Reversing the issues by adding and subtracting

[Seranthor]

Of course Klaus, its never their turn... :) I bet even 'After Arop and Lairs' (tm?) something else will be found to be more important and CNFs will stay on the dog list.

[kengar]

I support the confectioner cause, fully. However, this "shove it everyone's face" approach is tantamount to trying to cut in the lunch line because you're afraid there won't be any chocolate milk left if you wait for your turn like everyone else.

This mirrors my opinion as well. If anything, Seranthor's desensitizing me to the issue. Yes, confectioner has issues and needs a purpose, more so than any crafting class, quite likely more than any adventure classes at this time. This doesn't mean I don't get tired of hearing about it.

O.K., so the comment in IRC about Amon working on the confectioner class after ARoP is done isn't official. The IRC logs were posted here, and if they were faked, someone would have pointed that out by now. So, Tulga is aware of the problem and quite likely intends to address it.

So from my point of view, all this noise is just like a kid in a grocery store crying because he wants candy NOW, doesn't want to wait till after dinner. I'm almost sorry that they won't stick a lollypop in Seranthor's mouth to keep him from crying. This is a sad state for me, because while I hardly agree with him on everything, I do agree with him on some issues and I'm generally interested in listening to what he has to say on issues where we don't agree. In other words, I respect his opinion, even when it doesn't match my own. I'd just be happier dropping the rabble-rousing until Amon starts working on something after the ARoP, and if it isn't confectioner, then raise a stink.

I won't claim that AE/Tulga is perfect on keeping their promises, but most of the things they said they were going to do eventually got done, just not as soon as everyone wanted it done.

[Seranthor]

Kengar to borrow form your analogy about the kid in the grocery store that wants candy NOW... you might be right, they want something now, but you've skipped over the part that the child is covered in sores from neglect and is so emaciated that Ethiopians would look like Sumo wrestlers in comparison.

That said clearly the majority of the folks see no benefit in completing the last class in the game so why should I care about anything else they want/need. If everyone else wants to be out for themselves maybe I should skip the patient civil discord and start demanding like so many of the others that have demanded attention and gotten it.

[Bori Grimbattle]

What TG SHOULD do is something akin to a timeline without dates that would look like

ARoP----->Lairs------>CNFs------>New Event---------> and so on

A simple timeline, it could even have branches to a couple things at the same time but it would at least give peeps a general idea of where their pet project sits in the greater scheme of things. They do not have to list everything they are working on but should at least touch on the major issues as seen in the threads in these forums.
If Christmas was going to happen "Sometime" in the future it would not engender the same excitement as it does after "Thanksgiving but before New Years".

Get the idea?[:D]

[kengar]

Kengar to borrow form your analogy about the kid in the grocery store that wants candy NOW... you might be right, they want something now, but you've skipped over the part that the child is covered in sores from neglect and is so emaciated that Ethiopians would look like Sumo wrestlers in comparison.

You know, I had a gut instinct that said someone was going to equate criminal negligence with that statement. So, how many people do you know that have died because the devs aren't taking your concerns seriously? No doubt there are people that have quit because their concerns (including this one) weren't addressed in what they consider to be a timely manner, and I'm not going to deny that fixing this issue would improve the health of the community, even those that don't play confectioners.

I'm also not going to say that a major overhaul to confectioners, food, and deathpoints isn't long overdue. If they hadn't started on the ARoP yet, I wouldn't have an issue with this taking priority over the ARoP, despite the fact that Kengar is a dragon. The changes to dragons that came just before the first part of the ARoP went live were enough to make dragons viable, so I wasn't one of those looking forward to the ARoP with great intensity.

In fact, the only reason I'd rather see them finish ARoP first is because as a programmer myself, I know how disruptive it can be to switch projects midstream, both to the projects in question and to the programmer.

