Novians: How much is enough?

[Kwinn]

I'm sure most of us would like to see Novians as a permanent feature. It would be of use to those wishing to upgrade plot structures, or even to move an entire plot's worth of structures. Sure, some would probably 'farm' Novians..I don't honestly see where this would be a problem. 'Farm' Novians to what end? To sell? I'll buy em if I need em and so would others.

The big question is 'how much to we recover?' This can be viewed from 2 angles, by resource or by structure. I think by resource is far better so this is where I'm going. I would add here that I have been involved in real world demolition/deconstruction in the past and I have a good idea what one can salvage, what cannot be salvaged and why, and how much, a rough percentage, of a given material is salvagable. Kwinnish logic will apply to essence (you've been warned) hehe :)

Wood construction materials are timbers and braces. Timbers would probably include studs, trusses, joists and frames. They could be attached by nails, dowels, glues and screws(these are unlikely). Nails are usually easily removed with a cats-paw nail remover or a pry bar. This process is very undamaging to the wood. However, there are stubborn nails and the wood can be split, splintered or otherwise rendered useless. Dowels can be driven out, drilled out and sometimes split and removed in pieces. Again, there are stubborn dowels causing the same results noted with nails. Adhesives(glues) usually are used in conjunction with other fasteners and are usually fairly easy to deal with. Overall success ratesalvaging wood materials of this type can easily reach 90% or more.

Braces are really just timbers constructed to provide support. Once the material needing support is removed the braces can easily be removed with little or no damage. Success rate salvaging braces could easily be 95%.

Metal construction materials are sheeting and jointing. We've all seen tin roofs. Those sheets of metal are attached with nails. The nails have collars below the heads made of lead or teflon. They serve a threefold purpose..cushion the blow of the hammer to prevent denting the sheet, water proofing and ease of removal. Metal sheets are also used to cap walls, and as flashing. In all cases metal sheeting is easily removed if a little care is used.However, inspite of any and all due caution metal sheets are easily bent or dented thereby reducing their usefulness. As we don't have to deal with oxidation in game, salvaging metal sheeting should run 75-80%.

Metal jointing serve much the same purpose as wood braces and are subject to the same considerations in salvaging. Metal joints should get a 85-90% salvage rate. This is a little less than the braces due to the fact that joints can still be bent or warped easier than one might think, and thus rendering them useless.

Stone materials are blocks and keystones. While I have not had any first-hand experience with keystones I do understand the principle of their use. Salvaging Keystones would, IMO, be easily in the 70-75% range, if not more.

Blocks are the same in game as in the real world. They are either laid dry, trusting to their weight to keep them in place, or they are laid with mortar, cementing them in place. Dry laid blocks are easy to salvage. Start removing from the top and work your way down. As long as you don't drop them too far or on something hard you should be able to salvage all of them. If they are laid with mortar there will be some loss. The mortar has to be removed with a hammer and chisel and sometimes, regardless of caution exercised, the block is going break. Thus far I have been referring to walls, non-plastered walls to be specific. Plastered walls are very difficult to salvage unless one can remove enough plaster to see the joints between the blocks.Silos appear to be plastered, as do a couple of other structures. Walkways and tiles can also be removed fairly easily. It's my guess these 'structures' for game purposes, are laid dry directly on the ground. As such, salvage rates would be high. Overall for blocks is hard to determine though. Dry laid vs mortar, plaster may be involved, salvage rates ranging from near 100% to as low as 10%. For game purposes I think a salvage rate of 60% is more than ample. Sure, non-plastered structure are going to see a lot of un-needed wastage but, silos are going to be much more salvagable. The other alternative is to do stone salvage ofn a structure by structure basis.

Cloth materials are bolts and tapestries. Tapestries, take them down, roll them up, and you have 100% salvage rate. If there are seveal sewed together snipping and removing the thread nets a salvage rate so close to 100% as to not be worth mentioning. Cloth bolts would follow the same guidelines. Therefore, cloth salvage should be at least 95%. Let's allow a little wastage here, weavers need some love too :)

Essence materials are sources and spheres. These must be the magical element of construction and it's here where Kwinnish Logic kicks in. Essence would probably be the 'tie that binds' all the other materials together. As such, wastage of essence materials, as with any other 'tei that binds' must be high. Most nails are unusable after they have been pulled. Gloues are completely destroyed, screw heads get stripped out, dowels get split, chipped or destroyed. Therefore, essence materails should have a salvage rate of 50% at best.

