argument of "don't bring reality into the game", that's where the debate is naturally going to meander towards.

As for your suggestion, it has been made already in several forms. I reject it because it doesn't adequately solve the problem, doesn't address existing characters with more classes than the arbitrary limit, and doesn't address my concerns about sensibility. A Healer/Mage/Warrior/Druid is still going to outdo a single-classed Healer. The multiclass will have more HP, will have more maxed stats and skills.

All this, and we have even begun to address the notion of balancing encounters for the players. "Balance it for the single classers!" then the multiclassers waltz over it. "Balance it for the Multiclassers!", then the single classers can't touch it. Sure, we can go with mob abilities that are narrow absolutes that ignore all defenses and affect everybody equally, then everyone says they are no fun because they are too predictable. The devs can't win.

Worse, they know it, too.

[imported_tjl]

multiclassing is only a problem because of missing content and the lvl cap of 100

maybe. but I think even if they raised the cap to 200, the problem will still be here. it will just be adding more levels and stats on what we have now, which is a confused and mixed up system IMO.

the mobs are designed to fight against 1 school adventurers

not totally. try fighting a t5 vexator for comps as a single classes mage, wizard, conj, spiritist, bloodmage, or any other casting class with no melee whatsoever.

[Drevar]

The endless multiclassing is fine for picking up the extra skills and stats and the advantages they give, but it is some of the abilities that are thowing the game out of balance.

Two simple fixes could bring a short term balance to the game until Tulga can go through and revamp the schools properly.
1. Make spirit bolt usable only by active Spiritist, Cleric, Reaver, Blood Mage, Spirit Disciple and maybe Shaman.
2. Make multicast only availablein active Arcane schools, i.e., Mage, Sorcerer, Battlemage, Wizard, Conjurer.

Those two things are the biggest imbalances that I see being"abused" in multiclassing. Nothing irks me more than seeing someone leveling a class and they use nothing but the abilities of other schools to do it, because those abilites are too powerful not to use.

Drev

[AA0]

Despite all these utterly pathetic and annoying arguements about what Dragons stick their big nose in on what mutliclassing should be...
There is one core problem in this game, its not multiclassing, its not the mobs, its none of the skills and getting exp this or that. It is 100% a balance problem.


The devs have changed this world, mangled it to bits. The combat for every class needs a major overhaul, spell lines need completing and the class system must be changed immediately.
Many abilities need to be considered not masterable, the abuse of certain abilities should have been stopped when it was known 6 months ago. No matter what problem happens in this game, it is all due to a horrible combat system that has been abused/ignore by the devs so badly it is the most worthless of any mmorpg out there.

Take our classes, redefine them. Add new abilities for that class and balance them properly. Remove all those class specific abilities that are masterable, and chop off the combat cheats that make people invincible.

Lets make this game combat a little smarter and less mechanical, a mages staff shouldn't be doing more damage then anyone elses actual combat weapons just because the guy was a guardian before. A person shouldn't be able to cast CoT on themselves and heal themselves for 15 minutes straight without ever having to actually fight to gain a ton of loot and exp. A warrior shouldn't be able to use flamebolt or spiritbolt at all, not to mention to actually kill enemies. Take the mechanics out and put in a real feeling for this game.

The bickering over multiclassing and farming and everything will disappear when the mechanics are put in properly again. TG will lose customers if they do this, but who cares, they are losing the game quickly as it is. Change will work, if thought out right.

[Vlisson]

hmm i remember when we all started hz

not even one thought about multiclassing

it took me 4 month to reach 100

after the crimson have been added the lvl 100 popped out of nowhere

then some weeks after the first multiclassing started, why? lvl 100 have been the end so they started a new class and have been able to leech them up

at the marrows every exp have been to important to substain any leecher

i think if the farm places would vanish and the lvl cap would be higher, then all would lvl only their mainclass and want to have fun with their role in their group

Do you remember the first lvl 100 guy? he played on earth, what has he done after he hit the 100? i can tell you: he crafted, helped at events... but no thought about multiclassing

but the exp flow increased and substained the multiclassing

*******************

yes AA0, Tulga has to change the game and will loose customers (if they care about) but they will loose all if they change nothing

i think they work very hard on it (the only reason no WA and no new lvl cap are announced)

[refuse]

The endless multiclassing is fine for picking up the extra skills and stats and the advantages they give, but it is some of the abilities that are thowing the game out of balance.

