So you want to fix the economy? Here are my suggestions...

[EmilyDawn]

you know what? i think all these ideas about item decay, character decay, skill decay, etc. are really good ideas everybody has [:)]

but i think if HZ starts doing all these things, then it just gonna become the same as every other game. [:$] right now, HZ is unique because it doesn't do the things that other games do. i think HZ focuses more on fun which is maybe why we don't have a strong DP system? [:)] i dunno.

but i think jayne (i think she said it?) is right more than anybody. the reason why economy is bad is because people have nothing else to do but level. [:(] so after like a year, you have everybody who can make their own stuff and not need to depend on each other. which i agree is what is really hurting economy [:$]

maybe if TG gave us other fun things to do rather than just coming here to level it might fix some things? but i really dunno?

[Goriax]

Item decay as presented here is a big fat nerf of adventurers for the strictly (and hypothetical) benefit of crafters. As I have already stated I think item decay is going to suck anyway, but nerfing one group to benefit another is not going to sit well.

So if you're dead set on having item decay (I think it sucks but anyway) then at least be fair about it. Also have decay of magic items, crafting items, crafting machines, plot structures and everything else in the game. Yes decay of magic items seems odd, but since we don't have magic in the real world what do we know about magic items? Perhaps they DO get worse with time.

After all, in real life, if you don't maintain a building or bridge or whatever, it WILL slowly get worse.

[Pharcellus]

Oh, absolutely, Goriax. I expect that all things would decay. The only one I see as problematic to implement would be plot structures and machines. For the most part, plot structures are ornamental and making them subject to decay is kinda pointless, but it wouldn't bother me. The rate of decay on a structure would be very low, in my opinion, as structures are about the only things that are left standing from past civilizations, and weather rather well.

But, yes, machines should degrade, too. Would give everyone a nice community project when the local stonecutter breaks.

Back to the comment about item decay being a big fat nerf of adventurers for the benefit of crafters, no one is suggesting that it be implemented alone in a vacuum. Adventurers are calling for the nerf of crafters by limiting/removing pawn brokers, so it is part and parcel that crafters be given some way to make a living on a regular basis. I have always suggested and supported that, if you want to take away the pawn brokers, then you need to replace them with something like item decay. Since this thread is about economy, specifically the player-to-player economy, the replacement for the pawn brokers should be something that gives adventurers a reason to regularly part with their cash to crafters, as well as crafters willing to part with their cash to adventurers. However, if you remove the pawn brokers as a cash input, the only cash input to the game will be from adventuring, so, naturally, the majority of the cash flow is going to have to be from adventurers to crafters to compensate.

The problem is that the system is still potentially fatally flawed to where there will be no way to be a pure crafter in the game anymore. If adventuring is the only source of coin, and adventurers are loathe to part with it to the point where they would rather level craft classes themselves to be self-sufficient, then pure crafters will have no choice but to become adventurers to get coin. So, basically, we are back to the multiclassing problem again as the ultimate source of the economy's woes. Ultimate in the sense that it will be the thing that will break any solution presented to fix the economy in the long term. As such, perhaps maybe we shouldn't even bother to try and fix the economy, because we are doing nothing more than building a cathedral in the quicksand.

[Jayne]

*I posted this in another thread that Aamer started*

I think the attuning thing limits us alot. I mean I may start out as a warrior but end up being a cleric. I feel that items in game should be sellable or even handed down. Just like you would hand something down from one deneration to the next.

So what about this. Most people have there personal list of crafters they use. So it would only seem logical that they return to those crafters, also I look at the crafter as the ONE person who personally made the item in question (such as my Axe). I think that the item should be attunable to the crafter.

I notice now that items show who there made by, why not make them so the maker is the only one that can repair them? Then anyone that happens to aqquire the weapon will have to get in touch with that crafter. That keeps that crafter getting business, and it is a legitamate way for the crafter to be "Known". If that crafter is gone from game then all those items would eventually degrade beyond use and then the user would need to locate and commission another crafter to make him a new axe and such.

I think that is a very realistic idea and makes sence for the economy. It also gives people a sence of purpose and give the a reason to stay in game.

Jayne

[Narkano]

... andfrom the other thread the same here again ...

... I can only repeat myself ... item decay as a solution can only prove fatal to the game. It'llchange absolutely nothing beside spoiling a great game and making the people leave.

... with the current system, that allows multiclassing of crafters and adventurers alike with almost no limit you can NEVER get control of economy since under the current conditions there will never again be one.

... economy was flourishing only at the beginning of Horizons when everyone was working on a single crafter-class perhaps supported by miner or gatherer.