To recap...wood timbers 90%
wood braces 95%
metal sheeting 75-80%
metal jointing 85-90%
stone keystones 70-75%
stone blocks 60%
Cloth (all) 95%
essence (all) 50%

I know there will be those that will say one cannot apply real world experience to a fantasy game. I beg to differ. The real world influences everything about us, including our fantasy worlds. Futhermore, wood is wood, stone is stone, metal is metal be it real world or fantasy world. Certain aspects of real world experinces have a place in a fantasy world. This is one of those aspects.

Kwinn

P.S. Surgury went well, thanks for the well wishes :) I did piss off a cute nurse though. But that, as they say, is another story. :)

[Nalrach]

Hello Kwinn

First, I'm glad all went well and your back. And about the nurse , you know what they say .. 1 lost , 10 found.

I like your well taugth and logical description of salvaging and the values are pretty close from reality, exception on the stone block.

Here some reasonningg:
1) For having worked on a crew that did renovation their is much of the field stone or brick that you can salvage and re-use. The crew I work on for 2 summer (while student at college) renovated old historical building, and extra care was made to salvage evrything. Which I must say 85-90% was like new, 5% okay, 5% needed replacement.
2) On our house, the landlord had to get insulation on the walls. They took the wall brick out and cleaned them They end up replacing 3 window mentle becaue they broke one, the weather damage one and the otherone something about the color. But for the brick 100% were re-used.
3) My uncle took a stone wall down and clean the stone so he could use them for a fire place, is salvage pile versus the damage one was impressive. Most of the one he scrapped where majorly for non hestical value.

For these 3 experiences, I really think the value of stone block salvage should be adjust to 85-95%

As to essence, I always had difficulties to see what they did in the whole picture .. but I like your logic and I think 50% is a generous figure.

There is one place where salvaging fails the tables you draw ..... Trees.Hey yeah trees! We cannot really take apart a tree. Well it's a magical world anything is possible. Buttrees can be transplanted with care and be 100% successfull. Trees would almostneed to be a single token, allowing you to transplant it somewhere else.

[Kwinn]

Nalrach,

Thanks for the welcome home :)

About the blocks...were the walls you did plastered? if so, how was plaster removed?

I have seen plaster removed with high pressure, very narrow streams of water. Usually 1500-2000 PSI through a 3/16" hole. I believe it was called a water laser.

If plaster could be removed I would agree with your salvage figure, if not...I gotta stick with mine. But then too, I am lumping all stone structures together and I would bet silos are easily half of the structures built.

Good point on trees, let's include hedges too :)

Kwinn

[Kwinn]

Nalrach,

Oops, almost forgot...the nurse. Well, let's just say morphine was involved. LOL :)

Kwinn

[Senkeleron Fell]

I don't think you can look at it as a real thing. One thing you have to consider is that Novians weigh practically nothing, therefore are very valuable to anyone who has a plot in the middle of nowhere. If you make the return on deconstruction too high, what you end up with is someone with a resource rich plot (like mine in the middle of a kenaf field) making and tearing down a simple item (like a tent in my case) and selling the novians or just applying them elsewhere. No clue how to figure out what the tradeoff would be. Perhaps just increasing the bulk of the Novians would remove the problem entirely. The reason that Novians originally had such low bulk is because it was the devs ripping down our structures, so they had to make it easy as possibly for us to rebuild them. That isn't the case here.

[Kwinn]

I don't think you can look at it as a real thing. One thing you have to consider is that Novians weigh practically nothing, therefore are very valuable to anyone who has a plot in the middle of nowhere. If you make the return on deconstruction too high, what you end up with is someone with a resource rich plot (like mine in the middle of a kenaf field) making and tearing down a simple item (like a tent in my case) and selling the novians or just applying them elsewhere. No clue how to figure out what the tradeoff would be. Perhaps just increasing the bulk of the Novians would remove the problem entirely. The reason that Novians originally had such low bulk is because it was the devs ripping down our structures, so they had to make it easy as possibly for us to rebuild them. That isn't the case here.

I really don't see the problem with making and selling Novians. They would be a commodity, probably a very desired commodity. Coin exchange is between players, no NPC is in the loop. Sounds good to me all the way around


Kwinn

[Senkeleron Fell]

It would be the equivalent of growing comps on the trees on your plot. You don't have a problem with that?

[Custard]

Every craft skill has a sliding scale of success or optimum skill level per tier, why not this?
The amount of Novians returned should depend on a mix of salvage and/or the skill used to put the construction material there in the first place.

It would be good if you could mark a structure for demolition and allow those with the necessary skills to come in and reduce the structure to nothing, of course with the Novians going directly to the plot owner's vault.