Two simple fixes could bring a short term balance to the game until Tulga can go through and revamp the schools properly.
1. Make spirit bolt usable only by active Spiritist, Cleric, Reaver, Blood Mage, Spirit Disciple and maybe Shaman.
2. Make multicast only availablein active Arcane schools, i.e., Mage, Sorcerer, Battlemage, Wizard, Conjurer.

Drev

What about heals?
Heals should be limited to only class that can cast them?


I am not sure but it seems that perhaps the problem is that there seems to be 3 major lines in Horizons.

1- Warrior line
2- Arcane line
3- The others

The others get to do things like heal, spirit bolt. . . .
Warriors and arcane don't get all the sexy spells. (I haven't taken any warrior classes so I am not 100% sure, but sorcerer (my arcane class) doesn't get to do much).

Also my .02.

I think raising the limit over 100, and imposing a tougher rating penalty for classes >100 would make single classing more attractive (as well as looking at and finishing the classes). But even if you make it super tough to multi-class, someone will do it, for no other reason then they can.


Going back to the "real world" justifications. I do alot of jobs, I don't forget and I am not limited in doing one job, just because that is my "title" now. So if anything, abilities and spells should be more transferable. Sorry, can't bandage you right now, I am pretending to be a computer engineer. Nope can't write code right now, I am being a manager, let me go talk to my Computer Engineer trainer then I will help you.

Those two things are the biggest imbalances that I see being"abused" in multiclassing. Nothing irks me more than seeing someone leveling a class and they use nothing but the abilities of other schools to do it, because those abilites are too powerful not to use.

Not sure why this bothers you.

Dragon's want Rez because it is important, so bipeds take cleric to get Rez.
Dragons wanted "cleanse" because it is important, so bipeds take cleric to get Rez.
Hellians want a "hellian version of gold rage" so bipeds take mage to get multi-cast/perfect spell.
Dragons want better armor, so bipeds take other classes with a beter AU per level.

An example. I am a 91 level blood mage. I have an AU of 720. That means while I am out fighting T5 mobs, I am can at bets wear T4 armor (Actually I have silk armor, can go up to padded silk now). So I could choose to level a class with 10 AU per level to get the ability to wear T5 armor. Is that bad?

People will do what gives them satisfaction. Some bipeds are single class, because it is important to them. Some multi-class to be part of a group (like me, I want to be a blood mage, but I did healer to help). Some will do it to gain abilities they want. Others will multi-class because there is nothing else to do. If you took a class for a line of spells, you leveled to get those abilities (healing in the case of healer, and rez too).

I am guilty of it. I leveled healer just so I can get enough points to cast T5 gifts. (Lots of TPs to make up what I haven't leveled).

I took cleric so I can rez, followed up with healer.

[Pharcellus]

Despite all these utterly pathetic and annoying arguements about what Dragons stick their big nose in on what mutliclassing should be...

Ah yes, the MORONIC "Dragons vs Bipeds" argument that BIPEDS keep bringing up.

Yes, Dragons need to be looked at as well, but the multiclassing PROBLEMS go far beyond that one issue. This is a core game balance issue that needs to be addressed for all races and classes, not just Dragons.

"But you and Kumu are Dragons and keep bringing it up!" If you take a step back and actually READ what we are saying, we are also PLAYERS, and we speak from that standpoint. I also have a decent biped character, and I speak as much for his benefit as for my Dragon's benefit.

The bickering over multiclassing and farming and everything will disappear when the mechanics are put in properly again. TG will lose customers if they do this, but who cares, they are losing the game quickly as it is. Change will work, if thought out right.

I doubt the bickering will ever stop, no matter what happens. People are already too polarized over the issue to ever come to any sort of truce over the subject. However, I do agree that, for what must be done to fix it, they are going to lose players in the short-term. However, contrasted with losing the game from lack of subscribership that this issue will contribute to in the long-run, I think they will have to act long before then. Yes, change can work, if thought out right.