... now most people are master craftsmen but the items they produce are still quite simple. To a civilization as advanced as the people of Istaria have become, nothing that simple canhave avalue any longer, since every second crafter can do it.

... even if all my equipment loses 10% per day while I am sitting in the sun - which would be absolutely ridiculous - I will not spend a single copper for having it repaired, since I can do it myself or have many others in my guild who can.

... do you really not understand what you are about to suggest?

... the people of Horizons have developed into anadvanced civilization where crafting and learning is at its height. Artisans are creating things of lasting beauty and great wonder.

... with the introduction of item decay you reduce the former master craftsmen of Istaria to mere bunglers. They can never again create anythinglong-lasting. Even items of pure mithril will fallapart from deterioration within days.

... teched items will become less and less frequent, sincecrafted items are no longer of high quality but only cheap baubles fading away quickly. They are simply no longer worth the effort of gathering all the required trophies. And of course lose most of their former value.

... youno longer need to craft a sword especially teched and named for a friend but better give him weapons in bulk.

... nothing will have a true worth any longer.

... you can only bring back some economy when you make use of the given system anddevelop adventuring and crafting to a point where it fits into that advanced system standing out among all the other games. (see my suggestions above) Multiclassing is unique to Horizons and I also considerHorizons havingone of the best crafting-systems around. Just make proper use of it and don't spoil it.

- Narkano

[Aamer Khan]

The new ideas for the system do not prevent pure crafters from existing or making a go of things.

My wife is basically a pure crafter, having only done 17 levels of cleric. She is also a lvl 100 blacksmith/fitter. With all the new ideas in place, what would her day be like?

She levels off making items for players, doing community construction, now, as always. This would not be affected by any of the ideas that have been proposed. Even totally removing the Pawn brokers would only mean she would not make money from PB runs. Limiting the PB would mean less money in hand for her, but then again, she would not need anywhere near as much, since she can craft her own tools and will not need anything new until she starts another class and needs new tools. Even then, she will only need comps for the techs. Not using weapons, nor armor, nor spells means she has greatly reduced needs.

If all of the parts of the picture were addressed, namely production, distribution, and consumption, then if anything, a pure crafters prospects are actually improved, since now they have the possibility of repeat customers.

The real problem is the multiclassed adv/crafters that have multiple lvl 100 classes. If thinsg stay as they are, everyone becomes this eventually, or leaves the game. If thats really what the idea is, get to the top of your profession and have no real reason to play since you now have played yourself out of a purpose... then yes, why bother fixing anything at all.

However, if thats NOT the idea, and the changes to LA are an indication that TG intends for the game to continue to grow and flourish, then making adjustments to the game for the future players is a smart and proper thing to do, and something for us to discuss. Agree or disagree, but by all means voice your ideas... who knows, maybe TG will implement some of them.

[Aamer Khan]

Narkano.

Item decay would provide consumption. It would encourage player to player interaction, and if the item consumed by the repair was only available from an npc for a nominal charge, even though you can repair it yourself it still provides for removing wealth from the system. To that end it most certainly solves a problem that exists now, namely players at the high end being able to make 200 gold an hour from crafting and 300 per hour from adventuring.

The reason why this is bad for the long term health of the game is it takes away the need to interact with other players. As has been mentioned, the reason you don't see alchemist giving away all the potions they make is because they are consumed. They are short term and must be renewed. This means you have to go buy some more to get the benefits. All other items don't have that feature, and thus are often given away because they never wear out. I can tell you that armor would have MORE value if it degraded over time. If it was your perfectly teched chest piece, you would value its protection and it would mean something to you.

Right now, I can craft any metal armor you want, with any tech or color you desire. Will you want techs with the new ideas in place? Of course, since they often mean the difference between life and death and being effective. It will not make weapons worthless, but valued and worth keeping up. The suggestions I made would preserve the tech componant of the item and only degrade the base usefullness of the item. As an example, as a yew bow of bow degrades, its base damage degrades over time to the next lower level, then the next. Once repaired, it returns to full damage ability. And let's say this degrading to the next lower tier would take 1 weeks ingame usage. If you play an average of 2 hours a night, it would take almost 3 months for the bow to degrade down to the next tier. And obviously, if you played 6 hours a day, then it would be a shorter time before repair was needed. But just like drinking a potion before you go out to fight, you stop by the local armorsmith and make sure your armor is ready for the fight. Only if the repair cost was greater than the original weapons cost could your fears be justified. And yes some crafters may attempt to over charge. But the market will correct such ones when others undercut them and make new customers by competing better in the market place.

