Why is it that people only adress the adventure Multi-classing issue

[Altair]

Im just curious whyalot of peoplewant to jump on the "multi-classed adventurers are ruining this game" bandwagon. Thats not the only problem with this game,and it is onlyone ofmany major reasons the economy in this game is so screwy. Lets take a look at some of the other issues.

Super Multi-classed crafters - Very bad for a supposed player based economy Whats the point for anyone to buy anything when in reality and in most cases they can just make whatever item they need for themselves? Or the fact that a new player can't beat them on pricing due to the fact that it takes some one new 3 to 10 times the time and effort to make it.

Pawnbrokers - Why bother trying to sell refined resources or finished goods when you can get the money for them right now off of a pawnbroker. Also it makes crafters lazy and they dont generally bother stocking consigners with the lower lvl tools needed for newer player. Not saying they are not willing to help out but whats the point when you can make garunteed money?

Nadia - Every has the same complaint here, well mostly. Whats the point in hunting up what you need when you can just pawnbroker stuff and buy it. I find it pretty sad when you offer up 100s to a newer player in Marketplace chatfor 10 t3 tech comps and the responce is it takes to much time and why dont you just buy them??? And they want to sit and complain about being broke???



These are just 3 of the many things that i see wrong with the game.... Go ahead and flame away thats all that seems to happen around here anyways.


Altair Argannon
EoI

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Dunno but you should check your PMs in a really big hurry like NOW NOW NOW!


*this has been an off topic announcement brought to you by the power of cheese*


EDIT: And now for my on topic opinion, I think they are both fine personally and both have pretty much been born out of lack of better things to do for the most part. There are very few JoATs out there who actually started out wanting to be that way. Lack of better things to do and also a lack of finding what you need from others is what causes one to become a JoAT, again for the most part.

My main is a JoAT and does everything except spells (deligated to my dragon) and wooden weapons (lack of formulae space and having a full on hate for resource trees and the lag they induce). That list use to include wooden tools as well until I was forced to take on Carpenter because there was no one I could find to do that work for me. I've already stated elsewhere that once the new formulae changes go in and are working properly I will most likely amend that yet again and take up Fletcher as well since formulae limit will not be a problem any longer I don't believe.

I've actually never seen any imbalance to the crafting system. Sure, there are a lot of people out there who do a lot of crafts but those in higher tiers tend not to bother working in lower ones so lower tier crafters get their chance at the lower end market. And those higher levels who do work in lower tiers do so very rarely and usually do it as a charity.

And yes, I hate those Nadia responses as well.[8-)] But personally on that note I would like to see Nadia AND PBs removed from the game entirely so I suppose I'm not very crafter friendly in that regard even though I'm a JoAT crafter. *snicker* The economy isn't fubar because of JoAT crafters, nor is it by adventurers, the PBs and drop rates play a HUGE part in that.

The only problem I have ever seen in the adventure multi-classing system is how TG has begun to balance mobs against mega-multi-classed characters. If they could do something for lesser multi-classed or single classed characters to bring them closer in line with a mega-multi-classed adventurers then it would all be hunky dorey and then people could worry about other things to complain about like epic spells and Confectioner stuff that still won't be in by next year.. Stuff like that. :P

[Altair]

Because people take on 1 topic at a time per thread for the most part.

All of those problems have their own threads if you use the power that is "Search". In the threads that you have been reading, they have been discussing one problem. This game has many as you yourself have pointed out.

Yeah all these problems have thier own thread and here is yet another....

And as far as the power that is "Search"... If you dont have anything constuctive to add to the current post I ask that you please refrain from posting on the thread.

Because In my "Opinion" These three of many issues rest well above the multiclassed adventurer as problems in this game.

Altair Argannon
EoI

[Entilzah]

Keep it sweet folks, brief derailment there but as Kumu points out, he's agreeing with you Altair so best to make the most of fellow players being on your side [:)]

[Altair]

Well my appoligies if i misunderstood you but after reading your first post yet again I dont see how you are agreeing with me

[Altair]

See it now?

No.


Altair Argannon
EoI

P.S. [:P]

[refuse]

I agree Altair.

There is alot "fundamentally" wrong, and people jump on MC.

(note the below is meant to be serious, and light hearted)

Add to the above list
Economy:
Super classed, bored crafters that will build anything for free.
Many guilds have these monsters! They have actually built a T6 structure because they can. They probably own 90x90 plots built them, and then redisgned them (i.e. tore them down and rebuilt). They build the guilds armor, weapons, disks, potions and more.
They have nothing better to do then build for free, as money has no meaning, and doing anything for anyone is better then sitting around again!

High level crafters with no purpose While like the above, these people are already 100 in a crafting class, and really don't feel like grinding out 3-10 more crafting classes. They will make anything and get paid only "tips". These people are great for the players, but really undermine the economy. How can an upcomming crafter compete?

