A test and opinion of the test. (There is a question at the end)

[refuse]

Lunus already got the love from the Dev by having EVERY damage dealing abilities to their name. It's time Helians start getting some love too.

Doesn't Spiked Scales work of Primal?

Is 60 points that bad? Well, its noticeable. It makes lunus inferior to helians. By a huge amount? no. But suppose ARoP gives an enhanced path of the lunus/path of the helian with +200 to primal or tooth and claw. If that gets added to base, then that really would be a HUGE advantage for helian dragons.

Uh, which of the above posts is correct?



Ok my opinion.

Yesterday I watched a 97th level dragon tear through 60th level mobs in large numbers. Hellian. By large numbers 20-30 55-60 level mobs at a time.

He actually did it (perception may vary) faster then the normal farming biped as he timed his runs to his abilities. What I am saying is, he did big mob pulls, then little, then medium then big. Was impressive. I have to admit he has focused well, and plans out his dragon considerably. Really impressive to see.

I have started a dragon, going lunus to balance his Hellian, and we were discussing mass farming (a major topic of late on the forums) and could he farm. We picked some numbers and we tried it (I was in my biped to heal/rez incase things went bad).

We decided to do gem golems as the test case.

He is 97th, maxed TPs in primal, rest in power, decent scales (mostly primal/power) finished all his dragon quests (both craft and adv).

T5 - He can handle 3 100th level golems (Ok, we could only get 2 100 and 1 99 in the best case). He could handle 5+ 90s.

Though wolves were a different matter, he was down to 2 90s, and Shiar (named wolf on ice isle) and his two buddies required heals from my biped.

Here he would seldom need to pull out the stops (against golems) to win. Against wolves, it became very close (their first multi-hit from 3 wolves was the key, avoid that and he was safe).

T4 - 80+ He couldn't get enough 80s to really make a difference for gem golems. His down time was minimal, though now and again he needed a breather (I didn't heal unless needed to keep alive, so we were trying to see how fast he could go through the mobs with no help).

T3 - He basically could take on anything he wanted, in about any numbers he wanted. Wolves and Golems.



As a note, when we went to 60th level Ogres, the stuns turned the game around in favor of the ogres. No surprise ther.

Vs WA it depended on the mobs. Wizards at higher levels seemed more dangerous, though shamans seemed to be a conistent danger.


His opinions seem to be:
The big heal in the 90s is the key.
Spiked Scales tied to primal (seems from developer's posts) rock, get all quests.
Finishing his Dragon Gift quests added quite a bit to his battle readyness.
The new freeze breath (again, he hadn't done many of the side quests) was a massive inprovement for helping with groups (slowing/freezing them in place).
Managing what you have vs the situation you are going into. With all his heals and abilities ready, he charged anything. Then depending on what was left, he picked on or two mobs or smaller groups when in the 80s.

The good:
He can beat as many 60th levels as need be.
80s Were relatively easy.
100s were taken in groups of 2-3, though now and again trouble would show up (lucky hits).

Neither good nor bad, or both good and bad.
Heals over time are good/bad. trigger at start, and hope they work, or hold on to them and trigger in the middle of the battle.
Teched spells (we were collecting Emerald frags for him) helped, but took some time to get.

The bad:
Once hit with a debuff he had to wait it out. Hopefully this will change soon.
Lack of armor meant he was hit often. Hopefully this will change with hoard armor changes, and built in armor changes to scales.


What he would do different:
Get his hoard up for better armor (even more when changes go live).
Lower his TPs in primal to only the max he needs for spells. Move rest to STR.

What he found that was strange/not expected:
Claws hit about twice as fast, for about 1/2 the damage of his primal spells. Didn't analyze the damage done.


This was based on observation, his opinion, and my opinion (time vs a multi-classed biped doing the same as we have watched them).

Now that being said, there is one biped that we know that can do better when in the right class. The other classes he has makes him a bit slower. This came about as the three of us were in the same area when the biped was hunting large mobs. The dragon pulled as big a mob if not bigger (flight seems to have helped pulling bigger mobs) and took them down. The biped's class and abilities dictated how fast he could go back in. The Dragon seemed to find the number of abilities he had to use each time.

But the biped usually came out unscathed (Paryoxsm/heals) while the dragon came out wounded, but still within heal time, and quickly recovered. The bipeds class dictated the different abilities he could use, the dragon had to manage a bit more. In the prime class for the biped, the options of spells would mean they had a better variation/time for hunting.


Just thought I would share my observations from the last two nights.

Like I said, I am doing Lunus to balance his Hellian, and we hope to do some later comparisons of the two classes optimized for T&C vs Primal.


On Dragons
My opinion based on my observations of dragons (from my guild, so possibly not a good sampling).