[belezar]

Belezar, do you post in yellow to be annoying? If not, please don't differentiate your text based on color. Not everyone uses the dark color scheme, and it is impossible to read yellow on white without "wiping" it with the cursor.

No. FYI I am also nuable to read your replys without highlighting your text. The main reason I post in yellow is because I don't know how to quote it differentiates my comments from the person Im replying to.

You have a very strong opinion on the multiclassing issue, one that I don't agree with. I respect that you would like to play the game differently.

I quite enjoy the freedom that current multiclassing offers, I think changes along the lines you propose should fork the project into a more straitjacket based class server and not be forced on to everyone.

I'm of the opinion to either boost mobs if they are less challenging or allow mixing and matching a pre-determined maximum amount of adventure classes with or without class restriction.

[Pharcellus]

No. FYI I am also nuable to read your replys without highlighting your text. The main reason I post in yellow is because I don't know how to quote it differentiates my comments from the person Im replying to.

Use the "Quote" button instead of the "Reply" button and notice the additional text in square [] brackets. You're unable to read the text of yours that I am quoting back to you because I have to force it to be black, and it sometimes bleeds over into preceding or succeeding text because of the stupid PoS editor control.

You have a very strong opinion on the multiclassing issue, one that I don't agree with. I respect that you would like to play the game differently.

I quite enjoy the freedom that current multiclassing offers, I think changes along the lines you propose should fork the project into a more straitjacket based class server and not be forced on to everyone.

I don't think you really understand my position well enough to agree or disagree with it. But, that's OK, you don't have to agree with it, as it isn't important. The devs will have to do something down the road. They are being made aware of the issues, and they are being made aware of ways to resolve them. Yours, mine, theirs, everyones'. No matter which way they go, there will be players miffed beyond the point of quitting, so they need to do the most correct thing that reflects their vision of the game and their ability to attract and sustain enough subscriptions to pay their bills and, maybe, make some money for a change. The only given is that the current situation ain't makin' it, and they know it.

[belezar]

You have a very strong opinion on the multiclassing issue, one that I don't agree with. I respect that you would like to play the game differently.

I quite enjoy the freedom that current multiclassing offers, I think changes along the lines you propose should fork the project into a more straitjacket based class server and not be forced on to everyone.

I don't think you really understand my position well enough to agree or disagree with it. But, that's OK, you don't have to agree with it, as it isn't important. The devs will have to do something down the road. They are being made aware of the issues, and they are being made aware of ways to resolve them. Yours, mine, theirs, everyones'. No matter which way they go, there will be players miffed beyond the point of quitting, so they need to do the most correct thing that reflects their vision of the game and their ability to attract and sustain enough subscriptions to pay their bills and, maybe, make some money for a change. The only given is that the current situation ain't makin' it, and they know it.

I can only understand your position bassed on what you post, though you attempt present your opinion as the one and only solution that will fix Horizons. Based on what you have written I disagree with your position. If you care to elaborate in a cogent manner then I can re-evaluate based on the information you provide.

LOL it's tragic that you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel and dredge out the "fix multiclassing this is what is going to save Horizons" line. This in itself is intellectual myopia and shows a distinct lack of Big Picture thinking.

Seriously multiclassing and the fun that it allows is a HIGHLIGHT of the Horizons experience. There are plenty of MMOG on the market that cater to single classing.

If the devs do a client re-write and it reduces a good deal of lag, would this fix one of the issues? Do you think many people would be miffed at that?

If the devs added more content different monsters, new areas and quests would this help Horizons? Do you think many people would be miffed at that?

But I guess you must be right fix (for want of a better word and assuming it is in fact broken) multiclassing and Horizons will be saved, Tulga will have vast income streams and we shall all sail boldly into the future. [:#] Somehow I don't think so. There a bigger issues than multiclassing to address.

[Pharcellus]

I can only understand your position bassed on what you post, though you attempt present your opinion as the one and only solution that will fix Horizons. Based on what you have written I disagree with your position. If you care to elaborate in a cogent manner then I can re-evaluate based on the information you provide.

