A simple idea with big potential

[Aamer Khan]

This idea has been bantered about before, but it's time to make it again.

Make armor and weapons wear out.

Specifically, lets say you have a fully teched set of Mith armor. As you go out and fight, the first 2-3 days your actively in battle, no wear shows. But for every 3 days you use your armor, it looses it's basic stats. So, for every 3 days of active use, it looses -10 armor. So, in a months time you need it repaired. Techs would not be affected. Repairs would require only bars and orbs, and use more resources the more damaged a piece was. Like 1 bar 1 orb for minor damage, up to what it takes to make the piece in bars for fully worn pieces.

Now I know some will not like this idea.

It will be inconvient at times.
It will make the adventurer more dependant on crafters.
It will favor the crafter over the adventurer.
It provides purpose to the crafter, but not to the adventurer.

Let's look at each one to see if there is any way to offset the negative...

It will be inconvient at times.
Sure it will, just like debuffs are inconvient, death is without a healer to rez close by.

It will make the adventurer more dependant on crafters.
Yes it will, and it could work to the adventurers advantage. Instead of money for the repair, why not trade comps, or resources gotten as loot when hunting? The more astute crafter will need to offer incentives to get customers. Merely lowering prices may not be enough.

It will favor the crafter over the adventurer.
Yes it will. This is the big downside to this idea and why it has usually been abandoned when ever brought up. In a craft centric game, there is already an imbalance in favor of the crafter.

It provides purpose to the crafter, but not to the adventurer.
This is where the idea needs help. Yes, it would give the crafter a new purpose, but the adventurer is not helped at all. But there is one thing we have seen lately that could help. As new content for the adventurer is added, why not add the repair forms as drop only items. Adventure types could have the added purpose to collect and resell these forms to the crafters. The new round shield forms are an example of this in action. However these forms should not be rare, but reasonably common. Rare forms that give special stat enhancements
could be added that would give a further range of things to look for and sell.

But more than that, the adventurer needs a purpose to exist. Raids on towns are great, but we need more ongoing threats to keep players playing. Put roaming mobs around all towns. Have them wander into towns and kill NPC on occasion. Have the WA setup blight portals that if not distroyed, will actually over take an area. ( better version of the anchors ) Make a patrol of high tier mobs wander from one end of aradoth to the other. If not stopped, they wreak havoc all any town they pass. Give us a new challenge like the rebuilding of Rachival.

Added: another idea LaughingOtter mentioned in IRC...

Chance for crafters to have crit success crafting items - "Unbreakable fine mithril battle axe" etc..

Ok... what do you think?

[Senkeleron Fell]

Here is a possible positive-

Allow the repairman to change the color of the armor during the repair process.

[kengar]

I'm not totally opposed to items wearing out. However, I don't like the mechanic you suggested. First, it needs to be related to use (hitting things or parrying with weapons, getting hit for armor, and blocking for shields). The day that armor/weapons degrade while sitting in the vault, people will have a coniption, and I may well be one of them.

Second, that's way too fast. Why? Because only an idiot is going to wait for their mithril armor to drop to no defense before getting it repaired. 10 points every 3 days per piece is 43 points (47 for shield users) PER DAY. If my armor is at 2000, I'm going to want to repair it before it drops below 1800, if that. That's 4-5 days, more than once a week.

This could be addresses by doubling the armor value, but then capping the effective armor value at its current amount. So padded ironsilk, currently 56 AR if I remember correctly, would start off degrading from 112 but only provide 56 AR until the degradation number gets below 56. This would mean that items are fully functional for half of their expected lifetime even without repair.

Third, while I like the mechanic that means that higher tier armors are tougher and would last longer, this means that the poor lvl 1-10 characters are going to need to get armor repairs every day, as their armor will be completely gone by day 3.

I liked the way armor/weapon degradation worked in Rubies of Eventide, though that method wouldn't work here as it requires a chance of failure while crafting. Basically, crafters could make weapons/armor up to 125% quality, and quality was a direct modifier to the amount of damage a weapon delivered or armor blocked.

Whatever quality the item is when originally created, that was its permanent cap. Then, every time you hit something or got hit, there was a chance you'd take a 1% hit to quality. After a while, you'd want to get the item repaired.

Repairing an item took half the skill it took to create the item, but the farther above the minimum skill you were the more you could repair an item in a single attempt, and the less likely the attempt was to lower the permanent cap. So you really didn't want to risk precious items by letting them degrade more than 5-10%.

Of course, in the end, almost everyone picked up a crafting skill or two to repair their own armor/weapons, so the net effect was much less than anticipated.

[Phillip]

one of the main reason why people left this game to begin with is because adventurers were made totally reliant on crafters.

this will make it even worst.

[Aamer Khan]

Actually only pure adventureres. Many did like most do in other games... they took up crafting.
And even though there probably are a few players that do NO crafting at all, I'll wager there are very few. ( of course, I could be totally wrong, so would need lots of feedback to know )

Kengar, I really had something like that in mind. Idle armor or weapons would lose nothing. Only armor and weapons actively being used would wear. So, since your not in active combat every moment your in game, wear would not in practice be all that fast. How many RL hours does it take to get 72 hours of active combat?