The dragons that focus on doing primal or T&C do alot more damage seem to compete better with the powered up Bipeds. The general dragons, seem to find they can compete at equivalent level, possibly below level depending on their amount of generalization/lack of specializing. By focusing scales to go with "focus" of dragon there is a significant increase in ability.

This is true of bipeds also. But bipeds can gain the multi-classing to require less TPs used.




I think it will be interesting to follow a Lunus through the levels to see what the major difference is between the lunus and my Blood Mage. Already I have more armor then I every had, though the life steeling abilities of the Blood Mage made combat slightly less "close".

177 Days old Dragon, 20th level. So I haven't played it alot.



Now a question to the people still reading this quest. At what level do you think a Lunus can do their RoP alone? I would like to try it with no help to see if it can be done. (Actually I would like to make 100 before becoming an adult, but the urge to fly now has lowered my expectations to doing the RoP for Lunus alone).

[Vahrokh]

Uh, which of the above posts is correct?

For now, Helians and Lunus are equivalent. Only after seeing in practice a tangible difference couple with a lasting huge bonus to primal we can be sure about what's all of this about. Before that it's just wild speculation.
Besides that, RoP was about gaining flight and choosing "The Path of the Lunus / Helian". Nothing says that ARoP will be focused in faction instead. It could as well "just" make the dragon more powerful. Once again, until ARoP is in game all is wild speculation => I would not give it an excessive weight.

Yesterday I watched a 97th level dragon tear through 60th level mobs in large numbers. Hellian. By large numbers 20-30 55-60 level mobs at a time.

That test is not really meaningful, because with so big level difference, the mobs won't deal real damage whatever class is the attacker.
Basically a farm build => a build with areas and damage shield + some healings will anyway destroy them en masse.
An Helian dragon of course will perform good because he won't need healing nor big armour vs those mobs (dragons' weakest features) while he'll area them into oblivion.

Uh, which of the above posts is correct?

For now, Helians and Lunus are equivalent. Only after seeing in practice a tangible difference couple with a lasting huge bonus to primal we can be sure about what's all of this about. Before that it's just wild speculation.
Besides that, RoP was about gaining flight and choosing "The Path of the Lunus / Helian". Nothing says that ARoP will be focused in faction instead. It could as well "just" make the dragon more powerful. Once again, until ARoP is in game all is wild speculation => I would not give it an excessive weight.

Yesterday I watched a 97th level dragon tear through 60th level mobs in large numbers. Hellian. By large numbers 20-30 55-60 level mobs at a time.

That test is not really meaningful, because with so big level difference, the mobs won't deal real damage whatever class is the attacker.
Basically a farm build => a build with areas and damage shield + some healings will anyway destroy them en masse.
An Helian dragon of course will perform good because he won't need healing nor big armour vs those mobs (dragons' weakest features) while he'll area them into oblivion.

He is 97th, maxed TPs in primal, rest in power, decent scales (mostly primal/power) finished all his dragon quests (both craft and adv).

T5 - He can handle 3 100th level golems (Ok, we could only get 2 100 and 1 99 in the best case). He could handle 5+ 90s.

The Helians I knew were pure casters and in an ideal, not melee / multistrike dominated world like Istaria is, they'd use power scales with primal and possibly focus / dragon breath / armor.
What concerns many Helians is the fact that they cannot do this and must be sub-optimal because they must use armor scales, lessening their effectiveness.
The Helian you seem to indicate seems to be one of those using armor scales, and so he indeed survives wolves etc but because he's playing hybrid, not what he'd sport best his skills.

Had he been a pure caster like many I knew, he'd die like no tomorrow.

About the max golem he can kill at a time, the data is consistent enough to what me, a Lunus, experienced myself. Of course that number can grow using specialized scales, up to 5 x golems 100 with no hoard usage.

What you forgot to mention is the need to cast refreshing breeze to survive that number of golems, and this is an instant "self nerf". In fact, "farming" means fast killing stuff (numbers over quality) and he'll have to wait 5 minutes before said ability recycles.
My dragon kills XX mobs and has a "cooldown" of 5 minutes before returning "efficient" again.
My sslik kills XX mobs and has an average of 7 seconds of cooldown till heals recycle or about 15 seconds when he has to afford a big battle.

The good:
He can beat as many 60th levels as need be.
80s Were relatively easy.
100s were taken in groups of 2-3, though now and again trouble would show up (lucky hits).

80s are relatively easy until you confront with true mobs. Sure, basic mobs go down well with generalistic dragon abilities, but get some shaman (even level 60 is enough) and the dear lizard will have an hard time. And possibly be incapacitated and stay debuffed for 5 minutes. And this even with level 60 mobs.

My SSlik (thanks to having a multiclassing model that stacks bonuses to no end) casts a fast cleanse and he's as good as new.

Hopefully this will change soon.