I would hope that the return percentages be lower than what is suggested here.
Novians should now require the same level of construction skill to place on a new structure as the original construction unit. After all, a recycled brick is still a brick and not some magic entity that can be used to bypass a skilled builder. (Now that I'm beginning to sound like a paid up member of the Istarian Builders and Labourers Union, I'll exit stage left)

[Vandellia]

Let me put in my Opinions on novians and the rational behind them
1. the plot building screen has issues and untill they fix it to show actual position/footprint of the building being placedit would be nice to tear down a structure to replace it move it as you grow your plot.
2. Their was both money and time spent to put in the resources to build the structure to begin with to have to tear down a structure and recieve nothing back is hurtful.
3. if you upgrade tier wise most of the novians you would get are not usable for the tire and or they arent enought so money will still get spent building the new structures.
4 placing novians gives you no xp or money for doing so

[Nalrach]

If plaster could be removed I would agree with your salvage figure, if not...I gotta stick with mine. But then too, I am lumping all stone structures together and I would bet silos are easily half of the structures built.

Two things struck me in your reply and they both in the same paragraph.

Plaster .... Doubt that in a magical medieval world they would have the tools to blast 1600 PSI. Sure it's a fantassy world, but let be rational. If you visited a medieval castle, how much plaster you see. No they are built of big stone or big shaped block with little to few mortar beetween. IfI'm not mistaken the great pyramids have no mortar at all. On the other end, I believe you classified the mortar and nail in the essence bit, so mortart do not play in the stone recovery. Or if you visited a farm / house built in the late 1800 or early 1900 (which was the type building I worked on), the outside walls where often 12 to 16 inches thick as to give a stable platform to rest upon for the next layer. The inside walls where plaster 1-2 inch thick directly on the stone or a wooden type structure (french word I'm thinking is "late" , thin narrow boards). The inside finishing walls were of course never saved, but external walls had to be saved because of hitorical preservation laws. So I still stand, on the fact that much of the main stone structure could be preserved.

Silo's ... It's look like we always comeback around to silo and the silo farms. The game designer always hated the players to have developped the silo farms. They increase the bulk thinking that some silo would vanish, but instead more silo are poppinp. This is due because now people have many craft school and at high leevl and with the pain some raw rsources are to get since the 2nd level machine are no more in field or resources are guarded by large amount of mobs. We wall taugth the t1 to t2 size crunch was a good idea, we had taugth that t3-t6 would be an optimization of the silo permitting to have less amount of silo, but we know that option did not get chhosen. If by making stone return to be sacrifice to the expense of seeing silo vanish, I think this is not the way to go. But look I migth have read beetween line and be completely in the left field, and if so, I'll be quite please, that I read wrong.

I agree here that I'm preaching for my craft school since I am a mason, but I view more my craft to be on the great builders of this world that created the pyramids, the castle and the cathedrals, where the art of the trade was to cut a stone so it would fit against the next one and have a perfect match not requiring ugly fillings.

[Nalrach]

Every craft skill has a sliding scale of success or optimum skill level per tier, why not this?The amount of Novians returned should depend on a mix of salvage and/or the skill used to put the construction material there in the first place.

This is a good suggestion, but I would probably keep it for a revision of the salvage option. I think we should just get a simple workable solution in the game asap, and try to refine it on a second phase of salvage tools.

Other options for salvage during the next revision are:

- 100% rebuild same type structure token (bound to plot, allowing racial rebuilt)
- Upgrade tokens for same type building (bound to plot, 66% built next teir, 33% two tier up)
- increase ratio if you have the structure type craft
and yours
- Increase ratio depending of who deconstruct part of the building

[Nalrach]

Oops, almost forgot...the nurse. Well, let's just say morphine was involved. LOL [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

you drugged the nurse you little [6]

[Kwinn]

It would be the equivalent of growing comps on the trees on your plot. You don't have a problem with that?

Apples and oranges This would if effect create a cottage industry. Nothing wrong with that at all

Kwinn

[Senkeleron Fell]

You really don't see a problem with someone moving the resources for an entire building (probably an entire plot) around on their cargo disk?

[metagruen]

I do not like the approach to determine the percentage of novian upon deconstruction by refering to real life references.
Especially due to the fact that according to your example it would mean that dim construction is rather bad off. (Not counting the fact, that Essence Construction is the most suckiest of them all :P )

To be fair to all construction classes the amount of all returned resources would have to be the same.

and I think that 2/3 of all resources should be returned at least. Do not make it 100%.

[Custard]

I can't think of any item in game that gives a greater return than 50% when deconstructing at the optimal skill level.

