A possible solution to the multi-class 'problem'

[Phillip]

read the manual.

[imported_Ssilmath]

Well, this old lizard is gonna chime in with his opinions...

First, I agree with Hal, that you should use your classes skills to fight a mob, not something borrowed from another. Also, having so many skills and spells linked amongst classes really does detract from the idea of actually learning a class...I mean, does it really make an sense at all for a warrior to be able to cast any spells at all? They are supposed to be a pure melee class...

My suggestion to add to the already good ideas is this. Make every class have a wide range of quested abilities, that have you make a choice which ability you get. Have some variety as well...I'll use paladins for an example...All paladins should be group oriented, with group aiding abilities, some active, some passive...Most races should have undead bashing abilities come from the quests, but 2 races follow unique dieties...Fiendish Paladins would be crusaders of vengeance, with almost reaverlike abilities granted by Niatha, and Sslik Paladins would have more berserker like abilities, blessed by Kass...So now, looking at a character that is 100 paladin, you just know that it is good to have in a group...The actual combat prowress is going to be different for each one...

Naturally, none of these class specific abilities would be transferable...and perhaps make some of the current masterable abilities less than masterable...Now, you have a lot of people who have a reason to stay with one class...They get to keep all of the customized abilities that they have used to build up their first class and can use quite effectively in combat. If they were to take a new class, they'd start the process over again, and spend time doing the quests and having actual content to entertain them...Someone with 4 level 100 classes, say with battlemage as the main for a tie in, should be basicly a battlemage with enhanced skills, able to tear level 100 mobs apart, but pretty even for a 120 WA mob...

Also, the removal of the rating penalty would be best, imho...otherwise, there really is no reason not to use a Sword of Rending, or use a non class related skill, or worst of all, get powerleveled...it should be faster to take a second or third class than the first, due to increased stats...but even so, When you are level 74 with a rating of 94, you have to kill those level 94 mobs for any decent XP, when I'd rather fight something more my level...

And finally...farmable mobs...find a way to deal with them...Have abominations and Fyakki spawn in the same area, and in a 2:1 ratio...Necroflies should have exponentially more power the larger the swarm and get some form of burst damage...do something along those lines, and you'll take care of the combine farming for ludicrous XP...

So, to make a long story short...multiclassing is great in and of itself...However, when out of control and with no class balance, it soon spirals away...Make there be a reason to stay with a single class, add in content that makes a character more powerful, balance mobs to a single classed person, let the higher tiers of mobs exist for multiclassed people...and fix the easily farmable mobs...

[refuse]

First, I agree with Hal, that you should use your classes skills to fight a mob, not something borrowed from another. Also, having so many skills and spells linked amongst classes really does detract from the idea of actually learning a class...I mean, does it really make an sense at all for a warrior to be able to cast any spells at all? They are supposed to be a pure melee class...

The same can be said for dragon crafting.

Does it make sense the dragon can gain XP in any one "function" while all other "functions" get better?

So they do orbs, and the get better at scale making, quarrying, mining. . .
They dig bricks and . . .

The "reality" of the situation is reality really isn't in the game.

Also about the warrior and casting spells, they are limited in the "spells" they can cast, so the Lore indicates it is the person that is the mage, not the class.

And while we are on reality, does it make sense that you can't wear "any cothes" you want? That some how your level and AU have some meaning? That Blood mages have a low AU, while Mages have a high AU. That I can't wear armor as a blood mage, but I can cast blood mage spells while wearing armor?

There are alot of "that doesn't make sense in the world", we can all come up with examples.

[Scarn_de_Diabolic]

lol, why not just remove the level and rating information completely from mobs and we can just say ohh those were tough. Or umn I'll get back to those in a few levels. Make a basic con system to give a rough idea of difficulty because you can only guess how tough something is by looking at it so far.

[Aamer Khan]

Hal may be on to something.

Multiclassing, in of itself, is not a bad thing at all. That WAS a part of the game and hype since the beginning. But, too many things cross over to other classes, too many abilities are masterable.

