Dragon Lair Update

[Kulamata]

Really, really pleased to see that guild lairs will be available, at least as far as it is possible.

[Goriax]

This is cool beyond words. 137 different corridors and chambers? Heh, no wonder they were stretched putting this in.

And yes, certain games I can think of would DEFINATELY make you pay for this.

One idea perhaps they COULD borrow from other games is break up the download into smaller chunks. Each time there's a patch from now until the lairs release toss in one of the chunks. People still have to download just as much stuff but maybe it won't be quite as painful that way. Perhaps give a heads up so people know there's a huge patch coming in and they might want to dig out a good book.

120m x 120m IS huge! Hopefully, being underground they won't add a lot of urban blight. I like that they'll try to hide the entrances where they can.

About the water level. If you turn off the loading screen so you can see the world loading up, you can often see ocean under what is then covered up by land. Istaria has a water table. Here's a thought. If you dug out a room so that part is above the water level and part below, would you have an underground lake?

With that much space and such a huge number of assets, I can see players getting creative. We might see some pretty interesting lairs.

And I will personally tail slap any dragon who whines that the devs are ignoring dragons after this and AROP go in.

[Theolaerynn]

And I will personally tail slap any dragon who whines that the devs are ignoring dragons after this and AROP go in.

I'll hold 'em for you.

[Hasai]

....About the water level....If you dug out a room so that part is above the water level and part below, would you have an underground lake?

Oooo! Dig into the water table until the water is *just* elbow-deep, add a few lava pools, and presto! A home sauna!
[ip]

[imported_Frith-Rae]

Really, really pleased to see that guild lairs will be available, at least as far as it is possible.

hrm..I see lairs being possible to add on to already established biped guild plots..

but with the fact that we won't be able to connect "groups of lairs" at this time - it means those of us say - in all dragon guilds - won't get REAL "Guild Lairs".

*sighs*

Otherwise WOO HOO loving the information!! Now *must have lair in chiconis...must have lair in chiconis...* I mean I've been sitting in the same place for over a year now and while I"ll be willing to bet there won't bea lair there - at least the lair could be close? :)

However here is one actual, legitmate - concern/question. Will lairs have Helian/Lunus building restrictions on them? As in a Helian can't build those "lava pools" or a Lunus won't be able to have "blue gems" (ala Chiconis 'lairs).

I REALLY hope that is NOT the case because as everyone is aware:

1 - people don't like the fact that you are now dictating what they can put in their lair based on a decision possibly made over a year ago

2 - There are many dragon "mated" pairs of opposite factions. Which would mean that their combined life would not be represented in a lair that only one player, or the other, had "faction building" control over.

So I'm hoping that the lairs will NOT have building assets on them that are in any way dependent on what faction you choose.

But I"m asking the question - or perhaps, encouraging you to keep this out of building "rules" :).

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

About the water level. If you turn off the loading screen so you can see the world loading up, you can often see ocean under what is then covered up by land. Istaria has a water table. Here's a thought. If you dug out a room so that part is above the water level and part below, would you have an underground lake?

No, all lairs will be high enough above sea level that this won't become a problem. Someone asked David about building lairs on Skaalalar, and the comment was made that would be impossible due to flooding.

However here is one actual, legitmate - concern/question. Will lairs have Helian/Lunus building restrictions on them? As in a Helian can't build those "lava pools" or a Lunus won't be able to have "blue gems" (ala Chiconis 'lairs).

David has listed the various types of corridors and rooms in IRC. Never was it mentioned faction would play a role in what a dragon could build. The same can be said for biped plots, as a sslik can build a human house or a gnome can decide to have a dwarven house. 99% positive faction won't matter at all in what you can build.

[Pharcellus]

No, I don't know of any REAL games that would charge you for adding a feature that was stated to be in for free shortly after release.

Now, maybe if there were no plots at all planned to be in at release and it was planned to add them as an expansion, maybe, but not in the same situation.

I guess you will have to tail slap me, then. Getting promised "at release or shortly after" content isn't a privilege worthy of considering whether we're being ignored or not. Same thing applies to Confectioners, client fixes, etc. Once the game is brought up to where it was supposed to be at release for the vast majority of players, and new stuff added, then it will be time again to consider whether we are being ignored or not based on what is added in the future. It is always a relative consideration, not an absolute one.

I mean, with that attitude, pretty soon we'll be at the "should feel lucky you can even log in" stage.

