Is it time for the Vielo to leave?

[imported_Sablisk]

All those statements are overly simplified to the point where they aremisleading.

However this one is not true.

"The Vielo would not be needed, If remaining comps not in game, were either introduced or changed to something in game"

Gold sinks are allways needed to prevent runaway inflation.

[Aamer Khan]

so making more complex statements would not be misleading?

I was just restating things I have heard in all these threads.

Besides, you have to have a working economy before there is the possibility for runaway inflation. Before the Vielo, what did we have? Portal fees and ambrosia. Way more money enters the game than leaves it... STILL.

They have already introduced an increase in portal fees to those that port with a full disk.
Better ways can be found to remove excess gold than the vielo. They were a stop-gap measure, and a solution.

[Guaran]

Nadia didn't ruin the economy. Her prices are too high to do that, other than CAP the price adventurers would get away with charging, if she was removed.

Guilds broke the economy, providing everything free. That, coupled with players who craft for free for anyone, sets low price expectations for goods.

The conversation looks at the economy from the adventurers point of view, who saturated the market with forms, but who were at first spoiled by exploiting crafters and charging 1g+ for forms or techs. No form or tech is worth that much. Now theres no form market. For Tech Comps, all you need to doto get a market going for these is go hunt them and sell them. Nadia doesn't keep you from doing that.

Certain comps like Blue fringes and Vet chest skulls drop too infrequently to have an adequate supply to the demand.

[gusi]

The drop rates seem fine for me, with only a few bad runs (30+ killed and no Fringes/Fins/Wind Vapors). Trouble is finding the mobs - Zombie Ogres are a prime example.

[Pharcellus]

Well, I have been hunting on the Satyr Isles for comps for the last two weeks. I rarely pull more than 10-12 comps per 6-hour period, and I do surgical strikes specifically targeting the "rare drop" mobs.

Quite often, I have those 30+ kill, no (or one) comp drop runs.

I know what they say the percentages are, but they are too coarse and allow for too wide a variance in hunts.

NO one wants to have back-to-back dry runs repeatedly.

[imported_Sablisk]

Besides, you have to have a working economy before there is the possibility for runaway inflation. Before the Vielo, what did we have? Portal fees and ambrosia. Way more money enters the game than leaves it... STILL.

It dose work, just not vary well. The primary problem is we havethe foundation for aneconmic model wich was designed for a much larger player base then what we have in horizons. This was then modifed to take into acount the realities of ourplayer numbersleaving us with a bastardization of half measures in need of refinement.

They have already introduced an increase in portal fees to those that port with a full disk.

Yes and that was definatly a step in the right direction. It added a much desired aspect to the game while at the same time giving us another outletin the system for gold. By doing it in this fashion AE created a win/win situation that did not alianate or drive off any of thier players yet at the same time took another step towards a stable economy

Better ways can be found to remove excess gold than the vielo. They were a stop-gap measure, and a solution.

If you makethat to read "aditional ways could be foundsimilarto the disk porting change"I would agree with you.

By far the bigest impact to the game of simply elemiating the vielo and pawn brokers would be the creation of a new elite class of players such as you, I, and a few others,who can kill anything in game in mass quanities.

The cost of this would be to completly alienate the dedicated crafters who lack eather the RL phisical reflexes or adventure skills needed for that activity. They would become horizons new underclass

This may come as a suprise to some, but those crafters who rarly fight when its avoidibledo make up the majority of the subscribers who are most likely to stick with the the game in the long haul, even if they do tend to keep relitivly quiet in voiceing thier opinions.

Yes some things need to be done.

Aditional gold sinks are needed but ones that add to the gaming experance such as the new disk porting rather then subtract from it and drive away players such as removing the pawners and vielo would.

We allso needmore reasons to hunt or fight then grinding out simi pointless adventure levels. But thier its a mistake force those who dont enjoy thathuntingto do it as well.

[Joaqim]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Joaqim wrote: Kwinn,

just one question, have you ever tried to hunt down your own, "ugly" tech comps like Blue/Red Vexator Fringes orKwellen Energy Nodes in reasonable amount?

Yes, I have hunted all of them. Are they easy? No Do they drop well? No

Now, my turn for a question Do you want instant gratification or do you want to have to struggle a bit to get what you want?