I CHALLENGE you to quote where I said that my opinion is the "one and only solution that will fix Horizons". You disagree with my opinion. Fine. So? What more cogent manner do you need me to elaborate in that would cause you to re-evaluate? I pointed to a problem that is acknowledged by more than just myself. I gave my take on it. I don't see any other way to fix it right now that will address all the serious issues that people have pointed out. There may not be a way to address them. However, I am not going to stop trying to find a way to address them, and I am willing to see everything I have sacrificed to have a better game in the long run. How about you?

LOL it's tragic that you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel and dredge out the "fix multiclassing this is what is going to save Horizons" line. This in itself is intellectual myopia and shows a distinct lack of Big Picture thinking.

Beyond the fact that I have never said any such ******** thing, it's sad that people can't discuss subjects without having to resort to ad hominem attacks to get their point across, either.[8-)]

Seriously multiclassing and the fun that it allows is a HIGHLIGHT of the Horizons experience. There are plenty of MMOG on the market that cater to single classing.

You see it as a highlight. I don't. Nor have I EVER SAID ANYTHING about "removing it". Next?

If the devs do a client re-write and it reduces a good deal of lag, would this fix one of the issues? Do you think many people would be miffed at that?

If the devs added more content different monsters, new areas and quests would this help Horizons? Do you think many people would be miffed at that?

What's that got to do with the discussion? Yes, client rewrites and any resulting lag reduction would be welcomed by all. It STILL doesn't address the multiclassing problem, because it is a RED HERRING. Adding more new areas and quests is good, too. Adding monsters has been problematic, however, because of this issue. Yes, the imbalance issue is slowing down release of new challenges, because it is that much harder to balance them.

But I guess you must be right fix (for want of a better word and assuming it is in fact broken) multiclassing and Horizons will be saved, Tulga will have vast income streams and we shall all sail boldly into the future. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-16.gif[/img] Somehow I don't think so. There a bigger issues than multiclassing to address.

Aside from the fact that it has never been compared to "bigger issues" (at least by me), let alone that this thread was already several months stale when you resurrected it, it still doesn't make this issue insignificant to consideration. Nice strawman, though. I'll just wish him into the cornfield where he belongs. [;)]

PS- thanks for being easier on my eyes. [:)]

[belezar]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:I can only understand your position bassed on what you post, though you attempt present your opinion as the one and only solution that will fix Horizons. Based on what you have written I disagree with your position. If you care to elaborate in a cogent manner then I can re-evaluate based on the information you provide.

I CHALLENGE you to quote where I said that my opinion is the "one and only solution that will fix Horizons". You disagree with my opinion. Fine.

Thats the way you come across, you discuss multiclassing in the context of rejuvenating Horizons subscriptions and yet make no mention of other issues, that may be just as if not more important than the multiclassing issue that you dislike so much.

LOL it's tragic that you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel and dredge out the "fix multiclassing this is what is going to save Horizons" line. This in itself is intellectual myopia and shows a distinct lack of Big Picture thinking.

Beyond the fact that I have never said any such ******** thing, it's sad that people can't discuss subjects without having to resort to ad hominem attacks to get their point across, either.[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-43.gif[/img]

I think (my opinion I'm sure many people disagree with me) you have a blind spot in your big picture thinking of Horizons and it's future viability and are focusing excessively on "fixing" (assuming it's broken) multiclassing. I would hardly rate that as a devestating critique of your personality. I enjoy reading your posts because they challenge my view of the game.

Seriously multiclassing and the fun that it allows is a HIGHLIGHT of the Horizons experience. There are plenty of MMOG on the market that cater to single classing.

You see it as a highlight. I don't. Nor have I EVER SAID ANYTHING about "removing it". Next?

Ummm... Short memory? Wern't you talking about REMOVING the ability to do things like cast Multistrike amongst other abilities, which is the one reason many people find multiclassing so appealing? So you remove one or more reasons people multiclass you are by defacto advocating the removal of multiclassing, granted it is your own limited framwork of what you personally percieve to be broken and requiring fixing. It is this framework of perceived problems as seen by you and others who agree with you that I obviously disagree with.