Super bored hunters They have hunted, and hunted and hunted. They hit 100, then changed classes. Now they farm. Why, because they don't have anything else to do. They ran out of content, don't want to create another charcter and really just log on to hunt. And hunt the do. Fire beetles, SoG, anything. Need help with your RoP in a guild, these people kill Shadow Dragon for fun! They drop dozens and dozens of comps/techs/forms on the guild. So many every guildie has what they need, and if the guildie doesn't have it, they will cleanse Istaria and find it, cause that is about all they have to do. Great people to have in a guild, but they are ruining the economy.

Lack of Players This has to be one of the worse offenders. How can you sell something to someone that isn't in the game? Craft 200 sets of armor for T1 people, but there aren't 200 T1 people on to buy the armor. Some will complain that they are all PLed up to T3, so you make T3 armor but they still don' tneed it. This may be because of problem people #1 and #2, or it may be a true lack of new people. Heck even trying to give stuff away can fall on deaf ears. "Anyone want 2000 bulk of foods?" Will go unanswered.

I think ultimately, much of the problem is that there isn't alot to do, except grind. You choose your grind. Craft Grind, money Grind, Level grind. Dragons have a problem because they only have Craft Grind (and they cap), money Grind, and level grind (and they cap).

Others see the grind as evil and will claim that it is your own fault for rushing through the content that is there. Though much of the content isn't really there.

Others will see the "final product" of the grind as evil. The MCers that have ground out levels for the last 7+ montsh. Instead of just doing one class and sticking with it, they have chosen not to have 2000000 Million XP over 100, and instead took 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th. . . Classes. These evil people then use this new found abilities to become the #3 person above.

Others, will say it is the over abundance of options that is the problem. That by removing options, and making HZ like other game (i.e. very tightly tied classes) the game will get better, and the #4 people (missing) will come back in droves to play a game just like other games, but with less support, and no events (Small staff you know).

Others will blame the "super monsters" on why people are so high leveled, showing that pre-merge when there were weekly events, and alot of people to sell to, and alot of things to do, that the addition of Group XP is what ruined the game (not the disappearence of weekly events, alot of people and many things to do).

And even others will say, it is the "multi-classers" that have ruined this game. This can be proven that after the events left, and the things to keep people busy left, many people multi-classed heavily around the same time people started leaving in droves, and thus the Multi-classing (guarenteed) has been the cause of many people leaving.

But I for one think it is something different.
I think the post merge world of Istaria is a quiet place, devoid of many of the events, people, structure and chatter that was there pre-merge. The new Istaria is composed of fiefdoms, where guilds support their own, and players with patience continue their daily grind in the face of what is missing.

The economy isn't alive because there isn't alot of fresh blood, and what does come in is quickly jaded to the "can you make me this armor" style of play. The higher levels can make more money PBing what they make, and it makes sense to as there is no one to buy it. The good hearted people, give away their efforts (services, items, techs, forms, help with quests) quietly going back to their grind afterwards.

My guild has had many WoWers, and GW people comback complaining of the "structure" and boredom of WoW and GW. Where a cleric can only ever be a cleric. But the world is alive with people, and so they continously wander back and forth, playing Horizons to fill some need, and playing WoW and other games to have some "purpose", or to participate in some event.

So Altair, I do think you are dead on. There isn't one problem with Istaria, such as MCing that has made people leave, or ruined the economy. Nadia and them are not the "sin" that people make them out to be, nor is the PBs the ultimate evil in the game. Together with a bunch of other things, as well as things that have gone in the past they have contributed to where we are now.

Some don't mind, they happily grind away at levels, money, crafting, plots.
Others feel that removal of one of the things, or all of the things will magically restore Istaria, and have proof that it will.
Others will say "hang in there" it will get better, you have to have patience.

Me, I think the addition of things to do would help alot, but I won't guarentee it.

All in all, we all pay our monthly subscription, we all keep logging into the game, and we all keep doing our thing the way we want. And to me that is the most important thing there is. That the people still in the game don't leave, and that hopefully they can actually find more enjoyment as time progresses.

I think the motto of any change (sorry stealing this from another post) should be.

"Do no harm."

[Jayne]

Well Digit my friend I totally agree with that!

So yes I do pay monthly fees and log on and do what I want.

I think its to late to start doing these changes a little at a time because if there not all fixed at once it will lead to other problems.

I guess just throw some content/quests in there when you can and be done with it.

Its really not fair to change anything unless it was a fix done immediately aftera particularproblem arose. People are already used to the precedent thats been created.

Jayne

[Phillip]

"Im just curious whyalot of peoplewant to jump on the "multi-classed adventurers are ruining this game" bandwagon."

dragons, single adv/MC crafters, or both.

they built the wagon.