For myself, I don't mind the struggle. It makes the achievement of a goal, any goal, sweeter. Instant gratification, IMO, cheapens everything
Kwinn

Good. I can speak only for myself, but hunting the same spot with the same Mobs over and over again for several weeks, to get alone the mentioned vexator fringes.....well for me it would be about as boring as doing fecking Pawnie runs. Removing those rare Comps now....for more crafting players it would be even a lot more pawnie runs to get the money to "pull" the hunters from the lvl 120 or with pawn removed as well ....muahahahaha.... well I guess the easiest way for them would be going to Fyakki and ask for some PL.
Well, I was out hunting that stufffor 4-5hlast night (was a little focused on Kwellen, if some were in sight):
4 Blue Vexator Fringes
3Red Vexator Fringes
3Kwellen Engery Nodes
2 Vet Abnomination Chest skulls
2 Zombie Ogre Toe (was luckilyrunning into one of those by accident)
Several vet blight bindings, some zombie werewolf skulls.
Loads of fiakky chittin, spider venoms, forms, techs and hoard drops.

Oh yes and 3 DP's....

[Kwinn]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]gusi wrote: We must all remember that Nadia was ONLY introduced for one reason. To provide the tech comps that weren't in-game yet. If you ask me, it was idiotic to put EVERY comp on her.

That migth have been the problem at start, she did not just get the "not in game" comps, she got them all.

Untill the adventurerer increase and start putting those comps on connies, I see no reason to remove her.

Solution, that migth be hard to program; if a comps in a connie somewhere, maybe Nadia stock pile should be empty.

------------
As to the advocate to remove her. Aren't you sure your problem is not:1) you can't sale the comps you have, or 2) you can't grind to get the cash to buy

I don't have that many comps presently, but the ones I get sell fast. I don't need to grind, I have ample coin for my needs. My point is that the economy is broken. For that matter, we play in a 'non-user friendly' world. It is almost impossible to get something made without having to visit an NPC, spam MP for crafter, spam MP for comps, grind for coin because no-one has anything for sale, and grind lvls because practically everyone is moving toward being self-reliant.

We need an economy that is player controlled, not NPC controlled. We need interaction beyond saying Hello in the chat channels. We need more players. How many new players, I wonder, left because of the first two conditions?


Kwinn

[imported_Zayin]

The real problem with the economy is many guilds provide everything to its members for free. The economy was broken before Nadia and would continue to be broken without Nadia. But I do agree that putting all the comps on her was a mistake, she should only have the comps not in game as she was intended. I just dont think one issue will magically fix the economy.

[Jayne]

This has been said so many times I should just save my response in word and paste it.

I hunt and sell comps all the time, so I don't see the problem with Nadia. And since Nadia has a set price I can price my comps less based off of her prices.

If Nadia were gone I think the prices would go up or at a minimum equal what Nadia was selling them for. Now this maybe good depending on how you look at it, but when I was trying to buy my comps when I couldn't kill the creatures to get them, the prices seemed very high to me.

But then again I am not a crafter so I don't go out and do what you mentioned, so I guess the adventures would suffer?

Jayne

[Bori Grimbattle]

As an added point to discuss, what if the resource nodes that are harvested gave a "chance" to have a "bonus component"? This was brought up before and AE/TG but has not been mentioned since. If Slate nodes would yield up "slate golem chips" and yew trees "yew treant knots" it would provide an alternate means of gaining the component. Lets admit it, how many adventurers would bother to collect low level components?

Components should be more readily available, especialy in the lower tiers that would allow a crafter to apply what techs he can and still put up for consignment tools, weapons, armor at a REASONABLE price so he is assured of a sale. Nobody wants to buy untech'd items do they? The rarer items, such as vextor fringes which can only be found on a vextor (lore wise as well) could be provided by the adventurers.

So what would this do to the economy? Many crafters would tech and stock their wares on the connies. As each crafter may tech that sword a different way there would be more choices to choose from. The adventurer would either buy from the connie or contact the crafter if he wants a particular combination of techs. The adventurer would hunt the "mob only" drops and connie them and items using these components would reflect that extra cost.

As it is at present, if I get a commision for a weapon/tool, the adventurer provides the comps and all I provide is 5 minutes and an handful of bars/bricks/boards. So I, like many crafters do not charge. As well, I seldom stock connies other then Starter towns as established players do not want untech'd items.