I was watching a few MC 'uberpeds' yesterday, and the thought occured to me that I wonder what they will do when they have powerleveled eachother to 15 lvl 100 adv classes? Oh sure, it took time, and willingness to stick with the grind, but hardly a distinction. If anything, I'm betting they are doing it more out of bordom than real need. To quote PJ, "What else is there to do?"

Not everyone is a multiclassing uberped. Many are crafters, and may have 2 or 3 classes. I believe myself to be the norm with 4 classes. Only 1 at 100, and cleric being my highest secondary class. My belief is that the "norms" are a majority and those with an AR of 150+ are the minority. Part of why this "problem" keeps getting mentioned, is that if something is not done, the disparity between highlevel MC's and starting players will continue to widen. Higher level players don't see this as a problem, perhaps even TG does not view it as a problem. But the newer players do. The single classers do, and the crafter do. In driving forward the game towards MC based content, it has made it much harder to enjoy the game. To be able to successfully gather ironsilk, you need an adv to protect you ( not easy to arrange ) or you are forced to get high enough yourself to protect yourself. Once you take an ability that defines a class and give it to others, it can make that class pointless. New players are not what they were when the game started. back then we all had to learn to provide for ourselves. Now, they are encouraged to level so fast, to "catch up" with everyone else, that they never learn the basics, and thus can't provide for themselves or others. ( we still have very little mid level items being made although I recieve requests for it all the time )

Lets run the idea put forth in this thread out a bit further... Lets say they DO some sort of adjustment to exp, ar, skill... whatever. And lets say that a few don't like it and quit. That would be a loss that could hurt, but what could the net gain be? One glaringly obvious gain would be that ALL players would have an equal chance to be useful in a fight, and not have to sacrifice personal playstyle to be able to compete. No NEED to MC just to play the higher level content. Right now, I feel that I'm being forced to take up classes I never wanted just to be able to participate in the "Gigacontent". What is there for Archers? For Monks, Mages, or the others? It's almost as if the content is purposfully designed around melee classes. I would goto WD and be a part of the content there, but why? what do I get out of it? I'm already 40 mil over 100, and there is no reward loot for a scout out there.

I hope the Devs look into Hal's Idea, because it benefits the majority of the playerbase much better than any other ideas I have heard lately.

[Crazyfingers]

multiclassing keeps people playing the game. Crafting or Adventuring. If many didnt have this option they would have left a long long time ago. So limiting the amount of multiclassing wont work. Need an endgame things to advance your toon besides leveling. Make your Dragon or biped different from the next guys.

If players had something to do besides level another class we wouldnt be having this discussion.

NimKhazad

[Kwinn]

And that what the entire purpose of this thread, get behind a good idea and hope someone takes notice.

I admit my idea probably aint the brightest bulb on the tree. However, Hal has one that is right up at the top and glows to beat hell. I like it and for what its worth it has my support. Brilliant idea Hal. Good job.

However, there is a way to level a class without ever kiling a mob as that class, trophy quests. Gather trophies with main class, switch to class ya want to lvl and go visit trophy hunter. For Hal's idea to work this little loophole must be addressed.


Kwinn

[evilkarl]

Earning XP is the flaw in the current system not the system itself. People do not need to actually earn xp they can stand around and get it or turn in trophies.

The classes need rebalancing I agree however imo the multiclass system itself is fine.

[Theolaerynn]

These kinds of threads crack me up. Not the intent, but the maturity of the responses:

"If you don't agree with me you are retarted and suck"

High class argument there, and great for promoting discussion. Nothing but (Cl)******.

Anyway, I love my Dragon and I have a great time playing him. I would hate to see Dragons multi-class, and would rather see any adjustments to them come via quests and the like, but I am quite happy with the way they are now.

As for multi-classing, as long as I don't have to compete with Uber-Peds for quest kills then I really couldn't care any less. My Dragon is not a bi-ped and is not concerned about comparing himself to bi-peds. All he cares about is the ability to tank and do his job, and thus far the recent armor fix has enabled him to do that. With the current rate and level of hoard drops, things are good. Things will be even better when ARoP and Lairs are finished and in game.

[AA0]

I had to break this glorious post just to mention that some archer classes are not so bad. The mob rangers can permastun you from a long ways off... and if they had AI they would be super hard to beat if you fail to close the distance between.

