The need for in game support staff. ( NM appears to be not wanted atm )

[Aamer Khan]

For awhile now, David has been working on a rework of the tutorial islands, and the beginner game experience. This of course, is a wonderful idea and hopefully will be quite helpful to the newbie player. From what I understand, ( and please correct me if I'm mistaken ) most of the training will be in the form of quests, that lead a new player around getting them to participate in various activities that show them how to play effectively in the game world.

This will be great for those that have the love of quests, and patience to work through the beginner quests. However, what about those that blow past the starter island, and move to kion oe sslanis? The only way I can see preventing this is forcing the new player to complete the starter quests, before allowing them to move on to the main game world. I can't see this happening, since many players may start an alt, and not be willing to plod through things that already know well.

With those thoughts in mind, my assumption is that many will breeze past the tutorials, and hit the mainland very quickly, without getting the benefit of the tutorials. So, what can be done for these players?

For the last few months, many of the veteran players have been serving the purpose of "ingame staff". There are many that regularly will take a new player by the hand, and will explain the world and how to function in it. This includes where to find mobs, how to make money, what the tiering systems mean for them, etc...

What is we had assigned players that acted as the greeting commitee? They could ask the new player if they have done the tutorials, and direct them to the best way to get information and guidance. They could be available to provide tips and hints on how to advance. Actually, there are a lot of things they could do.

Before, it has been suggested that the main reason for not doing that in HZ is that it requires oversight by the devs and would take too much manpower to be of value. Others say that since we do it already, why should TG bother, since we will take care of it anyway?

How 'bout this...

TG provides some basic guidlines for us to follow in performing these duties. Open a new forum where ingame trainers can discuss and provide feedback to the developers any trends they are seeing and how they could be addressed. Allow players to signup for this duty voluntarily, and clearly define what they should do and not do. Now, the only thing the devs need do is monitor the boards and once and awhile check on the trainers ingame when they login to play... ( like they do everyday, right? ) It would be no more time consuming than reading the boards which it's obvious they do anyway.

Would this work?

Is it needed?

Would you want to help?

_______________________

What do you think?

[Hasai]

....With those thoughts in mind, my assumption is that many will breeze past the tutorials, and hit the mainland very quickly, without getting the benefit of the tutorials. So, what can be done for these players?....

Other than putting up a big billboard stating "You better do the tutorials first!!" next to all the off-island portals, I can't think of very much. Not as long as people continue to believe they have a God-given right to act unintelligently (aka twits).
[st]

[Aamer Khan]

Are you a lawyer?
Not being disparaging, but what are you actually basing this this on?

Vague rumors that it is illegal is silly. Actual portions of the law as references, showing clearly how it is illegal would be better.

Plus, reason a second. Are board mods, ( volunteers that do not get paid, but "work" for TG since they own the boards ) Illegal?

If you feel this is a bad idea, state the reason why. To create unfounded fear is just FUD.

If it turns out to actually be illegal I'll back away from this idea totally, if not do you think it could help?

Additional Information:

In doing some research for this idea, I ran across numerous online games with volunteer ingame support staff... ( ARK program in AO come to mind ) where they volunteers acknowledge that they are not EMPLOYEES and do not receive compensation. This is done quite successfully elsewhere and could be done here.

[imported_Lycaunoss]

Are you a lawyer?
Not being disparaging, but what are you actually basing this this on?

Vague rumors that it is illegal is silly. Actual portions of the law as references, showing clearly how it is illegal would be better.

Plus, reason a second. Are board mods, ( volunteers that do not get paid, but "work" for TG since they own the boards ) Illegal?

If you feel this is a bad idea, state the reason why. To create unfounded fear is just FUD.

If it turns out to actually be illegal I'll back away from this idea totally, if not do you think it could help?

I don't believe that it's illegal but there was a class action lawsuit over UO player volunteers that was settled by paying them for lost wages. The end result is that for-profit companies will not accept volunteer workers.

[Aamer Khan]

The statement that no for-profit company uses volunteers is also not true Lycaunoss.

It strikes me as odd that you guys would jump to try and create doubt so quickly.

Is it that you don't want players to help improve the experience of the new player?

