is to be Ancient for everyone or only for "dragon only" players?

[Vlisson]

hiho

there is a discussion about the AROP requirements
there are discussion about the power those players want to get if they are ancient

my simple question is:
should the ancient be rare creature? should everyone easy get ancient?

or only the players who played dragon every time as a main, not powerleeched...

this would disallow all casual players from getting ancient!

my personal view is that an ancient should get rare. the quest to get ancient should be real difficult and should last at least 2 weeks

it would be better for menot to become ancient than to see dragonpopulation like this:
60% ancient 30% adult 10% hatchling

what do you think about this sensitiv thing?

[Vahrokh]

I think that ancients will be the majority of dragons.

A 2 weeks long quest like you hope to have won't stop really anyone.
With the sore lack of content in the game and ARoP providing good content all will have even more motivation to try and become ancient.

Furthermore, since Hz has no instances, nothing will prevent having 10 dragon altsparked near the hardest ARoP bosses ready to be logged in and awakened when a friend needs to kill them (no game check can exclude a player to go link dead and relog when another is already in the same place). True, an ARoP boss could truly test the worth of a single dragon, but when he has 10 friends with him it is completely spoiled.

Plus all will enter ARoP with tier V buffs to enhance them (and will "come out" to get then refreshed) etc. etc.

Don't think I am slamming a good quest. I just happen to know how many would never admit it but are already thinking hard on how to cheat the entire quest.

Don't believe? Then look at how much people work hard to seek out every smallest game hole to exploit it.

[HAG]

Hmmm, as an pure biped-player (hell, my little draggy is lvl 7!) my opinion is:

Make it as hard as possible to get Ancient!

Why? Easy...

As dragons don't have same possibilites as bipeds in way of multiclassing, the majority (?) of the ones being 100/100 only stood in game, waiting for lairs and AROP. At least that's what i get from talk, dunno if i'm right.

So what will happen if every playing dragon is Ancient? Will they stay in game any more? Will they be able to keep up the motivation if they have reached the top of the top?

I really doubt it...

[Vahrokh]

Well after reading that a guy did 30% of Blight ARoP in 3 hours... I don't know what to say. [:'(]

[Vlisson]

30% in 3 hours :(

ok its a fast quest then

maybe its the best all allowing to get ancient even if they are no full dragon player (meaning 5 ingame days or less)

[Nisse]

I don't know about that speed. I just spent more than an hour looking for a mob to kill I needed for ARoP. He isn't spawning on Chaos either...

[Fireclaw]

30% in 3 hours [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-6.gif[/img]

ok its a fast quest then

maybe its the best all allowing to get ancient even if they are no full dragon player (meaning 5 ingame days or less)

The ARoP appears to be divided into three main parts. Only a fraction of the first step is actually on Blight shard (maybe as little as half the first step or 1/6 of the ARoP). That is the part that I did in three hours. Of course this is speculation assuming that each of the three parts would take equal time and assuming that there aren't additional steps after the 3 parts are completed.

For the part I did do, I got very lucky in my timing as I had virtually no waiting for any of the 4 boss mobs I had to kill. Most of the players on Blight had much more waiting as they either came in early when the first mob wasn't spawning for some reason, or came in after my group had already slain the first mob and were waiting for it to respawn. Still if you knew exactly where the mobs spawned and had no waiting when you arrived you could probably complete the existing portion of ARoP in one hour assuming you were with a group.

[Goriax]

Ancient should be available to anyone who plays their dragonto the end game (i.e. high level). While playing to the end game should require a certain amount of commitment, it should not be such a ridiculous amount that having a family or job precludes a person for getting there.

It is not for you or meto declare that THIS or THAT character is a person's main. It may not even be the one played the most -- they might have started out playing one character a lot, then dropped it for another.

By powerleveling I assume you mean using exploits to gain experience far faster and with less effort then intended. Powerleveling exploits need to be removed from the game regardless of AROP. It shouldn't beok to powerlevel as long as it doesn't lead to the ARoP but not ok if it does lead to the ARoP. It's either right or wrong period, I think it's wrong.

If you're going to say that the only way that casual players can qualify to be ancient is to powerlevel then you also need to define casual player. However, I happen to think that many casual players should be able to achieve ancient if they stay at it.

Near as I can estimate, I'd fulfilled all the requirementsto startthe AROP by the time my in-game /played time was in the vicinity of 45-50 days. This was most definately NOT using any experience exploits. I'm certain many people did it in far less time. I got most of my experiencesimply by soloing the toughest mobs I could find which I could handle without using a lot of gold rage/gold shield. I did it that way NOT as some sort of experience optimizer, but because I found it the most fun. I liked a challange. Others (you know who you are) used abuses such as the old cursed wolf quests a LOT for cheap experience.