While a strider is annoying, they are far from a difficult mob that is balanced. Being only in chainmail I don't think they take off double digit damage to me except when using specials, and their to hit is pretty low. It is a perfect example of how screwed up the whole class system has become, archers are unable to damage their enemies unless they multiclass.

[Vahrokh]

After (and if) they rebalance'n stuff they must close the current loopholes:

- tokens. Not only you can farm them with the main class then reuse in the class you raise (i.e. no effort, no time sink, shortcut of the devised times to level up), but you can buy them by the thousands since they can be traded. Powerlevelling, twinking, min maxing come up immediately.

- multiple mob and group experience given away to everyone with open hands without any check for i.e. a window of levels to accept as viable to getsaid exp. Viable = read the next paragraph.

- getting exp off an insane range of mobs. At level 100 I get experience at killingnickel golems(in craft: same borkage btw). This is simply unacceptable. It is a "temporary fix" of pre-merge times to let people go to level 100 having the max mobs at level 80 but as of now it's not only unnecessary, but really game breaking.
Take i.e. a decent game like WoW: 7 levels below you = 0 exp. Period. And lessens exponentially even before that gap.

- getting exp off an insane range of mobs part II: at level 1 I get holy exp by just being in group with level 100 people. Once again, in true adventure games you won't get a dime. You are out of the window to get experience and will magnetically aggro everything at you.
These fixes alone fix the insane farming / powerlevelling. And if you level 10 group with a level 100 even at level 10 mobs: 0 exp again. You know what amazed me mostly in WoW? I met no powerlevelling group. Ever. There's of course dungeon instance farming for uber loot but it's not powerlevelling others. And you live very, very, very shortly if you go there with a too low level. All the mobs aggro on you. And the mobs are elite, they ravage you AND when you get ressed they WILL chase and gank your "soul".
Call this 0 tolerance for leechers and lamers. I am all for it. If not more.

The objections would be: "it will detract by my freedom to kill mobs 20 levels above me and I am alone to do it in solo so wtf?" and "how do I raise my 5th class getting 0 exp"?
Simple: a real rebalance is against players and mobs. If you can solo (and I met people able to slay mobs 35 levels above their rating) such a mob it's because either your class is broken or the mob is broken. Since spotting every weakness in mobs is the full time job of any exploiter, in WoW they introduced another concept: every mob that is about 3-4 levels above you starts naturally resisting your attacks. Above 4 levels they are almost immune to anything you throw at them. And no, you usually don't "feel" this mechanism turning on, because the mobs are well done enough to provide a very though fight at 2 levels above you just with their natural skills, whatever your class (the reaction changes too: if you are a caster they will love to silence you, if you are metal they pierce armor with skills etc.).
And pronto you got thesolution to close the "gaps" that the infinite player class vs mob class possible combos would provide.

Note for Hz player: I know that saying "3-4 levels => lock exp" seems insane. But it's not true. Only Hz allows tens of levels of disparity to be exploited at will, the other games would fail miserably like Hz if they did (read: content consumed in2 days then quit, still in the free trial period!). And they don't.

About the impossibility to MC with strict level checking: it's possible to adjust the algorithm to take into consideration when calculating the given exp it who is to receive it is level 10 rating 10 or level 10 rating 80 and give it only in the second case, so it's a non problem.

This post is courtesy of the Anti Leechers And Powerlevellers Committee. [H]

[AA0]

I don't think the answer is to make grouping and exp gain so strict as to remove the fun from the game. If you want to hunt with friends you should be able to, but the leaching needs to be stopped. We had a great guild hunt last night from levels 60-100 in a t6 area, and everyone helped and had fun, why would you ever want to eliminate that? You have to think not only of the people ruining the game, but of the people enjoying it now.

[evilkarl]

ah is right this soloing stuff 10+ levels over your own should never have happened. A cap on group/multi mob is needed.

