Reversing the issues by adding and subtracting

[Aamer Khan]

We are seeing a new trend in board posts that I'm hoping the Developers take note of.

We used to see alot of, add this, or add that, or increase something else. Now, we are seeing a new tactic, namely addition by subtraction, ( to quote PJ from another thread ) and subtraction by addition. This may seem backwards to some, but once an issue becomes top heavy, you must trim off the excess to restore balance and beauty. Kind of view it like a fruit tree. Too many branches and you get very small fruit and many more ways for bug to kill the tree. A bit of pruning is a must to save the tree and make it productive.

Many players see the issues created by the, (supposed to have been temporary) fixes that were applied, as causing systemic problems that have driven off the player base. While this may seem like simple complaining to the newer players, it's actually well thought out and considered analysis by the long term players.

What is interesting, is that now, instead of new additions many are calling for taking things out or limiting the use of various game features, in the hopes of increasing the fun, player interaction, and in the long run, increase the player base again. The CNF class players want additions to be made to remove and limit their pain and grind.

Now whether the Dev's agree with all these posts or not is a mystery. We will only find out when they decide to make a change. In the mean time, I hope we all as players, continue to calmly and respectfully, keep right on expressing our feelings. We seem to have gotten past the petty, "Nerf class x since he is stronger than I, and thats not fair", and finally arrived at what is best for the game. Many of the most vocal have expressed a willingness to work with changes that may nerf their classes, in an effort to support the game and make it better.

So, now seems to be the time to do what you need to TG. Make some bold moves for the future of the game. Become the leaders of innovation and vision. Please don't give into the idea of incorporating ideas from other games, thinking it will improve HZ. This game is very different from the others and just needs to be finished and shined up a bit. The marvelous changes that were done on LA are great examples of the commitment to what HZ IS.

[Varangaard]

For years my email signature has been:

"A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away."
-- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

The truth of this statement is evident.

[Goriax]

Yes but there's a few things to remember too.

1. People who like a feature probably won't be posting about it. They certainly won't post about it as much. You will only truely hear from them when the feature is removed or it's removal is imminant.

2. While it's easy to take stuff away before the game is released, once it's released you have a whole new set of issues to deal with. People who like that feature will view it's removal as a nerf. Perhaps a big nerf. In the short run you will NOT improve overall game morale except for the dozen or so people who posted about wanting it removed.

Yes you can talk about removing something in design, but HZ has passed the design phase. It's a going concern. An aero engineer might talk about removing various features from an airplane design and that's fine, but it is NOT a good idea to go ripping stuff out when it's flying.

Fact is, once the game is released, it's far easier to add then remove. People are far less likely to get upset over something new then if something they're using is taken away. The worst that can happen if something new is added is they won't use it. When something new is added you rarely see people posting flames about how that new thing sucks and if it isn't removed they'll quit. When things are removed you see flames all the time about how it's removal sucks and that they'll quit if it isn't put back.

The Vielo for example. I think the game would be far better off without them; however, they're in now and many people (especially rich people) have gotten used to using them for one stop shopping. If you remove the Vielo those people will most definately not be happy. Likewise, the ability to make a fortune selling in bulk to the pawnbroker. I agree it would have been better if that hadn't been allowed to happen but it has. Do something to remove that and the people who've been making that money will be furious.

Perhaps it's for the best in the long runto bite the bullet and remove those features, butthe pros and cons haveto be thought through carefully.

In summary, when a game has reached this point there are three waysto go about making such fundamental changes in gameplay:

1. Plow ahead and do it. Expect bad press and cancelled subscriptions. If the changes are far reaching and such that any substantial group of people will consider it a nerf (such as removing the Vielo or changing pawnbrokers), then expect a large fraction of that group of people to cancel. Because there is nothing that makes one want to cancel a game more thena seriousnerf.

2. Do it through addition. This can sometimes be achieved. Basically, make the old feature obsolete so nobody does it anyway. Take the Vielo for example. If comps, forms and techs dropped enough so that they were on pawnbrokers for substantially less then the Vielo offered, and if the pawnbrokers could be arranged so people could also have one stop shopping, then perhaps the Vielo could be made obsolete. Obviously such solutions are less then ideal, but they may be better then nothing.