Anyway,45 days/played averages to around 20 hours playing time per week if done over one year. By extrapolation, I'd expect someone who played 10 hours a week to make it in two years. I think that by most definitions, someone who only plays 10 hours a week is a casual gamer. I think 2 years withinthe acceptable time needed to achieve ancient status.

Perhaps the world would have better "ambiance" if there were few ancient dragons, but then we start picking and choosing who gets to be one of the priviledged few.When that happens the result is usually to start toughening up the requirements. For something as popular as ancient status will be, the result would be to onlylet no-life powergamers get to be ancient (i.e., people with no school, job, or family who only play games all the time). While one can build a game aimed at no-life powergamers --and in fact many have -- that has never been the aim of HZ. In fact, if HZ or any other MMORPG only had hard core powergamers as subscribers, it would most likely fold in no time.

In short, anyone who plays to the end game (i.e. high level)shouldhave a realistic shot at becomingancient. To do otherwise requires such stringent requirements that only hard core powergamers who do nothing but play the game all the timewill ever be able to experience such an important part of the content. I consider this vastly unfair. The game is supported by subscribers with all sorts of playing styles (powergamers tend to be in the distinct minority btw). Therefore it should allow people with all sorts of playing styles the chance to experience most of the content -- including ancient if they choose to play a dragon.

---------------

It's interesting that many people playing dragons are concerned with there being too many ancients (although the usual assumption by people voicing that concern is that they will be one of the chosen few). During much of the HZ development, one of the biggest recurring concerns of posters on HZ boards was that there would be too many DRAGONS of ANY AGE. People proposed all sorts of crazy schemes to reduce the number of dragons. Usually these schemes involved powergaming (you had to first get a maxxed out biped before you could create a dragon), random luck (you would have a very small chance at the character creation screen of being given the option of creating a dragon), or griefing (everyone would be allowed to PK dragons. Even after HZ had been made PvE people were proposing that).

Many of the people who are now saying (direct or by implication) that the number of ancients should be limited would themselves not have been able to have a dragon of any sort if AE had gone down any of those paths. Instead, AE made the decision to let anyone who wanted to create a dragon do so, and to not make a dragon greatly more difficult then any other race. I think that was the right decision.

Likewise, it appears they made the right decision about the ARoP by allowing any dragon which is reasonably played to high level a shot at becoming ancient.

[Nanain]

It ought to be really hard, the only thing I have an issue with in the starter post is the idea of "main" characters. I may play my elf more than the other 4 chars, but I've never power lvled any of my chars, ever. Which is why I'm still ingame probably. So the idea of being told 'oh sorry you shouldn't be an ancient, because you play ur elf more than ur dragon'is frankly insulting.
One of the reasons Horizons is an awesome game, is that we have way more freedom to choose how we want our characters to do, than in other mmo's.

[imported_Lycaunoss]

While I was originally of the mind that Ancient status should be a very exclusive thing I have since changed my mind. I've been here since the beginning and I only play a single character. Been playing dragon through all the bad stuff that's happened to us and all the good stuff. I used to feel that gave me some sort of special status. It doesn't.

I think that anything that might draw people into the game is a good thing. If people want to come play dragons then great they can come and play. If they want to be ancient even better because they will be here longer. That doesn't mean making it easy.

[IndyMan]

IF everyone that makes a dragon toon cannot advance to ancient it will kill it for many who might join the game (in my opinion). If I wanted to play a dragon and found out that I could not become ancient, I would not play.

Everyone who plays a dragon should be able to become ancient eventually, again in my opinion.

[Kulamata]

By severely limiting the number of Ancients, most dragons would become losers. A game in which the most popular race has the majority of players doomed to lose, is going to be a short-lived game.

The only way a game can survive, is if nearly all players can "win",and do sowith a feeling of real accomplishment. This is a very difficult balance to continually maintain, and one Hz has not generally done well, as monotonous repetition has too often been the criterion for advancement. On the other hand, the RoP hit the balance brilliantly. May the Ancient Rite of Passage be as successful!

[Guaran]

Any dragon should be able to start the ARoP, with the existing official requirements in place, they have to do all the dragon adventurer quests, Adulthood Rite of Passage + Khutit quests. It's a fair amount of quests.