If the devs do a client re-write and it reduces a good deal of lag, would this fix one of the issues? Do you think many people would be miffed at that?
If the devs added more content different monsters, new areas and quests would this help Horizons? Do you think many people would be miffed at that?

What's that got to do with the discussion? Yes, client rewrites and any resulting lag reduction would be welcomed by all. It STILL doesn't address the multiclassing problem, because it is a RED HERRING. Adding more new areas and quests is good, too. Adding monsters has been problematic, however, because of this issue. Yes, the imbalance issue is slowing down release of new challenges, because it is that much harder to balance them.

It's got to do with you discussing "the devs are aware of the issues" and that people would be "miffed" at solutions to these issues in the context of a multiclassing discussion and not offering any suggestions as to what some other issues might be. So I offered some possible "issues" from my perspective and asked the question if people would be "miffed" if headway were made in improving that specific situation.

Point being that the devs can focus their energies on issues that would improve Horizons without alienaiting current happy subscribers.

But I guess you must be right fix (for want of a better word and assuming it is in fact broken) multiclassing and Horizons will be saved, Tulga will have vast income streams and we shall all sail boldly into the future. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-16.gif[/img]" /> Somehow I don't think so. There a bigger issues than multiclassing to address.

Aside from the fact that it has never been compared to "bigger issues" (at least by me), let alone that this thread was already several months stale when you resurrected it, it still doesn't make this issue insignificant to consideration. Nice strawman, though. I'll just wish him into the cornfield where he belongs. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]

I'm just returning to Horizons from EQ2 which has the more rigid approach you advocate. I'm not resurrecting this thread for the sake of it, I read it and found it interesting and I am commenting and giving my opinion on the subject matter, along with all my biases and what I personally find enjoyable.

Now you have had your say in the past and I have read your comments and I disagree with your stance. Who knows over time I may become an advocate of eliminating multiclassing but for now I'm looking forward to having fun by multiclassing what I think is going to be a powerful and more importantly flexible character. Perhaps I can play primary healer or primary tank it's up to me and it's going to be fun.

PS- thanks for being easier on my eyes. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

yw [:)] My apologies for not quoting properly earlier.

This will be my last post on the issue as much as I like the sport of point scoring I think it's quite clear that we are at opposite poles on the issue of multiclassing.

Mabye if you're on Chaos you could help a newb with a formula, tech or two that you might not need [:D]

*waves* [Y][Y][Y]

[Pharcellus]

Thats the way you come across, you discuss multiclassing in the context of rejuvenating Horizons subscriptions and yet make no mention of other issues, that may be just as if not more important than the multiclassing issue that you dislike so much.

Ummm. Well, if you actually read the rest of the forums, you will see that such is not the case at all. I champion a lot of causes to make the game better. This one just happened to be the topic that ended up being discussed in THIS thread.

I suppose if you look at only the posts in this one thread, you might get that impression, but that is quite narrow-minded to assume that I would only post about one thing in one thread, no?

I think (my opinion I'm sure many people disagree with me) you have a blind spot in your big picture thinking of Horizons and it's future viability and are focusing excessively on "fixing" (assuming it's broken) multiclassing. I would hardly rate that as a devestating critique of your personality. I enjoy reading your posts because they challenge my view of the game.

Well, the problem is you are generalizing your issue with my opinion to a supposed "defect" in my personality. It wasn't "your opinion is intellectually myopic", it was "your opinion shows (a deeper problem in you of) intellectual myopia". One is ad hominem, one is not. I didn't take it as anything more than what it was: a cheap shot to disparage me because disparaging my argument apparently wasn't enough.

As for having a "blind spot", again, this is just one thread among many. I have well over a thousand posts in this forum alone. I had well over a thousand posts in the previous forum before this one. I don't think I am the one having problems with "blind spots" here.