Thus, I reserve the right (as much as it is such) to make complaints about problems in the future, despite hollow threats from my "peers". [;)]

[Goriax]

*tail slaps Pharcellus*

They never said lairs would be in at release. Quite the opposite. They specifically stated before release that lairs would not be in at release. Likewise it was common knowlege the AROP wasn't going in anytime soon.

When EQ2 has new contentjust about all of it you have to pay extra for. The only new content you don't pay extra for tends to be pretty minor stuff. In addition to paying extra for mostnew areas (and we did not pay extra for Trandalar or the southern islands with so much of the housing) in EQ2 you also have to pay extra to play a frogluk (a "lost" race supposedly liberated by players -- does this remind you of any other game?). Anything as big as this you would DEFINATELY have to pay extra for if it had been EQ2.

There will always be something to complain about, but I think the thesis that the devs are neglecting dragons is getting a bit thin. And I reserve to tail slap any dragon who whines on that subject.

[Theolaerynn]

No, I don't know of any REAL games that would charge you for adding a feature that was stated to be in for free shortly after release.

Now, maybe if there were no plots at all planned to be in at release and it was planned to add them as an expansion, maybe, but not in the same situation.

I guess you will have to tail slap me, then. Getting promised "at release or shortly after" content isn't a privilege worthy of considering whether we're being ignored or not. Same thing applies to Confectioners, client fixes, etc. Once the game is brought up to where it was supposed to be at release for the vast majority of players, and new stuff added, then it will be time again to consider whether we are being ignored or not based on what is added in the future. It is always a relative consideration, not an absolute one.

I mean, with that attitude, pretty soon we'll be at the "should feel lucky you can even log in" stage.

Thus, I reserve the right (as much as it is such) to make complaints about problems in the future, despite hollow threats from my "peers". [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]

Oye. Always one in the crowd, eh?

No one is saying you have to sing about how perfect life is. Hell, no one is saying you have to sing at all. It is just that it is obvious the Devs are working hard to give us some things we have been lacking for a very long time, and they deserve credit for that.

You can certainly continue to whine as you have done for so long now, and some of it will even be legitimate. That is certainly your right, and seemingly your perogative. I just know that I for one will be much less inclined to listen.

[Ulkesh]

the main reason i quit eq2 was because of all that pay per dungeon bs. if i had to pay cash for lairs when bipeds get plots by default i would be kinda ticked off.

but after so long i am just happy to finally hear its nearing and cant wait to get my hands on a piece of the sky to call my home.

[Pharcellus]

*tail slaps Pharcellus*

Swing and a miss!! [:P]

They never said lairs would be in at release.

*hands Goriax some gnome glasses* Nor did I state such. The words I used were "shortly after release" and mentioning them as part of the content that was in the general category of "at release or shortly after"; such echoes what was said to the beta players at the time, with the qualification about a "problem with the floating lairs" that would be resolved quickly and would get them into the game "not long after release", with a further qualification "maybe a few months" when pressed.

Likewise it was common knowlege the AROP wasn't going in anytime soon.

I was well aware of that and didn't challenge it.

When EQ2 has new content just about all of it you have to pay extra for. The only new content you don't pay extra for tends to be pretty minor stuff. In addition to paying extra for most new areas (and we did not pay extra for Trandalar or the southern islands with so much of the housing) in EQ2 you also have to pay extra to play a frogluk (a "lost" race supposedly liberated by players -- does this remind you of any other game?). Anything as big as this you would DEFINATELY have to pay extra for if it had been EQ2.

Were new areas and frogluks billed as "base content" that was slated to be part of the base game you were paying for? No. Lairs were. RoP and ARoP are also considered "base content" that was described as "no expansion" content several times when people asked, but they weren't promised "at" release. We did know that they would be down the road.

They could have charged for Trandalar, but charging for simply adding landmass, fluff, plots, and a few spawn zones isn't really part of their "dynamic world" strategy. Plus, I believe much of Trandalar was already done before the merge as part of the content they were going to roll out over time as the world unfolds.

Thank god we didn't have to pay for the remaking of the world, either. That would have been REAL good.

There will always be something to complain about, but I think the thesis that the devs are neglecting dragons is getting a bit thin. And I reserve to tail slap any dragon who whines on that subject.

No, I believe that they are rectifying a long-standing neglect, but that doesn't obviate potential future neglect that could be valid and pointed out.