That said clearly the majority of the folks see no benefit in completing the last class in the game so why should I care about anything else they want/need. If everyone else wants to be out for themselves maybe I should skip the patient civil discord and start demanding like so many of the others that have demanded attention and gotten it.

I'm more on your side than you might think. I've stopped using ambrosia, even confectioner-made ambrosia, because I think that it's a crutch that encorages this issue to go unaddressed. I'm helping our only real guild confectioner level enough to be able to make T4 foods because of this. I don't say this to impress you or anyone, it doesn't make me a better person. I'm just trying to make the point that I agree with your cause. However, if you've got someone that believes in your cause going "Oh, no, not again" when they see some of your posts, how do you think people that don't care are going to react?

On the other hand, I don't have a better plan. I do believe that confectioners are going to get some attention as soon as the manpower can be spared, and no amount of demanding is going to change that, but that's as far as that goes.

Out of curiosity, what would it take to convince you that the devs are aware of the issue and intend on dealing with it prior to actually fixing it? I can understand why a remark in IRC might not be considered sufficient, and I'm also certain that I can't provide whatever it is you want, but I would like to know.

[LaughingOtter]

From IRC, July 1, 2005:

<gopher> Hey David, I was wondering where on your list of priorities a quick review of the current Racial Abilities (passive) is?
<David-HappyCanadaDay> Manga will go over this, but ARoP+Lairs are getting closer to delivery, then Confectioners, then Ability review

There you have it. Confectioners are the top priority as soon as ARoP & lairs are delivered. Before racial ability review, before racial ability quests, confectioners will have their day. Making confectioners a viable class is going to require major changes to the entire death point system, probably including removal ofpassive DP reduction, and/or the elimination of ambrosia. It will require a design review of a system that was not fully thought out and only partially implemented.

For the player community to accept changes to the death point system - especially radical ones - confectioners needtobe seen and accepted as alegitimate part ofIstarian life. Otherwise, any change to the DP system will be seen as a crippling nerf on the entire population implementedto make a single craft class wealthy. Confectioners need all the goodwill and understanding they can muster, Seranthor, and your antics do nothing but undermine that effort.

[Seranthor]

Out of curiosity, what would it take to convince you that the devs are aware of the issue and intend on dealing with it prior to actually fixing it? I can understand why a remark in IRC might not be considered sufficient, and I'm also certain that I can't provide whatever it is you want, but I would like to know.

to answer your question Kengar its very very simple,

1) something on the forums and/or website with some semblance of a timeline from TG management/devs. (the below mentioned 4 words are unacceptable to fullfill this request)
2) even a handful (6-10) of our expert food forms (personally I'd settle for 1-2).


I'm sorry to everyone that thinks we should be satisfied with 'After Arop and Lairs', because we've heard the same 4 words since November 04 with the intent of Arop and Lairs being deliverable before Xmas (everyone remember that?) Its now July 05, I feel we are entitled to something more substantial from TG than just the 4 words and something concrete. But then again, I'm certain that even giving CNFs the above mentioned bandaids is too much of a time and resource drain on the PTBs and that we all in fact should just go back to our corners and suckle on the 4 words some more and see if that sates the hunger of the dying CNFs.

[Seranthor]

at present Klaus many are even happy with the bad attention over no attention at all. Bleeding wounds only can bleed so long before the patient dies.

Also, The misinformation, apathy, and mistreatment can only go on so long before patience, goodwill and understandingare exhausted. I for one have reached that point as have many CNFs that just have said to themselves 'Screw it, TG doesn't give a rats ^&* why should I?' then they cancel their accounts and move on.

Antics you say? So the plight of the CNFs is now my fault also? I think not, place the blame for this situation squarely where it belongs.

[imported_Ssilmath]

I'm sure that you want the Devs to devote a great deal of time and thought to your craft, so that it is done right...Guess what, so do the dragons...That is the reason for the delays...rather than push out a half done product, the devs have decided that it would be best to spend more time to make sure things are done right...