[Altair]

"Im just curious whyalot of peoplewant to jump on the "multi-classed adventurers are ruining this game" bandwagon."

dragons, single adv/MC crafters, or both.

they built the wagon.

Its 2am and i just want to say I find that helarious!

Alt

[BKBanzai]

hahaha

all too true

Sadly, bring up anything to do with the evils of multi-classed crafters and omg, talk about an uproar.

Crafters get way too many advantages that adventurers don't get.

Crafters are able to use skills gained and don't have to deal with some being masterable and some not.

Crafters don't have to deal with getting to 2x the earned level of a skill to be able to keep/use it.

Hmnnn....

Maybe crafters need some more challenges in this game...oh wait, nm, all the old timer crafters have pretty much all or most of them up to level 100 anyway.....

[Akuluxtraxas]

As i posted elsewhere the classes and multiclassing is a core you build around and balance conten off. at current state everyone who chooses can do everything crafter and adventure and this removes roles and has put soloing as Hz's permier activity.

I look at multi first because if i wanted to redo content and add things id want a balanced and under control system so it enticed all players and promoted teamwork while allowing soloing but not making soloing so much more rewarding that groups.

you have to build a solid foundation (balanced and unique classes and a fun and yet limited multi system where less transfers and some reansfer at much reduced effect). from that foundation you can create events,challenges,rebalance mobs and a lot more. this is both craft and adventure balance not just adventure and includes every race and class and each needs both additions and losses

its certainly not the only issue Altair by any means your 100% right but i feel its where you start as its a foundation

[Joaqim]

I look at multi first because if i wanted to redo content and add things id want a balanced and under control system so it enticed all players and promoted teamwork while allowing soloing but not making soloing so much more rewarding that groups.

Sorry, but you're wrong at this point, I was playing mostly Solo for quite a long time and needed to find out, that if you're pretty high in rating and are looking for good XP a group of 3-4 (may even high multiclassed) with area dmg, CoT and healing power works best for all in group around the Fyakki place.

Btw. I think it's simply wrong to put the rare stuff exatly to Mobs like the lvl 120 Fyakki. *lol* the 1st day I was just solo killing with single one-by-one pulls as I was semi afk as I had also other things to do and finished with two "The Rancors".

[Tryagain]

Im just curious whyalot of peoplewant to jump on the "multi-classed adventurers are ruining this game" bandwagon. Thats not the only problem with this game,and it is onlyone ofmany major reasons the economy in this game is so screwy. Lets take a look at some of the other issues.

Super Multi-classed crafters - Very bad for a supposed player based economy Whats the point for anyone to buy anything when in reality and in most cases they can just make whatever item they need for themselves? Or the fact that a new player can't beat them on pricing due to the fact that it takes some one new 3 to 10 times the time and effort to make it.

Pawnbrokers - Why bother trying to sell refined resources or finished goods when you can get the money for them right now off of a pawnbroker. Also it makes crafters lazy and they dont generally bother stocking consigners with the lower lvl tools needed for newer player. Not saying they are not willing to help out but whats the point when you can make garunteed money?

Nadia - Every has the same complaint here, well mostly. Whats the point in hunting up what you need when you can just pawnbroker stuff and buy it. I find it pretty sad when you offer up 100s to a newer player in Marketplace chatfor 10 t3 tech comps and the responce is it takes to much time and why dont you just buy them??? And they want to sit and complain about being broke???



These are just 3 of the many things that i see wrong with the game.... Go ahead and flame away thats all that seems to happen around here anyways.


Altair Argannon
EoI

yup yup

I agree....

The ability to unlimit multiclass a crafter killed the economy fast and just is sorry not realistic as to in game setups in general. But then as well if you do something now it would be a mistake. Why ? there are simply not enough people playing horizons to support a crafter centric game with limited multiclassing in crafts. People do jack of all trades now cause well... ummm what else is there for a crafter to do ? No one really gets orders anymore and community projects have long since stopped. So then people take up X trades and just grind away one level after another.... cause well thats all there is to do.

So for their next game I would suggest limiting crafting with the anticipation that the game would have the players to truely support a crafter centric game.

its to late to change anything now. But instead use this as a lesson of what not to do in the future which I bet Tulga has been at least taking notes on. Horizons is if anything a good lesson for Tulga and any MMO dev as to what works and what does not work.

[Pharcellus]

I agree Altair.

There is alot "fundamentally" wrong, and people jump on MC.

No, MC is the "topic du jour". If you read back in the forums for a few pages, you will see other "topics du jour" that are debated as well.

THAT is what Kumu was trying to say, and he is 100% correct.

If MCing and the class system weren't also fundamental problems, they wouldn't be the hot topic that they are.