Now that being said, there is one biped that we know that can do better when in the right class. The other classes he has makes him a bit slower. This came about as the three of us were in the same area when the biped was hunting large mobs. The dragon pulled as big a mob if not bigger (flight seems to have helped pulling bigger mobs) and took them down. The biped's class and abilities dictated how fast he could go back in. The Dragon seemed to find the number of abilities he had to use each time.

I still have to experience being faster than a biped in kills per minute.
Skilled bipeds are in game and they do know their business.
Of course, avoiding gimped classes is a given, but since this analysis seems to be "kills at a time" oriented we have to suppose we are dealing with experienced players.

The dragons that focus on doing primal or T&C do alot more damage seem to compete better with the powered up Bipeds.

Never met an Helian that could outdamage a good or even a decent biped build. And Lunus for many foes at a time would be even worse if they were only melee and they had not gold rage to be used as it recycles.


An Helian dragon will be able to perform truly definitive tests when scales will get inherent armor and thus he'll be able to optimize them for damage.
A Lunus dragon is not completely melee, so there's not something like "Helian vs Lunus". I am Lunus with 1200 unbuffed, naked primal skill and I can rival easily with Helians and still deal about 5-10 less damage a hit less than the best specialized Lunus.
(I actually play like a druid - I don't use prime bolts but just areas - using spiked scales to deal much more damage than I do).

I think it will be interesting to follow a Lunus through the levels to see what the major difference is between the lunus and my Blood Mage.

Not sure you can compare to a bloodmage directly.

I see dragons being more comparable to mages (pure Helians or more appropriately pure casters), to warriors (pure melee) or druids (area happy ones).

Now a question to the people still reading this quest. At what level do you think a Lunus can do their RoP alone?

Possibly you'll need to be about level 90 and use gold shield in some instances.

[refuse]

80s are relatively easy until you confront with true mobs. Sure, basic mobs go down well with generalistic dragon abilities, but get some shaman (even level 60 is enough) and the dear lizard will have an hard time. And possibly be incapacitated and stay debuffed for 5 minutes. And this even with level 60 mobs.

Absolutely.
Thus my comparison with Ogres (a tough class) and Shamans (debuffing, blighted class).

We decided on Golems as they are pretty basic, don't evade like spiders, usually have good numbers, and don't do alot of things that need to be cleansed (They do bleed).

Against other mobs the variation on who you are really matters. We used wolves probably one of the harder non-stunning mobs). And the numbers drop. We knew this would be a problem for the dragon (vs a biped with detox/cleanse) as they do wound that keeps doing damage.

My SSlik (thanks to having a multiclassing model that stacks bonuses to no end) casts a fast cleanse and he's as good as new.

Hopefully this will change soon.

Agreed, this was part of the discussion on why to do it now.

I still have to experience being faster than a biped in kills per minute.
Skilled bipeds are in game and they do know their business.
Of course, avoiding gimped classes is a given, but since this analysis seems to be "kills at a time" oriented we have to suppose we are dealing with experienced players.

A biped as a mage, or as a more limiting class is slower then in one of the "wide open classes".

When the biped friend is in spritist or Shaman, most/all the farming spells are available to him (Paryosym, Dark Cyclone, Rising Phoneix, Heals, roots). In some of the other classes he is limited in the choice of the big abilities.

The two players were killing as many mobs as they can as fast as they can to validate a point. The biped wasn't in the best of classes, but we have seen him with his spells all lined up. And yes, the Teched spells for a biped (paryoxsm) just can't be beat, along with the detox. The dragon used breezes and AoEs along with spiked scale to keep up. Again, againt the optimal, the Dragon was slower, against the (what we considered) average, the dragon held their own.

Never met an Helian that could outdamage a good or even a decent biped build. And Lunus for many foes at a time would be even worse if they were only melee and they had not gold rage to be used as it recycles.

We were considering Lunus as a worse "mass" killer, and thus my refocus on bringing the dragon up. The T&C and abilities in general seem to weigh in as a single target killer.

And the biped "field of spells" (i.e. nature/spirit/flame/ice) not being on the same timer allows the biped to cast the best of each and usually be "recharged" by the time they have all been cast once. So yeah, the biped is a damage producer.

An Helian dragon will be able to perform truly definitive tests when scales will get inherent armor and thus he'll be able to optimize them for damage.
A Lunus dragon is not completely melee, so there's not something like "Helian vs Lunus". I am Lunus with 1200 unbuffed, naked primal skill and I can rival easily with Helians and still deal about 5-10 less damage a hit less than the best specialized Lunus.
(I actually play like a druid - I don't use prime bolts but just areas - using spiked scales to deal much more damage than I do).

Will be interesting to try it. I do understand the varience is small, so should be a good test (just have to catch up to his level)

Not sure you can compare to a bloodmage directly.