[Altair]

I will have to disagree with you aamer. I dont see a problem with keeping it the way it is. This way the people who do want to help them out do. Rather then have people "voluntier" for the jobs just so they can have "input". And as far as it being or not being Illegal.... Who cares. From the technical stand point "If it aint broke, don't fix it"; In other words if it already happens now why try and "Fix" it?


Altair Argannon
EoI

[imported_Lycaunoss]

The statement that no for-profit company uses volunteers is also not true Lycaunoss.

It strikes me as odd that you guys would jump to try and create doubt so quickly.

Is it that you don't want players to help improve the experience of the new player?

Actually I was being a little broad in my statement. What I should have said was that no for-profit game company uses volunteers. I also believe that this only applies to in-game volunteers as that is viewed by the American legal system as work. I'm sure if you do a search you will find some information about the lawsuit. Shortly after it came to be all companies that had online volunteers cancelled their volunteer programs.

I'm not trying to create doubt. Actually I like the idea of in-game support volunteer or otherwise. I'm just telling you why they won't do it.

[Aamer Khan]

This was just a conversation in IRC on this subject.

<AamerKhan|ChaosHerald> Morning David. :) Question: Whats your stance towards players volunteering for ingame help in Horizons?
<tramsan> I think a clarification might help, Aamer
<AamerKhan|ChaosHerald> like what tramsan?
<tramsan> What kind of help, and how?
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<AamerKhan|ChaosHerald> assising new players that decide to bypass the turorials on the starter islands... following guidlines that TG provides to redirect them
<AamerKhan|ChaosHerald> the actual questions would be, would TG ever use volunteers for ingame roles, is it viewd by TG as legal?
<AamerKhan|ChaosHerald> ( better? )
<tramsan> better ;)
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<tramsan> Typo in one of the blighted techs... "Devistating" (probably a tech that gives % to deal maximum damage)
<AamerKhan|ChaosHerald> :( I always ask too big of questions... no response David?
<tramsan> hehe, David might be busy checking up on the khutit->dragon discoloration bug
<AamerKhan|ChaosHerald> ahh
* AamerKhan|ChaosHerald quietly sits back to monitor and continue doing RL work ( for money ) :)
<tramsan> pfesh, don't remind me
<David-Lurking-Working> sorry, was sculpting Werewolf island. Any compensation for ingame volunteering, especially if there is any scheduling involved would be prohibited. This includes special abilities and/or account compensation.
<tramsan> compensation wasn't the issue =)
<tramsan> I think he was asking, basically, if you'd be willing to set up an official helper system some time
<David-Lurking-Working> Ah, but it is. That's how EA got sued. Free accounts, special priviledges led to a belief that the "volunteers" worked for EA.
<tramsan> Yes, it's -an- issue, but not what Aamer asked. =)
<David-Lurking-Working> I had one at Turbine, I believe in them. But EA, Sony and MS all turned them off due to the litigation.
<AamerKhan|ChaosHerald> actually if the players sign of on NOT getting paid in any form and are not considered employees?
<AamerKhan|ChaosHerald> sign off*
<David-Lurking-Working> Having a Help channel, and a Help status in game for those who wish to provide assistance has worked in the past.
<David-Lurking-Working> But it can lead to abuse if not overseen.
<AamerKhan|ChaosHerald> so the answer is NO TG will not be using volunteers ingame for any purpose... right?
<Tzael> The Realm Online still employs a volunteer system with courtesy accounts, and it has done so for over 8 years. There must be some way to set up such a system safely without fear of legal action from the volunteers considering The Realm Online is also operated out of America and hasn't hit any issues ?
<David-Lurking-Working> That's not what I said :-). We will when we have the ability to oversee it. That is part of the role of community manager, which I haven't got funding yet for... I'm working on it now.
<Rhaiannon> if i crash, ill brb
<AamerKhan|ChaosHerald> what about AO's ARK program?
<Tzael> I'm not actually for a volunteer system due to abuse I've seen in other games, all I'm saying is that it must be possible without the company operating the game fearing for legal action
<Rhaiannon> david, what of the new object system, care to explain a bit about that?
<David-Lurking-Working> We never got sued at Turbine either.. and we had a good volunteer program, but MS pulled it. It just requires dilligent management and review for abuse.
<David-Lurking-Working> I need to put some monsters on the island, be back a bit later
<AamerKhan|ChaosHerald> ahh ok.. thats better news... thanks for clearing that up a bit. I believe it could be very helpful and give vet players more opportunity to be useful

[Nosdracir]

Here's a link to a blog with a short entry with more links if you're truly interested UO Lawsuit. It all boils down to the fact that the minimum wage laws require for-profit companies to pay their workers and pay employer-side taxes and withhold income tax etc. If Tulga were to even mention volunteers it might open up a whole can of worms.