Then take the Vielo out.

[Deth]

Ok so you wantto remove the pawn brokers. Then riddle me this batman? How do I, a crafter dragon(no I am not making this a biped vs dragon issue) or Crafter Biped only player make cash to by my new craft scales? Or craft cargo armour? I might be able to trade to a high level adventure for a set. But thats only if one of the other dragons have not crafted him a set or he has not crafted him self a set. How am I to have the craft set I need to be able to craft triple teched Tier V scales if I my self do not have Tier V or tier IV set already to sell to this person?

People Say Remove Vielo to make adventures want to hunt more. I say as other have said undercut the Vielo and people whill buy. Me I stoped asking for componets on the market channel because 90% of the time I got silence also. When I need componets the First thing I do is go to the comunity site and see what is up for sale there. most of the time I see a few low level componts there. If adventures put it up on the Imperial Consigners they would sale but the problem is I think people feel due to the low drop rate they should be able to charge more but the Vielo Cap out the price. Or people do not like traveling all the way to a Imperial Consigner.

Last night I asked on market and got 2 directions for 6 componets I needed. ! was Kwinns consigner that had a lot of componets of a wide kind. If some one had not kindly pointed me there I would have never know it. I was able to get one set of componets I needed for under half the Vielo Price. I and Kwinn are now happy. The other was directed to Aug by some one that set them up.The Community site had not updated but would have seen them in time. Again Vielo was shut out and I and anotherplayer was happy. Now what about the other 4 componts I need? I will keep grining away at coin and ask from time to time in Market and hope other wise I would never get what I need if the Vielo was not around.

I would really like it if they could also put personal consigners on the web page also as it makes it a lot easyer to find what you want. I am not going to fly around looking at every consigner in the hopes of finding what I need.

[Helcat]

We must all remember that Nadia was ONLY introduced for one reason. To provide the tech comps that weren't in-game yet. If you ask me, it was idiotic to put EVERY comp on her.

Is the way she is being used now the way she was intended to be used? Definately not.

Again, we must all remember that techs (in the devs' view) are supposed to be rare. Not do one day of PB grinding and then have a completely new set of armor/cargo/jewelry/whatever.

Bingo.

[imported_Silveron]

Then lets take an intermediate step towards removing her. Limit her inventory down to a finite number maybeless than25 of each item. Currently she restocksat least every tuesday with the maintence shutdown.If she sells out too bad you have to wait orfind a player willing to part with extras. Now if she restocks more frequently that would have to be adjusted as well.

[gusi]

She currently restocks instantly Silveron. As do any other form/tech dealers.

[Brokta]

okay the whole limited stock idea is a bust for those of us who play in non primetime hours.

Brokta
Dragon of Order

[Aamer Khan]

What im finding curious in this thread, is there are more dragons NOT wanting the vielo gone, than bipeds.

So far, the only statment I made earlier that was considered false was whether the vielo are actually needed if all comps were available.

Remember that if you remove the PB, you need to provide new players a method to make money for at least the first tier. After that time, they should have strated making money in ways other then PB runs.

The Vielo were a stop-gap measure. NOT a solution.

If ALL comps were available to adventurers to collect, then the ONLY purpose the Vielo serve is a money sink. Yes, they make it convient to get what you need quick. But are you actually complaining about having to hunt to get your comps?

I wonder about drop rates myself. some say they are fine, some say not high enough. In just casual play, with 2 others archers we can pick up 20-30 skulk fins in a hour. In less than 2, ( and while mining ) I was able to get 17 mith frags. Yew knots are also easy. Every time we take a group to the Vex's we always get fringes... not as fast as yew knots, but plenty fast enough. So, if solo dragons have a hard time, why not group up to collect them faster? What really is the issue? That the drop rate is too poor, or you think you should be able to solo collect everything you need for your techs in 2 hours time? Is speed the real issue?

[Bori Grimbattle]

As far as the Pawnbrokers go, once again, until the server populations go up, there is a restricted market for goods of ANY Tier. Until the "Flow" of commerce is fixed either by increasing populations or introducing some sort of degradation of items the PBs are a necessary evil.

[Pharcellus]

What im finding curious in this thread, is there are more dragons NOT wanting the vielo gone, than bipeds.

I want the Vielo gone, but I also want some other things taken care of before they go away.