Sure there should be nothing to prevent you from grouping with your level 1 friends if you want to however they should be able to be PL'd for it. Perhaps the system should utilise a cut off and a percentage based range to determine xp for example

Player level equal Mob level = Good XP
Player level less than mob level but great than 5% below mob level = Best XP (risk vs reward)
Player more than 5% below mob level = 0 XP+Instant agro
Player level greater than Mob level = Gradual reduction.

For this to happen of course mobs/classes would need to be balanced to be a 50% chance vs an level platyer versus all classes. And something would need to be planned for coping with ratings.

[Theolaerynn]

One of the only things Horizons has going for it that no other game I have played has is the ability to team with anyone of any level and have the experience be mutually enjoyable. Power leveling is a problem in every game, and will not be solveable in a posative manner.

Take EQ2 as an example. Gear is level limited, and the level range where all group members will gain experience is small. Most buffs do not work outside of the group you are in, and most heals do not either. Even with all of that, powerleveling is alive and well, although reduced to only those that are really intent on doing it. The only thing that was accomplished is a lower sense of community, and as far as I am concerned there really never was a sense of community in EQ (either version) to begin with.

On top of that there is the question of what exactly is powerleveling. Is it a certain disparity between levels? If so, is that disparity the same for all schools? My wife and I have only recently been back from taking an extended break from Horizons. Given that I used to spend much more time in Istaria than she, I am level 100 and she returned at 60. That is 40 levels of difference, and when we would fight several level 120 critters she plainly could not damage them. So did I powerlevel her? Consider her class, Healer. She has no other besides the minimum prerequisites to join the Healer school. She was not only able to contribute, but she was able to contribute enough that we could kill things together that I could not kill alone.

I do find it interesting to note that some folks that are all for multi-classing are against powerleveling, dispite the fact that powerleveling is a common tool in multi-classing. While some of these folks have worked for every level and are upset that they are being matched by folks that may never have even been at the keyboard, it makes me wonder just how many folks have never had the benefit of powerleveling. I imagine far fewer than have raised voice against it.

[Phillip]

"I do find it interesting to note that some folks that are all for multi-classing are against powerleveling, dispite the fact that powerleveling is a common tool in multi-classing."

i am one of them. i do like multiclassing and like the benefits received from the levels earned. HZ powerleveling isn't about levels earned, it is about levels leeched. it is how it's done that's the problem. the rating system is at fault, the mob design is at fault, and of course, the players who took advantage of such.

[Vahrokh]

One of the only things Horizons has going for it that no other game I have played has is the ability to team with anyone of any level and have the experience be mutually enjoyable. Power leveling is a problem in every game, and will not be solveable in a posative manner.

Let's be straight:

1) No game forces you to avoid grouping with your friends, even with 10 - 20 levels less than you.
So where does Hz diverge? In the fact that I can (and I have, I am getting my ex-Hz guildies joining me in WoW but they start now and I am going for level 30) group with my new guildies, have fun and a blast exploring and killing stuff etc, but they won't get exp. They will get loot, money, everything but not exp. Horizons instead encourages leeching by letting everyone have a good share of exp, actually much more than when soloing. In fact you will share exp with others but being them experienced and high level, you'll get top notch buffs, "borrowed" good equipment, teched healing when needed and when you screw up... oopla' the highbie multistrikes your attacker(s) and you are safe. And even in case you die... voila' resurrection with no running back.

So in the end, let's be straight, is it fun to group to have a good time? Or because you have a good time and nice exp on a silver platter? Sure the second option is as good as having own class doing 10,000 damage a hit just because, but for the health of the game it is negative. Hence the other games don't impose you to renounce to fun but from having an abnormal gain out of it when the players levels are too different.
Even buffs are rightfully limited because once you buff +100 hp a guy with a total of 200hp it's really a gross hole in the game.

2) Powerlevelling is in any game. True but false.
Powerlevelling if there's no exploit (and serious games timely close them and have the balls to ban the offending accounts, in Wow even hundreds at a time) is more of a job than anything. You got to get a character following a dedicated group farming the hell of "good places" for quite a long time. In WoW iirc it takes about 6 days of 24 hours a day to reach to 60 using all the available means. Or 18 days playing 8 hours a day. To make level 60. The resulting character, on www.ige.com will cost about $349 to $399. A job.