We players (customers) can do whatever we want in this regard, but we have to do it on our own. (IANAL. YMMV. TANSTAAFL. IATVMOAMMG.)

Edit to add: Of course, while I'm figuring out how to make the link work Aamer posts IRC chat on the subject. Oh well. I'll still stand by my acronyms.

[LaughingOtter]

Great idea, but it won't fly because of the case law on the issue. Even signing contracts stipulating all such in-game work is voluntary and uncompensated won't work, because a contract cannotvoid your rights under the law.

Which is too bad...

[imported_Denrath]

AOL hada smiliar lawsuit hit the same time for the same type thing. In the end it would depend on the volunteers. If they were happy with the no payment and didnt take it to court, then things would be fine. But it only takes 1 to screw the whole system.
And I think part of the UO/EA lawsuit was their volunteers had to keep specific hours, and do so many events a week. Was more like another job than going to the old folks home for their bingo night or something.

[Vlisson]

interesting and good idea

if the volunteer system is illegal than Tulga could pay 1 month for example of gametime and the volunteers make a dontation back?

[LaughingOtter]

It's not illegal; the issue is that players in this type of position were found to be employees and were due wages for their time.

I'm glad to hear David is open to finding a way for it to work, because in-game guides would be very handy. I'm not against it by any means; I like the idea, in fact. I'm just pointing out a significant issue which complicates matters greatly.

[Aamer Khan]

From the chat in IRC today, Davids, comments, the majority of those willing to comment, I have come to the conclusion that everyone is either fearful of it or just doesn't want this kind of thing.

So be it.

Im not going to post in this thread nor forward this idea at all.

I will pass on an idea mentioned in IRC.

That of having a "advocate" flag any player could turn on that would show they are willing to help answer question. This would only be visible during a player shearch like LFG.

My only concern is that abuse issues arise from this idea, since an abusive player could turn this on, and direct players into dangerous situations beyond their levels, or even pose a an official of TG and require a player to reveal password or account information.

Without a level of trust in place or oversight from TG, then abuse could happen.

I will wait to see what David has in mind for the "Community Manager" he spoke of.

[LaughingOtter]

My only concern is that abuse issues arise from this idea, since an abusive player could turn this on, and direct players into dangerous situations beyond their levels, or even pose a an official of TG and require a player to reveal password or account information.

I think that kind of abuse is quite possible, hence David's comments on oversight being needed. I also think the idea has support, but that there are issues which would need to be addressed before it could be implemented.

The "Guide" flag sounds like a good idea, but I think a number of the same issues might crop up. It's worth working on and keeping in mind.

[Seikojin]

:o
Another thing to consider is representation and abuse... As soon as someone gets into the seat of any kind of authority there tends to be an aire of abuse they can bring.

The Community manager idea is prolly the best one, which I am hoping is just another word for GM. In game support staff would be really useful for those new to the game, and those who say get stuch and cannot recall (like is Lagzoon after a few ports).

Plus GM's can bring in reports of new bugs, so maybe testing will benifit from this as well...

[Kaze]

I know this is off topic for this thread, but what did DB mean by he's working on werewolf island? Is this ingame or part of a new feature?

[refuse]

I know this is off topic for this thread, but what did DB mean by he's working on werewolf island? Is this ingame or part of a new feature?

Funny that is the part I focused on also.

[Stranyr]

I would think it's something new since he said he had to place the mobs :)

[Khoal]

WW Island? That sounds interesting.

Is it an island of werewolves, basically an island for some particular tier of mob and player?

Or (speculation, and only speculation) are werewolves to become the next race to be freed? Could the WW Island be akin to the Satyr Isands?

Are there any other MMOs out there that have werewolves as playable races?