Remember that if you remove the PB, you need to provide new players a method to make money for at least the first tier. After that time, they should have strated making money in ways other then PB runs.

When you remove pawn brokers, then the only reliable source of coin will be adventuring.

If ALL comps were available to adventurers to collect, then the ONLY purpose the Vielo serve is a money sink. Yes, they make it convient to get what you need quick. But are you actually complaining about having to hunt to get your comps?

In some ways, I love hunting for my own comps. The problem is that my luck with drops is horrid. It doesn't matter to me if someone else gets 1 drop per every two mobs. I am lucky to get 1 drop every 20 mobs (components, not other kinds of drops). That, coupled with the STUPID, LOUSY BUGS that still exist today and have for months really ruin the experience. Lastly, hunting for comps is nothing more than just another grind. It is no more "fun" in this regard than making 20-30 pawn broker runs and then heading to Nadia.

I wonder about drop rates myself. some say they are fine, some say not high enough. In just casual play, with 2 others archers we can pick up 20-30 skulk fins in a hour. In less than 2, ( and while mining ) I was able to get 17 mith frags. Yew knots are also easy. Every time we take a group to the Vex's we always get fringes... not as fast as yew knots, but plenty fast enough. So, if solo dragons have a hard time, why not group up to collect them faster? What really is the issue? That the drop rate is too poor, or you think you should be able to solo collect everything you need for your techs in 2 hours time? Is speed the real issue?

My experience:

We went on a guild hunt recently to the swamp. In six hours, we got 30-odd blood skulk fins, 10 or so purple tarantula venom, and a few snouts. SIX HOURS with a party of 4 people (average, we had people come in and go out of the group during the hunt).

I worked mithrilfor a couple weeks to raise Armorer and Weaponsmith into T5. I only killed golems when they were in my way, or when more convenient than going in search of more nodes. Mith frags dropped pretty good, but I still only saw maybe 1 in 10 golems.

For the last two weeks, I hunted on Dahibi and Elnath, specifically focusing on Vexators, Abominations, Zombie Ogres, and Kwellen groups. I also took out the occasional Zombie, Skeleton, or Ghost. I killed around a hundred-fifty Vexators (12 fringes), 40-50 Zombie Ogres (2 toes), about 100 Abominations (10 Skulls), 30 Kwellen (1 Energy Node), and at least a hundred assorted undead (about 12 other comps). I had about 10 death points from invisible mobs, stuck buttons, and my own fatigue. I blew half a million hoard, and the hoard drops didn't even come close to making up for it (Vexators take two, sometimes 3 Gold Rages for me to kill).

The problem is the drops are too random. The system is too coarse and variable. Some of the most commonly-requested and needed techs require the hardest and most scarce mobs, and they need a lot of them. Speed is an issue, because when hunting turns into grinding because it takes for frickin' ever to get one stupid comp to drop and because the game is still so FUBAR, I find I'd rather be playing another game.

I don't like spending my money, because I want to have a shot at getting a great Lair when they come out, but I got so frustrated after dying again from another invisible mob, I said "screw it!" and went and dropped 1gp on the comps needed to make some jewelry for my alt. I'll just have to grind out a few extra hours of gems or whatever to the pawn broker at some point to make up for it. Definitely less frustrating than trying to hunt them up.

[imported_Sablisk]

Remember that if you remove the PB, you need to provide new players a method to make money for at least the first tier. After that time, they should have strated making money in ways other then PB runs.

Before trying to get get the pawners removed come up with a practical replacement that is fair to the player base as a whole

The Vielo were a stop-gap measure. NOT a solution.

I couldn't disagree with that more. The vielo are not a stop gap measure but rather a partial solution that needs to be taken farther with other aditions such as the new disk porting in order to createa heathy economy.

Yes some people can getcomps at a decent rate when grouped with a few other 150+ rated char's, some of us can even do it solo,but for the vast majority that is simply not posible.

Remove the vielo and those people would be screwed. Its not like you can go out and expect to find comps like kwelen energy nodes or any of the other non-farmible comps on a connie.

Heck even for high rated char it can be imposible to get most comps if they are not fortune enough to live in an area with broad band. Im rated 170 in one of my main classes and found I coundn't get anything other then DP's when i tried hunting in most T5 areas on a dial up conection.

Please take some time to think about what thiese changes would meen to othersbeforeposting them.