Finishing the ARoP might require even more diligence/work/crafting, but the starting requirements are fine. There's no "click here to become ancient", theres 69 quests required, one of which is Rite of Passage. 70 if they add "Earn Lasting Embers" to the list. This, plus 100 days since created, plus level 90. Having completed RoP means that 20 minimum craft levels are needed as well as 250k hoard.

All that is just to START the Ancient Rite of Passage. Completing it is likely to entail some difficulty, but everyone should have a shot at it starting it, getting their claws dirty.

The lore is going to be rich, a great story told over time, that people will want to experience. How far they get will depend on their dedication.

[Guaran]

If they are all completed by level 90 whats the problem? They still went thru 70 quests. People playing dragons and doing all the quests aren't just blowing thru for a few minutes and done. They take time. At least the did when I did them.

I don't see your logic, other than you wish to hold back dragons who aren't as old as you for some reason. Even if someone is powerleveling thier alt dragon, even helping them do all the quests, they are still DOING them.The things I see are people helping each other. Or someone playing on 2 pc's using thier main to help. It's not much different from 2 or 3 dragons working together doing them. They get help from each other. Nothing wrong with that. Makes it easier maybe, and concerning that there's nothing that really can be done, or even needs to be done IMO. I think to finish ARoP alot of time and effort on the dragons' part will be needed. We already know some parts will be dragon, maybe even solo, only.

I've heard some completely absurd stuff in the various threads all talking about the same thing..... [:^)] The horse is dead.

[Vlisson]

to make the arop more difficult dont means that you deny some dragons this status or the possibility to get ancient

hey if you would have told the first lvl 100 players that they can multiclass they would have laugh on you. multiclass has not interesting in the first month of the game.

but now time passed, people got bored... a lot of people multiclassed (i think only 1% is still single classed)

and so all dragons will get ancient some time, it will take, but they will do it

regardless how difficult it will be, only the time needed will be more.

ok im a big dragon, proud to get lvl 100 with wolves and marrows month before the crimson got into game or even elnath. i got lvl 100 craft with obsidian, not with marble/mithril

some think about that this long time playing dragon deserved a special right because they havent quitt their dragon due all this bugs/weaknesses of the dragons.

Now dragons got stronger (+2armor per lvl and armor because of the scales), so to get now a big dragon would be much easier then before.

i dont know if i earned something because i have been a full time dragon? this is why i want to hear your opinion!

the only thing i earned is that i played my dragon, without caring about the bugs/not finished quests/weaknesses of my dragon. Ive seen quitting players for much less then i experienced ^^

i love my dragon and i want that ancients are special creatures. ok im egoistic too and i hope the be ancient soon, hey im a human ^^

hmm i look forward how reality will come...

[Jaraiden]

Any dragon should be able to start the ARoP, with the existing official requirements in place, they have to do all the dragon adventurer quests, Adulthood Rite of Passage + Khutit quests. It's a fair amount of quests.

Finishing the ARoP might require even more diligence/work/crafting, but the starting requirements are fine. There's no "click here to become ancient", theres 69 quests required, one of which is Rite of Passage. 70 if they add "Earn Lasting Embers" to the list. This, plus 100 days since created, plus level 90. Having completed RoP means that 20 minimum craft levels are needed as well as 250k hoard.

All that is just to START the Ancient Rite of Passage. Completing it is likely to entail some difficulty, but everyone should have a shot at it starting it, getting their claws dirty.

The lore is gonig to be rich, a great story told over time, that people will want to experience. How far they get will depend on thier dedication.

Kumu is correct - those "quests" as you call them (repeating the optimistic view of them the Council has) are only "Kill X of Y" tasks needed to improve abilities (like armor) and increase damage output for a better playing experience. And so Primal and Tooth and Claw, which only dragons specialize in, move toward 9/level. Granted, I expect Ancients to have 1000 base in each at 100 (since other classes get 10/level in primary skills).

Yes, as DB stated earlier,the challenges will certainly entail those 10 extra levels of added statistics and skills to be better completed by the dragon for his/her own rite to earn Ancienthood. Come one, really want a "Help me plz" group of bipeds to be powered through the tasks (or some of them)?

The lore is rich, but will the game mechanics support it?

Ahh, lore, perhaps an analytical view is needed. First hint, though. The adult rite of passage to Ancient involved age in the past (when dragons aged and grew). Gifted dragons don't age, and if there are as I believe invisible normal dragons that do age . . . . well Finishing the adult rite of passage to Ancient will be allowed at an equivalent point of time - to honor the traditions the Council is charged with preserving (being they are old school). Want rich lore? Then will be that 230 days or more to mark a time to finish. Also, dragons, then and now, lived for centuries (the Gifted are immortal), thus time is not really important to such a long lived race . . . . nor duration of significant tasks, right?