[Phillip]

problem is most MMORPGers aren't into crafting. they make up the other 95% piece of the pie. when people said the devs at AE was misguided, this is what they meant.

a dev at Blizzard said something i remember: "it's world of WARcraft."

the idea is crafting should be there to enhance the game, not BE the game.

Horizons center around a war, too.it wasn't delivered,hence its demise.

in the first 6 months alone, HZ lost most of its subcribers. you can track back the VN boards for their reasoning: too craftcentric.

[evilkarl]

I think item degradation is needed to keep money moving around the economy. Not fond of the wear time you suggested. I think the best Idea would be a damage value assigned to all pieces and when that much damage has been taken it starts to degrade.

EG Mithril Plate: Armour 112 (i think) Absorbs: 24000 damage without needing repair. Every 10% over incurs a 1-5 pt protection reduction.

However I am opposed to adding even more adventurer dependance on crafters it is almost a one way street these days and thats not good. Being able to loot repair kits for use on the fly would be a nice addition.

Before making Adventurers more dependant on crafter give the advs purpose.

[Pharcellus]

Oh please.

Pure adventurers have no more reason to run away from Horizons with item decay than without.

"Dependence on crafters" is a stupid strawman. The REAL issue is, and has continued to be, SOMETHING TO DO. The mechanism by which SOMETHING TO DO is achieved is irrelevant, as long as it can be DONE.

Personally, I don't care for Item Breakage, but simple percentile decay down to a minimum percentage (say 25-50%) of functionality would work fine. Then you take it to your guildie crafter or pay some nice person whom you didn't know too well before a small fee, and poof! Good to go back at the front.

[Jayne]

Well concidering some want more feel, thats a great idea! I mean I have played the Hot Rod drag racing game and as you use the car your driving it wears and you have to repair or place parts.....sounds realistic to me.

Of course there will be those that want to go out and find the rare piece of jewelry that eliminates all damage so they don't have to go get their armor fixed, LOL

Jayne

[evilkarl]

Maltavorn, thats your opinion and you are entitiled to it. When money is flowing from adv to crafter all the time and not the other way then adventurers feel there is a one way relationship between the two.

You wouldn't know this though because a) your a dragon and make everything yourself b) your biped is a MMC crafter.

[Pharcellus]

Since WHEN did money stop flowing from crafter to adventurer? Since WHEN did anyone suggest that it stop? I've made adventurers RICH. NO adventurer or group of adventurers has made ME rich.

Last time I checked, my biped is also a topped-out adventurer. He's paid no end of crafters for his weapons, his armor, etc.

However, since you want to resort to "attack the poster" instead of "attack the issue", fine.

I understand the equation at least as good as you do, so bite me.

[refuse]

I liked the idea of the "buffs" being in a crystal attached to the armor.
That way when the armor wore out, you would get new armor, and re-attach the crystals.

It does have the side effect of making "techs" transferable, as well as making need "tech drops" that my be 2-3 techs in a single crystal. Dragons could make some crystals, tinkerers, Alchemists, armorers, and more could have "versions" of crystals (sometimes runes, sometimes spring loaded mechanical things, confectioner's creating things too).

what would be interesting is to make the crystals work multiple ways.

Imagine this.

1)Crafting class makes "empty" crystals.
2)Adv Crafts fill the crystals (the gain X value through a spell, or ability). The crafters buy the empties, and go out and fight. Blood mage fill "blood crystals", paladins fill "istarian" crystals, warriors fill "Might" crystals. These adventurers have to socket the crystal and then perform action/kill things.
3) Crafters now buy these crystals and make item out of them. So there could be health (Tech) crystals using "life" powered by clerics/healers (have to be in that class to charge them), Energy Crystal (mage/wizard), Nature Crystals (druids/shaman/rangers).
4) The adventurers/Crafters buy the final products to put in armor/staves/weapons that will wear out. They can then fix the item, or carry backups.


This way, there is a good complexity (specialty of Istaria), a back and forth (i.e. to get these powered crystals you need adv to power them), it involves all the crafting classes, and all the adv classes.

Simple techs may require a single "crystal", while "better" techs could require a combonation of crystals.


Or something like that. It was a suggestion I have read before and put my own spin on it.

[Phillip]

"I've made adventurers RICH."

must be talking about T5 form/tech drops...haha lamo.

the one time crafters had to somewhat rely on adventurers and they need therapy.

hey i did say to the hundreds of crafters: DON'T SPEND ALL YOUR CASH ON THAT STUFF THE MARKET WILL SATURATE... but nooo haha, gotta have the tech gotta have the tech gotta have...

i just placed 50 techs on the Aug conny today. price range: 5-15s.

what about T1-4, which way did the money go? that went on for 11 months.