Once they have achieved that, they'll spend the same amount of time on CNF...

Or you can demand that you get your way now and say to heck with getting things done right, rush to meet your demands...And then they will do the same to your class, cause someone else will demand the same you are, and then you'll join the dragons who got shorted...

Let the devs get things done right, on the projects they are working on right now, and then you can get your class taken care of right and not rushed...

[Seranthor]

Ssimath,

1) you are completely wrong in claiming that we want the devs to "devote a great deal of time and thought to your craft" because at the current rate ofprogress if they "spend the same amount of time on CNF" it will be sometime in middle 2006 before we get JMAN forms. Yes thats right its not a typo.

by suggesting that the devs are holding back 'to do it right' your assuming the following as fact which clearly can be held in dispute.

1) that something else wont come up and be deemed more 'important' than what they have already promised.

2) that are going to do Arop right and stick to their promises.

3) that there will be anyone left to give a rat's a** about what they dont care to deliver.


Its truly sad that all of you have ALL your finished product expert forms and you begrudge usthose, you begrudge us wanting to be complete and worst of all you begrudge us the right to voice our feelings. Its shameful that the largest majority of you begrudge useven 1/20th of attention that Dragons have and continue to get and you act like we are wrong for speaking up.

[imported_Ssilmath]

Well, at this point I give up trying to reason with you...Not once has anyone said that confectioners should not be worked on, never once have we denied that they need work...We are fine with you voicing your opinions, but the frequency and similarity to throwing a fit are getting tiring...

What we keep trying to say is, you aren't the only person who plays this game, and there are other, more important issues to work on at this time...It has been stated that your class is the next in importance...It's gonna get fixed...

But if you keep throwing your tantrum, you're going to make people stop wanting to support you...To use your Etheopian analogy, you're trying to take the foodbowl from another starving person even when you are next in line to recieve food...You won't starve to death in the intervening time, have patience and grow up...

[Vandellia]

what is sad is that Ammers entire post has been taken over and turned into a rant against confectioners Whate he is simply saying is that he sees the symptoms of a bit of disenchantment in the game with the numerous threads, and the lack of communication on where that vision of the game at realease has gone. Far to many disgruntled/angry people are still hanging in there on the hopes of a brighter future. what is clearly lacking is a definative statement by tulga inthe broadest terms where they think the current vision for my beloved game is going .we dont needdetailed specifics, as I have seen too often in the past and continue to see today, that if they state anything it will be taken as a gospel and then used as a weapon, We do however need a reasonable amount of information to basea true world visionof Istaria. Lets try to get this whole post back on its intended topic and off of everyones pet whipping boy.

[imported_Ssilmath]

So tell me, who derailed the topic and then perpetuated it?

Oh yeah, a confectioner...

<Shakes his head sadly>

[Entilzah]

I gave fair warning that any more confectioner topics would end up being moved to the confectioner forum. While Aamer did indeed mention CNF in his original post, it did not strike me as a pure confectioner topic at the time since it could involve discussion in a number of areas.

Seranthor has ensured that this became a confectioner topic. So it's now here in the confectioner forum where it belongs.

[arseovrteakettl]

Well, let's trace what happened here.

Aamer started in his original post using confectioners as an example of his topic: he said "What is interesting, is that now, instead of new additions many are calling for taking things out or limiting the use of various game features, in the hopes of increasing the fun, player interaction, and in the long run, increase the player base again. The CNF class players want additions to be made to remove and limit their pain and grind."

Seranthor responded "No, Aamer the CNFs want to be EQUAL by what should have already existed at release. We are not asking that 'new' be added to lessen the grind, we want the same opportunities that everyone else already has had for approaching 2 years now."

Seranthor's response is not really on topic, because he is not discussing the topic of "Reversing the Issues by adding and subtracting" but rather changing the topic to the plight of confectioners and arguing with the way Aamer phrased his example. This derailment continues through the thread, with some posters trying to stay on topic and others arguing with or agreeing with Seranthor about the confectioner topic.