I also don't believe any of the other accomplished crafters will feel like bunglers if items need repairing. That presumes that their skills and customer relationships are just a product of what the game allows and not them as skillfull and caring players. I'm willing to bet many would take offense at such a notion, I know I do.

[EmilyDawn]

...the reason you don't see alchemist giving away all the potions they make is because they are consumed. They are short term and must be renewed. This means you have to go buy some more to get the benefits. All other items don't have that feature, and thus are often given away because they never wear out. I can tell you that armor would have MORE value if it degraded over time. If it was your perfectly teched chest piece, you would value its protection and it would mean something to you.

i think Aamer has a good point here [:)] i agree. now i think we getting somewhere [:P]

but i think if we are to remove the PB's then coin should not be on mobs anymore too...just to balance things out. if crafters can't farm PBs for cash then adventures shouldn't be able to farm mobs for cash as well. [;)]

[Goriax]

Oh, absolutely, Goriax. I expect that all things would decay. The only one I see as problematic to implement would be plot structures and machines. For the most part, plot structures are ornamental and making them subject to decay is kinda pointless, but it wouldn't bother me. The rate of decay on a structure would be very low, in my opinion, as structures are about the only things that are left standing from past civilizations, and weather rather well.

The structures from past civilisztions which weather well are the only ones left standing. A few years ago I visited Williamsburg. They did a fine job of recreating the buildings, but they also stated that until they DID recreate the buildings there was generally nothing left above ground level and this was after only 200 years. In fact the first thing they had to do was a major project just to find the old foundations. Sure a few stone structures survive through the ages, but the vast majority of structures do not unless continuously maintained. Perhaps they could reflect this in the structures. They could have extra durable structures which decay slower but are MUCH harder to build.

Ok, if a plot structure has absolutely no utility WHATSOEVER then MAYBE one could make a case for not having it decay. However even there I find it a bit much. Even decorative shrubs require maintenance.

But shops, guild houses, etc. must decay.

Otherwise, I see no reason why the percentage rate of decay of a structure must be any slower then the rate of decay of anything else. As a homeowner I can assure you that there's ALWAYS something that needs doing.

[evilkarl]

There is coin on mobs, Most mobs that do not drop coin have trophies and it seems almost all mobs have coin pouches.

I would like to see item decay but I would like to see crafter made repair kits that can be applied out in the field for less total repair than what a crafter would be able to do.

Structure decay would suck and I couldn't support it. I don't craft, no desire to and don't wish to be forced to pay to repair structures.

[Narkano]

Oh?!

Then I don't see any reason for item-decay at all beside being incovenient and annoying. It can only have at leastsome minor impact on economy ifeverything decays to 0% to be gone in the end and if therate of decay is somewhat significant - andotherwise your comparision with potions would not be appropriate. And even that would only be true if an item's total stability would constantly drop due to decayto be beyond repair in the end. In that case my statementswould be quite true.

If I "only" have to repair my weapon once every 3 months - which Istilldo notconsider reasonable for an enchanted mithrilhammer -then where is theeffect on your economy? Therewill benone! Beside that I have all the time in the world to wait for a friend to make the repairs for free if I cannot do it myself anyway.

And no, to be the top of the top should not the final goal of a game. Nonetheless it may be for some, there's nothing wrong with that.But I do not consider that to be the motivation for multiclassing at all. Multiclassing simply is an integral part of Horizons and a quite intersting one, too. It has nothing to dowith wanting tobe top of the top, but with unique character creation.Otherwise all characters of a certain class would be pretty much the same. Single character classes are not some kind of should-be standard with Horizons. I am sure in the end every character will have at least two or three classes for adventuring and/or crafting. Because of that youshould only considerdevelopmentsof Horizons, that make full use ofmulticlassing and fully take the effects of multiclassing into account.

- Narkano

[Aamer Khan]

And yet, that's what I though I was doing.

You don't view it the same as I and thats fine. If the idea has merit it will be implemented in some fasion, or it will not. It may annoy you but it could indeed solve some of the issues many others acknowledge as existing, even if you personally don't see it.

And just so you understand, I'm NOT for single class characters being any kind of should-be-standard in HZ. I'm a multiclass crafter/adventurer and fully enjoy that part of the game. I'm just looking for ways to encourage those same players to interact MORE not less.

As we all become what you suggest, ( and I believe thats indeed IS what will happen ) there is less need to interact with others. I DON'T want HZ to become a well known, very pretty chat client, that oh, btw has a virtual world to tool around in while you chat.