I see dragons being more comparable to mages (pure Helians or more appropriately pure casters), to warriors (pure melee) or druids (area happy ones).

Understandable, but it is the only major class I have played, so it will be my comparison.

As I took no warrior/fighting skills in my main, this is at total opposite kind of comparison for me.

Heck, I still fight in my cargo armor as a 72 level blood mage! (Kenaf armor too, as I don't have any craft in the 50s)

Possibly you'll need to be about level 90 and use gold shield in some instances.

Thanks for that.
I will see how far I can get when I start alone. Will try to update now and again.

[Varangaard]

Now a question to the people still reading this quest. At what level do you think a Lunus can do their RoP alone? I would like to try it with no help to see if it can be done. (Actually I would like to make 100 before becoming an adult, but the urge to fly now has lowered my expectations to doing the RoP for Lunus alone).

That depends, I would say. I'm dropping some names and spoilers next so if you don't want to know about it beforehands, skip to the last paragraph.

For a lunus, there are five noteworthy foes on the Rite. The easiest of them should be the crystalline golem, should be soloable by any dragon at the same level range.

Then there is Lem the Cold; because you have the phylactery when you face him, mowing him down at his level (60) - with good scales - shouldn't prove to be a problem. Lem has guards yes, but they always seem to be weak undead well beneath his level (last time I saw him, it was 5 pale hatchlings for guards).

The Entombed will is a problem due to the amount of its health. I have tanked him easily enough as a lvl 100 adult, and as the difference between an adult and hatchling is nonexistent, this should be doable to a RoP:er too. You'll be hitting the breezes and primal instant heal during the battle.

The Shadow Dragon has seven hundred thousand health, so wearing that one down, even with the phylactery, is going to be tricky. The scale pretects you from the kill ability, but you will be subject to powerful melee attacks. You'll need to dance around and kite the guy, healing yourself at every opportunity. Phylactery is a ranged weapon, use that to your advantage.

Finally, we have Kaa the Shade. While the guy itself isn't too big of a problem - phylactery at work again - the Spiral is a passageway of death. Full groups of powerful people have gone down there and been slaughtered to the last Living. The respawn rate down there is incredible. You can bypass most of the Spiral by climbing over walls at the right places, but even there near the bottom you can run into a snag, aggro some undead, and even with full team never kill them faster than they respawn. Further, unless you catch Kaa precisely at the time of respawn, he is going to have undead guards of lvl 60-80, up to five of them. And that is impossible odds to any dragon.

So one could say it depends on your ability to pull, and extract a boss from his group. If successful, and you're able to pull the abovementioned guy to a secluded place, you should be able to beat him down. Facing the challenge head-on as solo is sheer murder. Disregarding adds and considering the named only, everything should be doable at least on level 100... with a little luck. [;)]

[Vahrokh]

The only hard spots as Lunus will be:

- Outsmarting Kaa, i.e. skip the mobs possibly using the shortcut (I did not at my time - did not know there was one so I brought my proud 41 levels thru the spiral mobs, only buddy being another hatchling I found there by chance).
The winner was having speed teched scales and several potions I used to buff in everything.

- Dodging the mobs 120 to go kill Lem, usually easy since you can just jump off the walls on him a la Aliens and single shot the bugger.

- Surviving Entombed willand expecially Esh- it could take a lot of time and gold shield and possibly a truck of heal potions.

- Killing Shadow dragon should be pretty easy if you keep defenses up and keep healing.

[refuse]

Thank you both.

Ok, so I have a long wait, and possibly will need to be near 100 to do alone anyways.

Looks like my plan of not taking any primal is a bad plan.

I will have to find the shortcuts and take at least a few runs at Lem alone (time to get my confection up and some Ambrosia ready it seems).

[Raptress]

Slight problem, if I remember correctly, Varokh...Don't only adults have the Shield? ^_^;;

[Guaran]

Esh and Entombed are the toughest for Lunus. Esh is a reaver so he will suck out alot of your health at first. by the time his tough syphon recycles, refreshing breeze recycles, Entombed has 50k hp so he takes time. For these you can do ok once you get tier 5 scales. 80s or higher.

Kaa and Lem can be one shotted at approximately level 50. Gift of speed plus a speed potion, and a hotkey for select kaa, he's toast. ( jump over side of wall at n.e. corner hit sprint, never look back or stop until all the way at bottom of spiral in the structure, run right to kaa and use phy). Of course both esh and entombed will have to be done before Kaa and Lem.

For lunus craft level 24, and 5 granite crafting scales is sufficient. power with transmutation and stoneworking. strength with scalecrafting and smelting. The transmutation skill is the kicker, since the item crafted uses transmutation skill, but a stoneworknig pedestal. So shop bonus doesn't help there. If you get adv high enough, might be able to knock a level or 2 off on the crafting.