IMO there isn't slamming of confectioners in this thread. There is frustration with the confectioner issue derailing yet another discussion of something else.

EDIT: jeez, you were too fast for me Entilzah. Please delete my post if it now seems off topic : )

[refuse]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Pharcellus wrote:

Developers should NEVER do anything simply based on the posts of a dozen or so people. Everything they do needs to have a rationale, and a well-considered one at that.


Excellent point, and its probably the important thing people should take away from the thread.

When the developers consider a set of changes, they aren't primarily counting up the number of people who'd support it, and the number that'd oppose it.

"Hmmm lets see 101 people would support change x, 99 people oppose it. That settles it, we'll make the change" Just doesn't happen

Every change has a set of ramifications attachted to it. They could be positive or negative depending onthe direction they want to move the game. Lots of the arguments people make consist of the following points

-I like/dislike this feature
-What I do doesn't effect you, let me play the game my way
-I'm not forcing you to play my way, don't force me to play yours

That's not exactly a valid defense of the feature. Emphasise the feature's positive aspect. Why do you like it? What does it allow you to do? Why is that a good thing? What alternatives could be added instead of having your feature removed, or added in replacement of your feature?

Sure some people will be oppossed to things being removed, but there are naturally people oppossed to every design change TG makes. For every change somebody proposes in a thread, there will be some who support it and some who oppose it.

"We like it"
"We dislike it"

Those two arguments cancel out, move onto meaningful ones.

Which is 100% true.
They need to address their game as they see fit within their parameters.

But I will go one step further, and that they need to understand what they are changing.

The problem with this mentality (as proposed by Aamer) is that it is far easier to delete, then create. So the delete feature is "over used". Yes, over used. There are quests that were broken, easier to delete then fix, and so they are deleted. There are problems in the world, delete, done that problem is gone.

But was there enough thought into why it was deleted? What does it mean that now it is gone? And does the deletion cause larger problems, or leave gaps that are not filled. This same thinking must be done for additions as well as changes.

No nerf, nor addition that is implemented poorly can be truley evaluated. The Aggro changes, poorly implemented, have changed the game. Was this intended? If not, why was it implemented, and why did it go live?


So we really have a pyramid of need that needs to be balanced for any change. And this goes for any software development.

1) Customers, believe it or not, the company can't live off of people like Aamer and PJ who are willing to stay through anything. They need new people, and they need people to stay. Also, the word of mouth has to change from "they are working on it", or "they dropped the ball again", to a pure positive (not 100% possible, but more possitive then negative) word of mouth. Things like Aggro changes, 1+ year late Ancients, Confection forms still broken, and "sorry we don't have enough developers" doesn't help the customers.

2) Product. The product has to be balanced for what it is. Is it an MMO? Is it an MMORPG? What is the product? What market are they trying to fill? Are they the multi-classed (no one else does it) game? If so, then limiting multi-classing would be bad. Are they the "progress slow", or "Grouping isn't encouraged" game, if so then the changes to Aggro and removing machines and placement of monsters is working. So what is the product? What do they consider their strengths? This has to be presented to their customers, so the customers have the correct opinion about the game. As it is, presentation and the future is not something discussed. When it is, they rightly (after so many bad versions) don't give dates. But they need to start setting expectations. Should people expect not to tank anymore? Should people expect that Multi-classing is going to be discourage? What is the vision of the game? What is the games purpose? Is reaching 100 the end? These are product questions.

3) Company. The company has to make money. This is usually based on #1 along with #2. If a company isn't strong financially, they can't support a game. If they company is working on multiple projects, without working on any one at a time this is reflected in their product s (#2). If their company treats their customers (#1) well, then customers will allow more problems in their product (#2) and the company will do well.