Why should this be any different?

[Nalrach]

I can't think of any item in game that gives a greater return than 50% when deconstructing at the optimal skill level. Why should this be any different?

Are you serious.. of course you are since you made the comment.

Their is a couple reasons why, but let's start with the three basic one's that are time, effort and cash. People have pass many hour and consacreated many hours to build a little corner in Istaria so they could feel part of the game. For many reasons (beautification, larger plot, upgrade of building, re-arrangement because they need to squize another structure, etc..) people need to take down a building. an to make all their effort, say it count for nothing, is a bit un-reasonnable.

The thing that bugs me in your comment is that you compare recuperating a builg for x reason, to a process that is their just to help leveling. Because face it auto-deconstruction is only there for that purpose. If the process be there to learn a formula (like in E&B) that be different, because maybe someone could give a higher standard for that process. No you cannot compare a processus to recuperate hard work to a levelling processus.

Yes,if the offer is too generous on the return the process can be abused by someone that has a lot of cash, by going around buying plot, getting the norvian, resalling the plot and rinssing the process. And I say it bea possible abbuse of the processess. And no binding the Norvian to a plot is not a solution.

[Nalrach]

Okay it looks funny that I reply to my own post, but it's to debate my point and not the point I was answering.

Yes,if the offer is too generous on the return the process can be abused by someone that has a lot of cash, by going around buying plot, getting the norvian, resalling the plot and rinssing the process. And I say it bea possible abbuse of the processess. And no binding the Norvian to a plot is not a solution.

How to prevent the abuse, but not making people loose all their hard work, and not to delaythe deployment of the Norvian too long.

For the folks that just need to move building around on their own plot
>> An option that offer a same type building token, bound to the plot, for an istant rebuild of the structure would be the perfect answer. Yes I heard the argument why should we make life easier for people who can't desing their plot proprly the first time.

For the people that just want to move from one plot to another and their is many rasons (plot too small, move near reasources, larger plot, move near friends)
>> An option to move resources to new plot / new structure, that would put the Norvian on a timer (4-7 days). The return been fairly generous 75-90% return. Yes a penalty because you want to move your plot, but not significantly discouraging, and hopefully enough for making the anti helping people group happy. Just long enough so the person can take their plot down, sell, move to new plot, take 2 day to desing and rebuild.

And last option just for salvaging, a return of permanent Norvian from 50-60%
>> Just plain Norvian that can be stored.

I understand that these would not stop, someone that really want to abuse. but would permit getting the norvian out.

The only way would be a time counter on "" deconstructing / selling / purchassing "" tied to the CDkey, but that is probably a lot of programming. If the 3 keys are trigger in a row within say a week, the selling optionflag is set to false for2 months or reset by staff. This would discourage the attempt to abuse the norvian process and the staff could see if someone abusing the system. Off course this does not prevent someone with 5-7 keys to abuse the system. But it would hep

[Nalrach]

(Not counting the fact, that Essence Construction is the most suckiest of them all [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img] ) To be fair to all construction classes the amount of all returned resources would have to be the same.

I agree it is not a fair table to all trade, but a certain logic need to be used to trie to come to a set of rasonnable return. And since essence is a vague concept, I had no argument to present. The only possible argument is fairness to all trade.

The only way for fairness for all trade would be a flat 80-90%, then a modificator of 1% per tier of skill +1 the owner has when he deconstruct. (the +1 is just an extra because he has skills, this could be adjust if he has at least t2 or t3). The 10% random figure is just to add a risk to the process.

Example :
For a player that is; Mason t5, Enchanter t4 & Fitter t2
so ... 80-90% + 1%(if trade)+ tiervalue
The user gets as return
Stone ......... 86-96%
Essence ...... 85-95%
Metal .......... 83-93%
All other get base 80-90%

This way you have a system that is fair to all trade and use no logic as to the value type of the resources.

That leaves Kwinn to go to Tulga with a choice "fairness or logic" and no matter what the system they will finally choose, some will whine and ********** no matter what and prbably by me first if that figures goes too low. [;)]

[Senkeleron Fell]

I think the easiest and quickest solution for the devs that isn't full of exploitable holes is to allow an entire building to be deconstructed into its component novians, put them in the vault, and make the novians the same bulk as their normal counterpart. They should probably put a warning as you select that option that it may overfill your vault, as some people probably don't have overfull vaults already. Then even 90% recovery wouldn't be bad.

But to prevent the buying-deconstructing-selling loop they might want to consider making the player wait a week after buying a plot before selling it. Otherwise you have someone going around collecting their building resources by destroying anything that isn't owned.