3. The other solution is to wipe the slate clean and make a new game. That's what EQ -> EQ2 did. And as in the case in EQ2 don't count on the new game not having it's own problems.

But whatever is done, it has to be thoughtthrough through carefully. There is no obvious right answer in most cases and every choice has serious downsides. Decisions like that are why they pay DB the big bucks (lol).

[Seranthor]

No, Aamer the CNFs want to be EQUAL by what should have already existed at release. We are not asking that 'new' be added to lessen the grind, we want the same opportunities that everyone else already has had for approaching 2 years now.

[cattoy]

the simple and fundamental difference between the CNF class and every other crafting class that nobody wants to use their services.

Every other class, people look forward to using their products, because it is triggered by growth, development, accomplishment. Ding! I am now a 50th level Blah, I get to upgrade my weapon to Blah. Ding! I am now a 71st level Blah, I get to wear a new type of armor!

Confectioners are different. You only use thier goods/services when you fail. Nobody wants that.

On top of that, thanks to the passive DP removal, nobody really has to, either. Log off, go to work or go to sleep. When you get back, the DP is gone. No other crafting class has to deal with that level of irrelevance. Nobody else has thier work done for them for free.

[Aamer Khan]

Then by all means, REMOVE ambrosia totally.

Increase the penalty for a DP and make dying a truly meaningful thing.

Then go on and give the CNF's of Istaria the forms they are lacking.

Add to the the purpose of confectioners by making it where to stay fully healthy and have full stats, we ALL need to eat food regularly... ( just like in RL )

[Ahkaskar]

There's one major problem with increasing the penalty on DPs: people like me. I don't really have any friends left to play the game with, so it's not like I can drag a cleric along with me to keep me going. My characters are all stuck in situations where their quarry does not give them an adequate reward to the amount of risk they need to take. In fact, I'm starting to see more deaths in some of my lower characters due to the way they designed monster spawns, that are totally unavoidable. If the DP penalty were to be raised with conditions as they are right now, I can easily say it would make enjoyable play impossible for me.

There's one other thing I'd like to comment on... I've always enjoyed the concept of confectionery in this game. The only problem is, whenever I needed a confectioner, I never had a way to reach one, or a food product. This is not to say that there should be more confectioners, or they should try to hang around the game more... but maybe we need to see more emphasis on the taverns, instead.

Well, it's just the way I've seen it. Take it or leave it.

[Pharcellus]

Goriax, I agree with most of what you said, except:

In the short run you will NOT improve overall game morale except for the dozen or so people who posted about wanting it removed.

Developers should NEVER do anything simply based on the posts of a dozen or so people. Everything they do needs to have a rationale, and a well-considered one at that.

Yes you can talk about removing something in design, but HZ has passed the design phase. It's a going concern. An aero engineer might talk about removing various features from an airplane design and that's fine, but it is NOT a good idea to go ripping stuff out when it's flying.

Modifying software designs at run time does not have the same concerns as modifying operating equipment designs at run time. Thus, that comparison is not really valid, especially when you consider the possible effects on the users/passengers. Adding something to an airplane in flight would be fraught with the exact same potential problems as removing something.

Fact is, once the game is released, it's far easier to add then remove.

That is highly dependant on the specific nature of the thing being added/removed. It may actually be nothing more than changing one line of code. Whereas adding something could be a months-long process involving hundreds, even thousands of lines of code and many assets.

When something new is added you rarely see people posting flames about how that new thing sucks and if it isn't removed they'll quit.

No, but it happens often enough that the possibilty shouldn't be discounted.

[PJ]

Developers should NEVER do anything simply based on the posts of a dozen or so people. Everything they do needs to have a rationale, and a well-considered one at that.

Excellent point, and its probably the important thing people should take away from the thread.

When the developers consider a set of changes, they aren't primarily counting up the number of people who'd support it, and the number that'd oppose it.