However, for players that just "I wanna be ancient" then should just have that in the text of a Council member. A new Council member - called GiveittomeNow - with text link of "Be Ancient Now" and the finishing rewards it entails. Appease the "I don't need no stinkin' lore" players or those that don't want to sleep their dragons after PL sessions.

Edit: Ohhh, back on topic.

my simple question is:
should the ancient be rare creature? should everyone easy get ancient?

or only the players who played dragon every time as a main, not powerleeched...

this would disallow all casual players from getting ancient!

my personal view is that an ancient should get rare. the quest to get ancient should be real difficult and should last at least 2 weeks

it would be better for menot to become ancient than to see dragonpopulation like this:
60% ancient 30% adult 10% hatchling

what do you think about this sensitiv thing?

All dragons, and all players, have the option to have an Ancient dragon. It will take some players longer due to:

A. Interest in playing a dragon (thus time devoted to playing it as a main character)
B. Playing time (due to RL or other games)

Thus, in time, all Gifted dragons can become Ancient.

It is the game mechanics that are an issue - make it too easy or allow players to abuse them (in an un lore like manner) then Ancients could be like level 30/30 adult Lunus or 30/40 adult Helian . . . . wtf? How did you earn that status? Is sad dragons (due to poor game mechanics) can be so reliant on non-dragons to progress in dragon content. Don't really see the opposite.

So if game mechanics match stated lore (history and recent Council) then Ancients will be something to marvel at. The powergamer and the casual player will enjoy playing an Ancient dragon, one just sooner than the other (but both challenged by game mechanics that reinforce lore).

And weaknesses in game mechanics need to be addressed - that powerhoarding and powerleveling. Because the Council of Elders should ask why a dragon has been sleeping lots. Along with remarking on its speed of gaining knowledge (levels) - were they earned?

So if done properly, it will result in a good blend of Ancients, adults, and hatchlings and a more normal growth progress for each.

[Death-knell]

<Gets on his flame retardent undies>

Yes I believe every dragon should have the chance to become ancient.

But, that being said I also feel there should be a certain level of player responsibility also. If you want to role play a recluse dragon thats fine, but every roleplaying game I've ever played there is always a penalty for being an outsider type class. So, as a recluse and you miss out on a vital piece of info that restricts your from ancienthood. Thats an expensive price to pay, but considering the dragon society designed in HZ is a social one, not a bunch of recluses your bucking the mold. Now if this was other fantasy games like AD&D where most dragons ARE recluses that would be different.
As to those folks who were in such a rush to get to adulthood they hit the 30's and 40's and did ROP without doing the 50th level scale quest <shrug> The info was out there, the fact you could do ROP without getting that last scale does presents a bit of a problem to me. But I don't think AE/Tulga thought about that when they designed the AROP. So, I think if its going to be required they should open up an amnesty period so folks who were in a hurry before can get it done.

But I think the process of aging as a dragon should require the player themselves to pay attention to their character throughout the life of that character and missing things should cost you. That way, those who are diligently playing to become a mighty ancient can become so, and those who are just rushing along with sleepers and PLs might have to redo their character a few times or do their homework ahead of time.

[Jaraiden]

Dang duplicate, having problems with being able to Edit and Quote posts w/o backing-up and re-pressing button.

[Jaraiden]

He he, reclusive dragons could not even finish the hatchling RoP to adult - is not purely solable (need to talk to NPCs, like bipeds in their towns, and combat . . . .).

Many people looked at those scales and said "Worthless". Heck, I gave mine away after doing them because they did not have any armor and were useless to me.

You cannot tech them, so you can't use Primal vengeance with those scales. They plain and outright SUCK. That there is a good enough reason to not bother with the quest.

And now Armor has been added to them . . . . wisdom, Kumu as I know you have patience. Too bad AE back then did not address their "SUCK"edness in responding tothe support tickets for Suggesting those scales be improved (March or so 2004). To me, the quest and lore was enough, the scale a bonus (in a game where players are asking for more quests even . . . . :: stops ::.).

To me, proudly wearing a Helian scale earned from a quest given by an Ancient, before the Council of Elders . . . . what's wrong with that?

[Death-knell]

useless? Well never had or have primal vengence, but +35(I think it was) to all my primary abilities on granite. Can't beat that. I used that scale till I hit obsidian, and I did the quest not for the scale physical value, but for the RP of going helian.