[refuse]

The real problem is the multiclassed adv/crafters that have multiple lvl 100 classes. If thinsg stay as they are, everyone becomes this eventually, or leaves the game. If thats really what the idea is, get to the top of your profession and have no real reason to play since you now have played yourself out of a purpose... then yes, why bother fixing anything at all.

I think the real problem is the suggestions of Solutions that "remove" from the game.

I.e. there is nothing to do, lets make things harder and that will give people things to do.

Not sure why "tedious real world repetition" would make people want to stay in the game longer?

I know the economy is messed up, people do PB runs because there is nothing else to do. People camp Mobs because there is nothing else to do. People do alot of repetative things, because there is nothing else to do.

Community projects are finished in record time because there isn't much to do.

So how is removing something that people can do (even if it is repetative and boring) good for the game? No more PB runs for people, then what will be left? Replacing things that wear out? Is that really a good thing.

Is the economy more important then game play?

To me this smacks of hte same thing with XP changes. removing options in the name of "game play". I don't see how it adds to game play. A working economy? Were people after work, log on to work? It is a game, it is meant to be fun. Wouldn't this be part of that listening to a small group?

Answer these questions:
Would it make the game more fun?
Does it add to the game?
Does it remove from the game?

A working economy where people have to scrape up their pennies to get the next weapon, or tool that will wear out in a matter of time, slowing down their progress to leveling (need to get the tool/weapon repaired instead of saving up for a new weapon/tool) doesn't seem to add any excitement to the game. Add more "reality" to a fantasy world seems contrary to long term health.

I mean we have seen changes now that fragment the current player base.

XP changes that invalidate level differneces with friends.
Aggro changes that invalidate group hunting (yeah, not intended after 2+ weeks on blight and still moved to Live doesn't float)

So now the move would be to do the same to crafting.

As mentioned above, the PB runs give people something (anything) to do. Dragons at 100/100 really play for masochistic reasons. No XP, perhaps to get 100 Hoard wich PB runs can do and really no major benefits.

Look at broken classes like confectioner. Take all that food they make to level, they can't sell it, so now they dump it? Better then paying Consigner prices to have it returned! (I guess they can eat it!) But now they can at least get money to pay for all the porting they need to do.


But anyways.

I think any idea should be evaluated based on the question. Does it add to the game.

Removing tools (eroding them) and armor and weapons doesn't seem like an add. Removing Pawn Brokers (the last "great quest") is a removal, nothing added (sorry a working economy isn't an add).

So add to the game, give players something to do. Don't remove the only things they can do when they hit that wall.

[PJ]

its addition by subtraction

[Vandellia]

Again i can not state the underlieing issue is that we need to be able to by non-esentails that we can enjoy killing weapons decaying buildings constantly being forced to hunt for money to keep things as they are is definately going to be a negitive long term effect on game as most people dont have the time/effort to constantly repair all that they own. Simply give us something besides necessities to spend our money on rugs furnature paintings china beer wine ale

[refuse]

its addition by subtraction

By that logic,
the best move they could make is to shut down the game.

100% subtraction = 100% improvement!

[PJ]

only if your'e doing fuzzy math.

If you take a way a negative aspect, it adds to the game. Unless of course you don't think there are any positives to Horizons.

[refuse]

only if your'e doing fuzzy math.

If you take a way a negative aspect, it adds to the game. Unless of course you don't think there are any positives to Horizons.

Well removing things that people do, to improve the game (not bugs) doesn't seem "good" from a player stand point.

We had lag from to many players in events, did they remove events to reduce lag?

The very idea of removing things instead of adding to the game is silly.

Perhaps encouraging an economy and then re-evaluating the changes once there is an ecomony would be a better approach.

[Pharcellus]

The very idea of only adding things to a game and leaving broken things in is even sillier.

Give AND take. It's what's for balance.

If something is added to the game that gives one group a specific advantage, what should be done? Remove/fix the thing, or add a bunch of other things in an attempt to even out the advantage? What happens when some of those other things send the balance over themselves? You keep adding forever?

There's a word for that; it's called "inflation", and it is not a fun state to live in.

Sometimes, the right thing to do is to decrease, take away, subtract, remove, fix, nerf, etc.Other times, the right thing to do is to add, buff, increase, etc. Knowing when to use one or the other judiciously and effectively is what separates the men from the boys in game design and management.

[PJ]

We had lag from to many players in events, did they remove events to reduce lag?

Actually events have stopped because TG does not have the manpower to produce the events we saw immediately after release.

Well removing things that people do, to improve the game (not bugs) doesn't seem "good" from a player stand point.

People aren't really oppossed to pawnbrokers. They don't want to just remove them, they want them replaced/fixed/redesigned.