So Altair, I do think you are dead on. There isn't one problem with Istaria, such as MCing that has made people leave, or ruined the economy. Nadia and them are not the "sin" that people make them out to be, nor is the PBs the ultimate evil in the game. Together with a bunch of other things, as well as things that have gone in the past they have contributed to where we are now.

..and I can't find anywhere that anyone has said or even implied such. Instead, we keep seeing threads spawn that claim that we are ignoring other, more serious problems. The truth is, we aren't. It either comes from ignorance of the rest of the posts in the forums, or it is a thinly-disguised red herring to change the topic because it is uncomfortable for some.

There have been no end of "Kill Nadia" threads, no end of "nerf the pawnbroker" threads, no end of "broken economy" threads, no end of "give us something to do other than grind" threads, et cetera ad nauseum. Nothing has changed as a result of discussing MCing _today_. None of those other topics cancel out the MCing issue any more than the MCing issue cancels them out.

I think the motto of any change (sorry stealing this from another post) should be.

"Do no harm."

To whom? Sometimes, inaction is as harmful as action. Do nothing, harm continues (and, in some cases, gets worse); do something, new harm is wrought. How do you resolve such a quandry with that philosophy?

Sometimes you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

[Seikojin]

:o
You know... If there was a rating cap then we wouldn't have any of these issues... *Remembers talking about it alot*

[Guinness]

Multicrafters haven't killed the economy, Grimlik, that couldn't be further from the truth. Problems with the economy run much deeper are are linked the the pawn broker and the vielo. I'm pretty sure a dev said in one thread awhile agothat they don't see heavy multcrafting as a harm to the game (hence craft rating not doing anything). From what I observe on chaos, that statement represents the truth.

The vast majority of multicrafters sell goods in 1 (one) market if any at all. There are many reasons for this, some enjoy the leveling more, some get annoyed when customers miscount and bring the wrong stuff, some get annoyed by price wars, etc. In fact, people still ask quite often in the chaos marketplace for cargo armor and tools a fair bit.

Furthermore, for the longest time the person who had the right techs got the business. It didn't matter if you had 100 craft levels or 1000 craft levels, if you didn't have the techs, people weren't going to ask you to make stuff.

Point number 3 is that someone who has been in one market for a long time will continue to get business as long as they do a good job. I can make jewellery, but even people in my own guild don't ask me to do so, they ask the guy who has always been a jeweller. There is a certain knowledge that is accumulated by doing orders over time - regarding what techs go where and how to best layout your gear. This is what separates a "powerleveled" jeweller from a "legendary" jeweller. There was even a multicwrafter in our guild (1300+ craft levels I believe) who was commenting the other day on the fact nobody in our guild ever asks him to make anything. EVER. Why? Because he's never been a specialist, but always a generalist. It isn't because I keep tacking on more craft levels, it's because we've had specialists of each type for quite awhile.

Just to touch quickly on another point, I don't charge for goods because I got tired with the headache associated with it. No matter how low you set your prices, somebody will always say it is too high. My prices were never that high, and people commonly paid far more than what I asked for. However, after a couple folks went out of their way to try and make my life miserable, I couldn't be bothered setting prices anymore. I play the game to enjoy myself, not squabble over such things. I'm happy, you pay what you want, so you are happy. The economy is an unfortunate casualty in this situation.

[Pharcellus]

Good post, Guinness.

You're absolutely correct that having the knowledge vs not having the knowledge makes the difference between who would get orders and who wouldn't. Not just knowing the class well, but also having the capability through formulae and techs.

That's another one of my big pet peeves of the game, the way knowledge is acquired. There's no challenge to being a Master crafter, and, like adventure multiclassing, there's no advantage to being a dedicated crafter, either. Everyone can master everything (well, except Dragons, obviously), and it gets ridiculously easy to level additional crafting classes. My alt levelled Weaponsmith from 0 to 800+ base skill in less than 12 hours. Really sad.

I take a little different approach with customers. I have my price for my services, and they can pay it or find someone else. I support an economy, and wish there were other factors in-place to make it happen.

[Joaqim]

If MCing and the class system weren't also fundamental problems, they wouldn't be the hot topic that they are.

Yeah, but even if the meanwhile well known anti-MC fraction is repeating their opinion in a craft focused post, the topic doesn't become hotter.
Hehe anyone remembers the old time everyone was saying, balacing is not really needed as there is no PvP?



btw. one point I want to add to the initial post about the high multiclassed bipets - it isn't much other then a high lvl craft dragon, they could also craft all equipment they ever need themself as well (OK OK, except the cargo disc)

[Phillip]

"Hehe anyone remembers the old time everyone was saying, balacing is not really needed as there is no PvP?"

haha yeah i remember very well. also the lootphobes pouncing on anyone who wanted loot cuz it's a community game. yeah a community asbig as thenumber of developers (who's busy playing another MMORPG hahaha).