So each and every change has to be balanced with #2's intent, and #1's reaction, and that will be overshadowed by #3. A solid product from a bad company will have a certain market. A good product from a good company has nother. Some companies have a reputation for being good, and thus products (#2) will be accepted by customers (#1) even before being seen, based on previous behavior. Other companys have bad reputations, and any product is looked at sceptically.

This can be expanded to product changes. If a company is know to release unthought out changes to their players, and take days, weeks, months or even years to fix, the company has a reputation. And any change is therefor looked at with sceptical eyes.

So is a subtraction a bad thing? No. Can it be a bad thing from a company that likes to weild it to wildly? Yes. Can a company that has a past behavior for making changes that don't work, and are left in for months or longer make a good change? Yes.

So subtraction has its dangers. Is it thought out? Is it implemented well. Does it improve the product? And will the customers find value in it? Those questions will deliver the answer on the subtraction being a good thing, or a bad thing.

Subtractions to slow people down so they stay longer to reach the end, may not be considered good by many people.
Subtractions to balance the game, may be considered good by many, and bad by some. Is it good or bad? That is a personal decision.
Subtractions to remove the need to fix things in the game may be considered good by the company, and bad by the customers.

And finally, poorly implemented changes will not perceived as good, regardless of the spins that sycophants attach to them. Badly implemented changes are bad. Statements to the fact that they will be fixed, just indicate the lack of concern in implementing them. Regardless of their intent by the company, or the why they were done for the product.

So there is a bigger balancing act that must be done well, more so then totalling dislikes vs likes.

And from my opinion, they only listen to a very small group of players (based on my estimation of paying players). Those that can "get their ear" or are in the "focus" group have more weight. That to me is a danger, as the product (#2) is now more tightly designed towards the focus group, then toward the larger customer base.

In reality, there has to be a buisness plan for the game, and that has to be communicated to the players, so they know what to expect when it is implemented. And the implementation must be executed well. That will make any sting of removal, addition or change less painful. Knowing your class will have abilities removed is painful. Knowing your class will have abilities removed but that it will be done in a thought out, and planned way, and executed such that you won't expect 1-2-3 months of bugs until, or if, it is fixed is alot less painful. Understanding that change within the context of the game will lessen the sting more.

[kengar]

I'm sorry to everyone that thinks we should be satisfied with 'After Arop and Lairs', because we've heard the same 4 words since November 04 with the intent of Arop and Lairs being deliverable before Xmas (everyone remember that?)

Do you really think you'd be happier if they announced an ETA and missed it because ARoP took longer than expected? I know more dragons that have stopped playing because it seems that the ARoP is in a holding pattern than have come back to game to do what parts of the ARoP are available.

As much as you think we shouldn't be happy with statements that people are assigned to work on the confectioner class right after the ARoP, I think it would be stupid and counterproductive for them to state more than that, given the way schedules slip. Yes, it would be nice to have a message posted here to the effect, rather than just snippets of IRC logs.

2) even a handful (6-10) of our expert food forms (personally I'd settle for 1-2).

Are the resources in game for the missing T4 foods or for the T5 foods? I suspect the resources are around for the T4 foods, but I don't know about T5, not even sure what T5 foods would be other than yet another spice added to the common recipies. I'm not trying to justify the lack, just get a handle on how much work adding confectioner forms are. You've already got the expert forms for pots/pans/etc, so that isn't a holdup, at least, and (geostone is it?) spawns already exist.

As strictly an educated guess, I think that the big holdup on T5 foods would be the addition of any new ingredients needed. You need the artwork, the resource spawns, possible processing forms for the new ingredients, and then you need the new formulas for the T5 foods themselves. Then more artwork for the food itself, if it looks different than earlier tiers of the same food (never had two different tiers of food on me, so I honestly don't know if this is the case).

[Fratricide]

refuse.... I will have to say that that is one of the more well written, on topic,and perhaps constructive posts I have seen posted in quite a while. Good show...