Ummm... Short memory? Wern't you talking about REMOVING the ability to do things like cast Multistrike amongst other abilities, which is the one reason many people find multiclassing so appealing? So you remove one or more reasons people multiclass you are by defacto advocating the removal of multiclassing

Wow, nice non-sequitur there. No, making a particular ability non-masterable in no way is equivalent to removing multiclassing altogether. Does it reduce the desirability to multiclass? Maybe; it depends on why someone is doing it. No, it isn't "the one reason" many people find multiclassing so appealing.

... granted it is your own limited framwork of what you personally percieve to be broken and requiring fixing. It is this framework of perceived problems as seen by you and others who agree with you that I obviously disagree with.

Yah, so? Thanks for restating the obvious. It is your own limited framework of what you personally perceive to be OK as it is that makes you disagree. Big deal. You live on your side of the fence, I'll live on my side, and we'll happily toss our garbage over into each other's yard rather than getting rid of the fence and making the yard communal so we have a reason to care about the other side.

It's got to do with you discussing "the devs are aware of the issues" and that people would be "miffed" at solutions to these issues in the context of a multiclassing discussion and not offering any suggestions as to what some other issues might be. So I offered some possible "issues" from my perspective and asked the question if people would be "miffed" if headway were made in improving that specific situation.

Spend some more time reading more than one thread in the forums and stop assuming that this is the one and only issue in Horizons. Clue for ya: it isn't.

Point being that the devs can focus their energies on issues that would improve Horizons without alienaiting current happy subscribers.

Sure they can, and they are. However, this PROBLEM isn't going to go away by ignoring it. It is only getting worse, and it is contributing to the loss of subscribers in a number of ways. One major one is the slowdown in releasing new challenges because of the time it takes to balance them. If my feelings on the issue matter at all, it will probably be the prime reason I finally throw in the towel and drop Horizons into the recycle bin permanently.

I'm just returning to Horizons from EQ2 which has the more rigid approach you advocate. I'm not resurrecting this thread for the sake of it, I read it and found it interesting and I am commenting and giving my opinion on the subject matter, along with all my biases and what I personally find enjoyable.

Firstly, I don't advocate the "EQ2 rigid approach" to multiclassing. I don't know anything about EQ2, and don't care to. I AM advocating a MORE rigid approach to multiclassing than what we have, based on long-standing concepts and concerns (and especially LESSONS LEARNED) from more traditional class-based systems, some almost four decades old.

Now you have had your say in the past and I have read your comments and I disagree with your stance. Who knows over time I may become an advocate of eliminating multiclassing but for now I'm looking forward to having fun by multiclassing what I think is going to be a powerful and more importantly flexible character. Perhaps I can play primary healer or primary tank it's up to me and it's going to be fun.

I'd suggest you keep reading, because you are still missing the point. When you become an advocate of eliminating multiclassing, you'll still find yourself in complete disagreement with me, AS I DON'T STAND FOR IT AND NEVER HAVE. PERIOD. That said, I hope you have fun playing the game however you like. I also hope that the game remains here for you to play it that way.

Mabye if you're on Chaos you could help a newb with a formula, tech or two that you might not need [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-2.gif[/img]

See sig below.

[Tryagain]

Pharcellus don't you ever get tired of championing causes ??

I did that once a long time ago but burned out. So now I am just well kind of hmmm well less than optimistic these days....

Keep it up I guess someone has to do it I suppose.

[Pharcellus]

Oh, I dunno.

I am just too stubborn and don't know when to quit, I guess. [*-)]

Maybe I ought to just throw in the towel and give it up. I have other irons in the fire that are demanding more attention. Who knows?

I suppose I am waiting for the last straw. I know it is out there; I can feel the weight on my back, and I know the pain of that burden.

I'm still occupied, I still have guildmates and friends that I care about and who care about me (I think [:P]). Once I literally run out of things to do, and no one alive knows my name anymore, it will probably be "that time".

Until then, I guess I will just plod along; when I invest, I am in it for the long haul. That means passion, caring, and most of all, fighting for needed change. Maybe it is megalomaniacal to think that I have made a difference here, but that does not factor into my desire to attempt such. I fight for change for the sake of change, and its desired effects on myself and others as confided in and professed to me.

In the meantime, I'll just maintain momentum.