Low level mob balance vs. high level mob balance

[mbaucco]

Hello,

I am new-ish, so I have spent most of my hunting time in New Brommel and the near fringes of Lesser Aradoth around Kion. I have noticed that I can not solo creatures my level without great risk, I.e. I pop every single ability I have and I can still lose, an add is certain death.

I think even low level monsters have been balanced on the assumption that the player will be totally tricked out, and I think that is a bad idea. New players solo a lot while they learn the ropes, and they rarely even have equipment adequate for their level, let alone teched gear.

I stopped playing my first character (a mage) simply because I never had enough money or gear which made fighting mobs even one level below me a painful process. In some cases, it took five minutes to kill a monster my level, and I ended up far far away from the spot I pulled the monster from.

My new character (a Scout) is doing a bit better, but only because many on Order have helped me out with gear and forms. Since this is not something one can count on, I wonder if it might not be better to:

a) make sub-20 mobs a little easier to kill.

b) make the loot drops a little better.

Nothing is more frustrating than spending 5 minutes to kill a mob only to find that the "treasure" consists of one maggot hide or some sand (!). At low levels it is very difficult to find forms or techs, and the mechanisms to acquire tokens and markers are kind of slow. If there was a slightly better chance of acquiring tokens, markers, forms and techs that would be a big improvement. You may also want to slightly increase hoardable drops for Dragon chars, though I do not play a dragon so I am not sure.

I am not saying sub 20 monsters should be monty haul loot drops, just saying the difficulty to reward ratio is too low right now.

Comments? Rants?

Thanks,
Matt
aka Bazzikathiss on Order

[gusi]

Aye, I agree. Especially considering the lack of abilities at lower lvls, which makes it even harder.

[Aamer Khan]

I will say that teched gear and full armor sure will help even the playing field.

But, my experience with my lvl 14 mage is that you just need to try all different mobs to see which ones you can handle. zombies are what I cut my teeth on, and then at lvl 11 I went to kion for beetles. Granted, I have to be careful, and its a bit of a grind to have to kill tons of beetles to level, but its very easy and balanced with the right mob.

I get beat up by lvl 12 spiders. Treants are also very tough. So, I stick to what my class and skills will allow me to hunt. Scout will be a bit of a challenge too. You can kite and keep your distance, but don't hit that hard, so it takes time to down mobs that give the better exp.

My suggestion is to pace yourself. Find mobs that you can damage well, and stick with them for awhile, and get your levels up. Its never a bad thing to add some cleric to the mix so that you can survive better and keep your downtime short.

[Senkeleron Fell]

Nothing actually says you have to fight a mob that is equal to your level. Sure you get less exp, but sometimes you can get more exp over time by finding a mob that you can kill without getting too much damage in the process. Then you can kill more of them over the same amount of time.

[mbaucco]

I guess my point is that NEW players will not know all this, I did not know that certain mobs were pierce resistant, and as far as I know there is no way to know except by trial and error. Making the early levels a little more user friendly might help get and keep new players.

I appreciate the suggestions though, and I will certainly put them in the noob guide I am writing.

-Matt

[Gliding Frost]

I guess my point is that NEW players will not know all this, I did not know that certain mobs were pierce resistant, and as far as I know there is no way to know except by trial and error. Making the early levels a little more user friendly might help get and keep new players.

I appreciate the suggestions though, and I will certainly put them in the noob guide I am writing.

-Matt

You're correct, new players don't know that. I think part of the intent of the game is for them to figure it out... That type of trial and error is part of a lot of RPGs, ignoring the MMO part....

[Aamer Khan]

Thats how we all learn.

I won't say its not frustrating, but with a smal amount of trial an error it can be figured out.

One thing I keep hearing is that things should be easier are faster, but why?

If it takes you 6 months to get to 100 in a class is that somehow a problem?

If your friends are all higher and you want to hunt with them, then work it out to hunt mobs a bit closer to your level. If you hunt solo, then what I suggested will just lead to more fun, as you discover new mobs to hunt, and new tactics to use.

[mbaucco]

I agree, trial and error is certainly part of the fun, but taking 5 minutes to kill a mob and getting one maggot hide is not. I am sorry to disagree, but I think low level mob balance is in need of tweaking.

I never said low level mobs should be easy; note that I said low level mobs should not be balanced with the assumption that the player will be teched out and have level appropriate gear. You can not expect low level (sub 20) players to have these things, and if you couple that with a lack of abilities AND an incomplete knowledge of the game, you don't get a challenge, you get frustration and tedium.

Also, I would have never known that monsters had varying resistances until someone told me. Trial and error is one thing, but some basic information needs to be known. Perhaps more lore and low level quests would help, with a grizzled NPC giving a few hints as to which monsters have weaknesses so a new player will at least have the opportunity to find out these mechanisms exist.

Keep in mind that Horizon's free trial lasts seven days. A non-twinked player will not be very likely to stick with a game on the assumption that "things will get better eventually". The early levels are a perfect time to really get people into the game, but balancing low level mobs the same way you balance high level mobs is a sure way to frustrate a true beginner.