[Seranthor]

Kengar after the scathing attack I got today from a moderator and the repeated attacks I get for trying ot help I dont care anymore....


Digit your dead on with your post, butTG really doesnt want to hear it. They have it in their mind what they want to do, when they want to do it and how they want to do it... so let them, if they destroy their own game in the process thats their right.

[Ruath]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Seranthor wrote: 2) even a handful (6-10) of our expert food forms (personally I'd settle for 1-2).

Are the resources in game for the missing T4 foods or for the T5 foods? I suspect the resources are around for the T4 foods, but I don't know about T5, not even sure what T5 foods would be other than yet another spice added to the common recipies. I'm not trying to justify the lack, just get a handle on how much work adding confectioner forms are. You've already got the expert forms for pots/pans/etc, so that isn't a holdup, at least, and (geostone is it?) spawns already exist.

As strictly an educated guess, I think that the big holdup on T5 foods would be the addition of any new ingredients needed. You need the artwork, the resource spawns, possible processing forms for the new ingredients, and then you need the new formulas for the T5 foods themselves. Then more artwork for the food itself, if it looks different than earlier tiers of the same food (never had two different tiers of food on me, so I honestly don't know if this is the case).

I am REALLY bothered by this assessment, and again I realize that this goes off the original intended topic, but it's in the confectioner section so I am going to reply, like it or not.

What artwork?!?! TOTALLY BS argument in my opinion. The artwork is already there.


We already have mackerel (T5) and thegeostone is already here (as YOU stated above). From what I have seen so far in the differences between beginner forms and Jman forms the only NEEDED change is to the fish and to the clay!How hard is it to take a Jman form like for instance JourneymanFish Kabobs, change the name to expert change one ingredient and voila we have ExpertFish Kabobs!

No artwork needed, it's already in game. Beginner fish kabobs, > Journeyman Fish Kabobs > Expert Fish KabobsThey did it with everyone one of the pots and pans already. What did they do to effectively make the pots, pans, etc. from beginner to Jman to expert, hmmmmm let's see, they changed the name (Beg/JMan/Expert) they changed the color of the icon, andthey changed one line for the tier of clay used.


Everyone says AFTER ARoP and lairs, really?! Is that really true?! If so then why in the world of Istaris are there so many privates running around now? Why is there SO much change to Lesser Aradoth (the island with Kion/Parsinia/Sslanis)? Pretty sure that has nothing at all to do with lairs and ARoP, or am I missing something here? Oh yeah and aren't there some new weapons, taskmasters, trophies, trophy huntersand trophy quests. Pretty sure all those came about AFTER ARoP and lairs were thought up! Also pretty sure some of those were even thought up after the ARoP and lairs were supposed to be live.

Stop defending the devs and SAYING you support confectioner's cause and support it!!!!!


Side note:
As far as all you people attacking Seranthor, leave it alone if you don't like what he has to say! You are only perpetuating the discord! Seranthor made one comment about the fact that confectioners do not want the class to be easier. OMG slay him!!!! That's so wrong for him to comment about!!!! MOST of his other comments were in support of what other players had to say about the subject (if you all would bother to go back and look!) How is that hurting the cause of confectioners????? THANK YOU SERANTHOR for being our staunch supporter!!!! PLEASE keep it up!!!!!! If anyone doesn't like it they don't have to comment on it.

I WANT/NEED expert forms for food in game now and my confectioner just hit level 62 yesterday, but she's already got a skill over 800 in cooking and earthencraft so gonna be needing the food forms sooner than later. I can only imagine how it feels for the level 100 confectioners in game now that had to grind there way to 100 with ONLY T4 food forms and making of clay sheets/bowls/skewers/.... WHICH they have absolutely NO use for and don't even have the ability to decon (as most of the other crafter classes do).And I can only imagine how they felt when their LOVED craft (and trust me you HAVE to love confectioner to be one) became all but obsolete because Ambrosiabecame SO readily available to everyone with it's level cap raise.