"Hmmm lets see 101 people would support change x, 99 people oppose it. That settles it, we'll make the change" Just doesn't happen

Every change has a set of ramifications attachted to it. They could be positive or negative depending onthe direction they want to move the game. Lots of the arguments people make consist of the following points

-I like/dislike this feature
-What I do doesn't effect you, let me play the game my way
-I'm not forcing you to play my way, don't force me to play yours

That's not exactly a valid defense of the feature. Emphasise the feature's positive aspect. Why do you like it? What does it allow you to do? Why is that a good thing? What alternatives could be added instead of having your feature removed, or added in replacement of your feature?

Sure some people will be oppossed to things being removed, but there are naturally people oppossed to every design change TG makes. For every change somebody proposes in a thread, there will be some who support it and some who oppose it.

"We like it"
"We dislike it"

Those two arguments cancel out, move onto meaningful ones.

[Jayne]

If you need a confectioner or some other crafter do what I do...............

Go to menu and player search and pick the crafter class and hit search.

It brings up a list of them that are actually on line at that time.

I always find what I'm looking for

Jayne

[Alladania]

The only problem with the player search thing is that a lot of confectioners are working additional classes. I think it's a real problem that search only pulls from currently active class. I'm being a mason and enchanter right now working on my plot. That won't show anyone looking for food that I'm also a confectioner.

Ani Puma
Chaos Shard

[AA0]

TG really is coming to a point where something has to be done that is bold, they are facing a big decision on end game, pawnbrokers, veilo, and class balances and people will hate it at first, they'll be furious, and they'll cry and moan like they always do. If the changes are made well, the balance thought out.
TG does have a plan for the pawnbrokers, and the veilo right now, and I am sure the crafters will cry, until they get some guts and start charging for their services, like its supposed to be in a proper, functioning economy.
TG will have to nerf multiclassing, and put sensible limits to restore some kind of sanity to a persons power. If its done properly, it'll allow more people to come in then quit.

On the whole, the devs really can't listen to the majority of the people on the forums, they are selfish and want something that is advantageous to themselves. Those same people after complaining about something being too hard will then finish what they are doing and complain about having nothing to do. The players need a lesson, and we need to be shown that if we work on something hard, get it done in a great struggle we'll learn to appreciate what we did more... the players need to stop the whining and realize they really don't know what they want.

[Fratricide]

I personally do not playa confectioner, mainly because I saw the list of ingredients for one of the higher lvl foods and was taken aback. Anyway... I have been reading through these forums for the past several months I guess it is now, and have seen several threads about how the CNF class is severely hampered in there school because of several reasons Ill not go into fully here. I can imagine that the staff is pondering deeply, perhaps even subconsiously,on ways to complete the class and make it a more pleasureable to play, and useful to the community as a whole.
I would never suggest that the class be removed from the game and the xp gained be moved to another class, as has been suggested in another thread. I would suggest however perhaps that someone with authority,besides a forum moderator, make a comment on where on the priority list this class lies.. so that the playerbase can once and for all know that the class is being thought of and there is a plan in the works to correct or at least work onthe issues surrounding the class as a whole.
I know that a huge priority within the admin realm right now is completeing the AROP and that is a great thing to accomplish. Another thing that I know is being worked on is the lairs for dragons. And that is wonderful and all as well. The problem I see stems from a lack of communication surrounding the potential fix for the confectioner class. Where there are pleanty of messages from the devs showing at least a thought process towards other fixes, this one has been left totally flapping in the wind with speculation, suggestions, and arguments. All with no foundation as to whether or not the work process has started, or what the thought process is regarding the school.
Please do not take this as a rant, as it is not meant to sound as such. I am just getting frustrated that the only thing I keep seeing on the boards are more and more threads being started about how the confectioner school needs to be fixed, and not on dev hops into the thread, which I know they must be reading, saying... "thanks for the comments, The confectioner class fixes are in the planning stages and we will focus more on them as soon as we finish AROP and Lairs.." thats all most of the player base wants, is a confirmation that the devs know that the school is broke and that they are planning on looking at it.