-Matt

[imported_tjl]

I think you are correct mbaucco, there does need to be more info on mosters ingame, from NPCs. Players are a great source of info, but it might be more fun if newbs can find out this info for themselves, be it through quests and other dicussions with NPCs. The trophy hunters would be a good place to put some of this info, as they offer quests for specific creatures.

If you have not already posted about your thoughts on monster loot, do so in this thread:
[link]http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=75805[/url]

[Tryagain]

imagine that...

Mobs are resistant to certain attacks ? Not a new idea in the MMO industry and Horizons does make use of this.

But it would be nice if the trophy hunters might give an idea because NOT everyone knows that this is common place in the MMO industry and Horizons makes massive use of this idea. More so than most I have seen. Why ? cause not everyone has the time or inclination to go find every mob that is their level in game and decide which one simply dies better to their attacks. But some may see this as appeasing "Lazy players". I wouldn't believe so but some around here would I'm sure. User friendliness just another idea to help ease people into the adventuring side of the game.

[Senkeleron Fell]

That is an excellent idea, have the trophy hunters, and perhaps the trainers (they are supposed to be trainers..) give hints as to the strengths and weaknesses of mobs. Things that they are resistant to and things they are vulnerable to.

[Ennakae]

One thing I keep hearing is that things should be easier are faster, but why?

Actually, no one said that. What it sounds like new players are asking for in this and other threadsis more In-Game information --not to have to rely on OOG or OOCknowledge to make useful decisions for their character. Someone pointed out that figuring things out was part of an adventure game. Well, yes! A great part! ...but consider this...

In real life, the way I figure out if I have really, really, slapped someone hard is mostly by visual and auditory cue. There is no hp bar, no message reading "You have hit the offending party for 5 points annoyance damage!" It wouldn't be rational to think that you could do without these things in a game, however. So, there has to be a balance if you want a game that is reasonable to fight and adventure in, but also conducive to roleplay. Also, it would seem prettylogical to me that a dagger or bow would be pretty useless against a creature made of rock, but in this game,it's not.A trainer could explain why this is. That would give them agreat opportunity to become something to characters other than fancy sign posts (and make something that seems like it makes no sense into something that makes the game world more unique!).

A trophy hunter could have a special story about a certain item/body partof power on a creature (that coincidentally is also the trophy) -- thusexplaining why these trophies are more valued than other 'loot,' broadening NPC roles, and giving us level appropriate, in game, incharacter information.

Charging up an extra pc or minimizing your window to find online information for something your character should very clearly suspect by now, or for something to benefit your character that he/she would not know, is not conducive to storyand does not add to game aesthetic. Having to ask another player the answer to something your trainer (et al) probably would have told you is not either.

Of course certain things are going to be resistant to certain attacks, but assuming that still doesn't give you any idea of what or where.I can be killed by wolves all week and still not be sure if it's becauseof their attacks, my attacks, their armour, my armour, my school, spell choice, mystrategy, luck of the dice,etc. Being able to find out in-game and within the story is always better than having to ask Google.

[Vahrokh]

One thing I keep hearing is that things should be easier are faster, but why?

If it takes you 6 months to get to 100 in a class is that somehow a problem?

Many players come from other games like WoW, where the player is completely tutored on everything he has to do and can level to max in few days if that is wanted (not saying if it's good or bad, just where they "learn" those "needs").

Since Hz lacks on the information part, I think it's sort a "Community Task" to teach the newcomers that Hz is different and based in often more difficult concepts to grasp.

I.e. in WoW you get damage resistant mobs when you are high level enough to be told by others and the mobs show a "(Immune)" message if you attack them with the wrong damage type.

Another thing the guy has to learn is that in Hz you do not NEED to level up on a certain mob (other games force you that by giving you some Kill XX quest you must do else no shiny at the end).

I had it very easy with the dragon since few mobs would be immune or resistant (but the 0/0/0/0 at gold rageyou learn to hate when you hit some spr or similar mob is here), while with my reaver alt I learned how some mobs were just silly to kill with melee (dodge ratio of 90%) so I either moved on others of same level or used the SPR part of reaver to see if they'd die. Some resist both melee and SPR and then I am out of luck and I really have to move to others.

This is another piece of information I'd add in some tutorial or WEB site.
And now I learnt why people won't usually ask for info on general or marketplace: in other games, a guy calling for help or be taught something is either:

- completely ignored (the norm)
- some ************ will start bashing on the poor newbie like "quit yer whinning and learn to play", "STFU n00b" etc. etc. expecially if said newbie expresses "concerns".

So an introduction to the game would really find a good place in a starter town.
"Starter town" should have a meaning besides "newbie spawning point".

I found that the best way to teach is to make a quest like this and assign it to one of those newbie NPCs:

"Kill monsters, collect "The Lore Tome" pages and bring them to me and I will give you <insert here nice newbie shinie>".

At quest completion the NPC will give you the book as single item you can read at will.
In that book you toss everything a newbie should know. Works miracles.