[evilkarl]

Phillip no its the adventures fault that crafters bid upto 6g for techs in auctions. The adventurers caused the price to go so high

*falls of his chair laughing*

Before the merge money flowed one way into the crafters wallet. That is unless the crafter CHOSE not to charge which on dawn and order a great deal of crafters wont do. Shortly after the merge and the release of t5 techs the money finally flowed back the other way until the market became saturated as it is now. Money at present occasionally flows back into the pocket of an adventurer if he/she wants to try and sell forms or comps but for the most part it doesn't move at all or into crafters pockets.

[imported_Zayin]

Maybe I am lucky but in my guild we have crafters that can make everything in the game so needing repairs done would be no big deal. Only problem is having to be on same time as they are and getting it done just seems like a hassle to me.

[imported_Twelvebagger]

I'm all for item decay, but not sure on how decay should function in terms of timing/amount.

[Lunatic Fringe]

If it applies to armor and weapons, then it should apply to spells, jewelry, and everything on plots. The longer a potion sits without being used, the more its buff fades away as well. If you apply it to anything, apply it to all.

[Lunatic Fringe]

OK, maybe potions is too extreme, but tools, cargo gear, disks, backpacks, pouches, every structure on plots, and i would even suggest limiting the number of uses you get from a scribed form/tech. Go Big if it is to be done at all. Otherwise it is unfair to someone out there. The form/tech build limit would keep the adventurers collecting forms for the crafters.

[Pharcellus]

"I've made adventurers RICH."

must be talking about T5 form/tech drops...haha lamo.

If you are looking for something lamo, find a mirror.

I buy tech comps. STILL.

I buy forms and techs. STILL.

I buy hoardables. STILL.

I buy bottle caps. STILL.

I buy unique set pieces, if anyone would be willing to sell me one.

The list goes on and the money keeps flowing.

I make more money farming the pawn broker or doing construction than I ever could pry out of an adventurer's hands. I have people telling me that selling a triple-vengeance-teched chest scale isn't worth the measly 25sp I ask for it.

What have you had to buy recently from a crafter, Phillip? Oh, yeah, your guild provides everything for you. Imagine that.

hey i did say to the hundreds of crafters: DON'T SPEND ALL YOUR CASH ON THAT STUFF THE MARKET WILL SATURATE... but nooo haha, gotta have the tech gotta have the tech gotta have...

Yeah, guess what? BECAUSE the ADVENTURERS came up to us with "gotta have the expert spell!! gotta have the mithril armor!! gotta have the mithril weapon!! gotta have the mithril/marble scales!! gotta have the T4/T5 tech!!". Give me a farging break. I knew the market would saturate, but I still spent it. Why? Because I LIKE making stuff for people, especially my GUILDMATES. I LIKE being able to help them out. I LIKE the potential to make some money -- I did. Did I make a profit in the long run? No. Do I care? Yes and no.

what about T1-4, which way did the money go? that went on for 11 months.

Uhh, I bought PLENTY of my T1-3 techs, comps, forms, lore tokens, IBMs, etc, from adventurers, so I don't know where you get off making it like it was a crafter smorgasbord. I was one of the highest Dragon crafters on Dawn for a long time. I made a LOT of spells and scales, but I made most of my money by adventuring or crafting to the PB. Bitter Pickle was hideously effective at producing large amounts of coin.

[Pharcellus]

Phillip no its the adventures fault that crafters bid upto 6g for techs in auctions. The adventurers caused the price to go so high

*falls of his chair laughing*

Well, if you'd stop asphyxiating yourself long enough to think, WHERE do you suppose that money came from? Hmmm? Yeah, farming the pawnie. Exploits. What else? Hmmm. Yeah. DEMAND FROM ADVENTURERS. "If you can make me a full set of Mithril Plate, I'll pay you several gold". Yes, that was actually said to several crafters I know. Adventurers paid Vielo prices for forms and gave them to crafters to get the "newest and best right ******** now".

Before the merge money flowed one way into the crafters wallet. That is unless the crafter CHOSE not to charge which on dawn and order a great deal of crafters wont do.

That's such a crock and you know it. There's no end of crafters who'll make you something for free or super cheap. There's no end of people expecting you to make stuff for free or super cheap. Thankfully, they aren't the majority, but I run into them occasionally enough to know they are out there. I charge a fair price for my time and materials, or try to.

Dragon crafters were the worst about this on Dawn, then Order. Free spells and scales! Remember the big arguments on Tazoon over that?

Money at present occasionally flows back into the pocket of an adventurer if he/she wants to try and sell forms or comps but for the most part it doesn't move at all or into crafters pockets.

Let's see. My money flow for the week....

Bought Mind IV for 20sp...
Guildie bought Expert Leather Backpack for me for 50sp...

Sold two Platinum sunscopes for 10sp total.
Sold 3 teched steel tools for 6sp total (customer-supplied comps).

So, that's a net 54sp in the direction of adventurers. That's about a typical week for me. But I guess, by your estimation, I am making a killing "again". They teach that "new math" down under now or something?