Sorry for the long post.

[Seranthor]

Advantagous works AA0... but there are some that would be extremely satified with just parity in what they are doing.

[Seranthor]

Exactly Fratricide,

Meaningful public communications goes a very very very long way to quell the angry mobs. But be assured that anything CNFs get in the manner of meaningful attention will come 'After Arop and Lairs' (tm?)

[Fratricide]

But be assured that anything CNFs get in the manner of meaningful attention will come 'After Arop and Lairs' (tm?)

I do not doubt that more attention is being diverted to Arop and Lairs then any other combined things in game. You have to keep them dragons from sizzling your tail feathers. I have heard several rumors that CNF is being looked into, but you know nothing "official." By official I mean either DB or one of the Devs...

Personally. I just wish they would finally make dowsing and prospecting skills worth something. But that is something more trivial then not. I personally only have one dragon character, so I could about care less for lairs and ARoP as well. What good does it have for me to have these monstrosities in dragon form wandering around messing up my FPS. (sorry to all you dragon players that want to get old) I would much rather time being spent formulating how to overcome the problems facing several of the schools. CNF in particular. Even if we had to do this whole Uber world event or something to make it so that CNF would be implemented in its entirety, well so be it. Anyway, I have digressed enough.

<peers around for a dev to post anything about the state of the CNF school so that we can all stop clamering around lost, dazed, and confused why no progress "seems" to be comming about>

[AA0]

There are a lot of areas in the game that need attention, it seems they've been prioritized by TG and are bring completed properly, not fast fixes.
So while CNF will get its day, it'll be very different, just as TG refused to put fungus back into the game until they could start to do it right.

All the issues have been addressed about confectioners, and really should be dropped, just because TG doesn't bring it up constantly while they haven't had time to work on it, doesn't mean their plans are changing. All this stuff is planned out way ahead.

[Seranthor]

addressed how?... with public silence? I suppose thats one way of addressing a situation.

[Enos Yorl]

Seranthor,

Sad to say, Dev communicationhas come lightyears from where it was before (you came in at retail like I did,we bothknow that you know this already).

One of the main reasons for the first and secondmass exodus from the game was very poor, and factually inaccurate (false)communication from AE, due to this manyplayers simply decided that the game was bogus, and thus "made book" to another game.

Most players I've met in the MMO's that I've played really are content to know that something is being "worked on".Open, *truthful*dialogue means more to an online community than having the actual changes immediately occuring in many instances.

It's a shame, a player of this game who knows the issuesmanages to buy the company that owns it, and doesn't seem to be able to even alleviatesimple communication issues; personally i'm with the screw publicmouthpieces/community managers bandwagon, players don't want, need, nor care for em',the developers need to take a hand in this, much and moreoften,even 5 posts a day in the player threads, or a hello in one would goreal far.

I can't forget theFanboi Mods (I'm missing TazoonIMHO they NEED to be neutral either way, like a judge, it's a true shame that some feel the need toflout their biased outlook, and mod accordingly.

Just my 2 cents, $3.98 more get's a quad venti mocha at any participating Starbucks.[;)]

[LaughingOtter]

Meaningful public communications goes a very very very long way to quell the angry mobs. But be assured that anything CNFs get in the manner of meaningful attention will come 'After Arop and Lairs' (tm?)

Confectioners have consistantly been told that their issues will be addressed *after* the ARoP and Lairs are finished and in-game. That time has not come. Those conditions have not been met.

It's not yourfreakin' turn.

I support the confectioner cause, fully. However, this "shove it everyone's face" approach is tantamount to trying to cut in the lunch line because you're afraid there won't be any chocolate milk left if you wait for your turn like everyone else.

I know that ARoP and lairs have taken a lot longer than anyone wanted. Stuff happens. That doesn't meanconfectioners arebeing ignored; it means resources are limited and things take longer than anticipated or desired.

When you see ancient dragons building lairs on Order and Chaos, then confectioners can take center stage. I'm sure there will be enough chocolate milk to go around.