Now let's review and laugh at the Horizons concept of powerlevelling:
First of all you toss all the crystals / tokens / everything and reach at least level 14 without even moving off New Brommel.
Then you move to golems III and grow one level every few minutes, in relaxing AFK. No check on afk done of course like any basic game would do (so at least you have to be smart and find an AFK bot), unlike the other games so you level while at i.e. school.
Then jump to Elnath or even ED for 120 wimpymobs.

Total time needed for an adult dragon including Lunus craft levels: about one day.
Total time needed for 60 levels: less than one day, for 100 levels 2 days.

It's so ******** easy to leech to 100 in Hz that no IGE will sell powerlevelled accounts because none would give a rat for them. All you need is a friend to autofollow.

So it's 18 work days of WoW to powerlevel a 60 toon and 2 of Hz to powerlevel to 100. Anyone spots anything? Expecially since WoW isfamous for the fast levelling up?

Basically what you get in Hz is not even "powerlevel" as intended in other games, as in these it takes effort and is almost a job. In Hzit's just "cheating up" fast to 100.
And the worst thing is the game encouraging and providing full support to do it.

[Pharcellus]

My take:

It can't be fixed via grand and sweeping changes to the underlying design. Why?

1) They have to really fix the system.
2) They have to fix the effects of the old system (ie, mitigtate "grandfathering").
3) It will require a lot of hard work.
4) Few, if any will appreciate it in the short term.

The effects of the current multiclassing system are being felt by the devs. Even David himself is acknowledging that there are issues. It IS slowing down the development process, because it has become more of a challenge to put out balanced, targeted content as a result.

The speed at which additional classes are attained is a sidereal, but no less egregious factor in the overall problem.

[imported_tjl]

read the manual.

Ok I read it again front to back... can't see anything in there that would lead one to believe this game is all about multiclassing. It mentions on one page that you can do it to pick up a few extra skills, but that doens't mean it is a "primarily multiclassing game". The manual also talks about guilds, does that make it a primarily guild oriented game? It talks about combat, does that make it a primarily combat oriented game? anyway...

Multiclassing is not entirely the problem, its how it was implemented. Every single character out there should have some form of vulnerability to make up for thier strong points. Almost all the single classes do this, and if you mix enough of them into one character, the only vulnerability becomes the amount of mobs it takes to kill you. range isn't a factor, armor isnt a factor, health isnt a factor, damage type isnt a factor, evasion isnt a factor, healing ability isnt a factor... and so forth.

[Phillip]

"can't see anything in there that would lead one to believe this game is all about multiclassing."

i didn't say this game is all about multiclassing uh...we are talking about the adv aspect here.

the adventuringside of the game is primarily about multiclassing and it was well promoted as such, as well it shouldn't be newsflash to anyone.

now think about it, if a person like to play the more pure, singleclassing game, why would they chose this one? quite a few use the basis of purity or playing to the role, that promotes grouping and the need to fill such role but, aren't there a bunch of games out there that's 100 times better in that regard? why in the world would they pick HZ to play?

why pick HZ to play then complain about MC, which something unique that's been good for many who embraced it?

is it because these people can multiclass in crafting here? is it because HZ got a good crafting system? then why don't these people just stay singleclassed, and craft, and shut up about it?

for many others, it's because they like to multiclass but their race/class can't mutliclass, or that they don't care for multiclassing but simply want to be just as good. in the end it's simply about people who rather see changes tofit their staystyle and prefence, and care for none else.

[Aamer Khan]

Ok.. how about this as an idea...

Make Adv exp the same as crafting exp. In other words, you only gain exp from something YOU actually do. Leeching would be impossible. Even in a group, if you can't damage the mob you get no exp.

Along with this idea, you would need to make the exp gained from hunting lower level creatures trail off to zero, just like in crafting. This would also make it where there would be few players that had 4-15 level 100 adventure classes. Players would have to choose carefully what classes are chosen.

The players that are now the Uberpeds, would suffer the most. The AR hit would affect them to such a degree that they would have to pick a few classes to drop. However, the game would return to being a challenge again, and in the long run, more fun.

( puts on fire resistant cloak and waits to be bombed )