I don't particularly feel neglected at the moment, hence I have not been as actively campaigning as in the past. There are still issues, but I have been preaching patience for Lairs and ARoP for a LONG time.

No one is saying you have to sing about how perfect life is. Hell, no one is saying you have to sing at all.

Yeah, that's basically the gist of what Goriax said. He'll tailslap any Dragon who whines about Dragons being neglected AFTER Lairs and ARoP go in. Sounds pretty absolute / open-ended to me.

It is just that it is obvious the Devs are working hard to give us some things we have been lacking for a very long time, and they deserve credit for that.

Preaching to the choir here. Like I said, I've been asking for patience from everyone for Lairs and ARoP specifically for a LONG time.

You can certainly continue to whine as you have done for so long now, and some of it will even be legitimate. That is certainly your right, and seemingly your perogative. I just know that I for one will be much less inclined to listen.

I don't complain for your benefit (well, I do if you have the same concerns, but I mean I don't post complaints for YOU SPECIFICALLY to read), so really couldn't care less if you "listened" or not. The devs are the targets of my complaint posts about the game, not you.

[dorrin]

goriax wrote:

> One idea perhaps they COULD borrow from other games is break up the download
> into smaller chunks.

great idea.

and i _knew_ there was something else i wanted to say. as was pointed out by others.

charging players for the lair download? did bipeds have to pay extra for their homes?

[Pharcellus]

No, but if you listen to SOME people here, we should be thankful we don't have to buy an expansion every time a sector of terrain is updated. [8-)]

[Xorith]

First of all, this argument doesn't belong here.

Second of all, -- 4 year EQ veteran. SOE constantly makes promises an then delivers them in an expansion you must pay for. That is much of what David was talking about. I know this for a fact, as I've paid for all 8 EQ expansions (or is it 9? I lost count...)

Thirdly, Artifact Entertainment may have said that Lairs would be in shortly after release. Artifact Entertainment went belly-up, and Tulga Games is now the owner of this game. Any previous promises granted by the former company are null and void. Not to mention that a developer saying 'It should be in shortly after release' is absolutely no promise that it will be 'free of charge' as well.

Lastly, you can't argue 'bipeds didn't pay for their housing', as that's what you HOPE. What is reality, is that a game developer can pick and choose what they release for free, and what they decide to roll into an expansion.

I'd just shut up, and be thankful THIS game developer is making it free for us. If the lot of you offered suggestions nearly half the time as you offered complaints, these boards might be bursting full with the future of Istaria by now.

-- Xorith

[Death-knell]

Well Xor, actually I can and will hold Tulga accountable. Same company new name. AE went belly up and Chris bellied up the cash for Tulga. Nothing changed except name and it wasn't Devs making the promises but the president/ceo

[Theolaerynn]

Second of all, -- 4 year EQ veteran. SOE constantly makes promises an then delivers them in an expansion you must pay for. That is much of what David was talking about. I know this for a fact, as I've paid for all 8 EQ expansions (or is it 9? I lost count...)

Yep, yep. On top of that the customer service I received and witnessed was dispicable. For instance, when I went to get my Wizard Epic there were two others there waiting because it had bugged out on them. The Wizard Epic quest had been bugging out seemingly at random for 18 months, so it was something of a crap shoot to turn in your quest.

The fact that class-pinacle elder game content was broken for 18 months while SOE released three purchase-only expansions should underline quite well how SOE thought of its player base. The Wizard Epic was not the only broken epic.

Anyway, the Wizard Epic Quest resulted in having 3 staves for the second to last turn in. These 3 staves represented about 6 months of solid effort if you were in a small guild, and got lucky enough to not only find Venril Sathir uncontested, but to also have the raid force necessary to take him, *and* to have him actually drop the staff. PITA.

Well, some folks were fortunate enough to know people willing to turn in one of their staves for them (they were not droppable or tradeable), either to be nice or for gold. This could dramatically cut down on the effort necessary, but required a bit of care when turning in the staves because if the wrong person turned in their piece last then they got the quest reward instead. The ability to have people help you turn quest items in was an unsuported 'feature', and SOE stated that anyone using the feature would not get any help if they borked the quest, or the quest just flat failed.

So one guy there had two dudes do turn-ins with him, and the other guy had one other person help him. Myself, I had all 3 staves and was doing the quest as intended. The quest borked on me too and ate my 3 staves, leaving me in the position of either getting help from customer service or starting the whole thing over. It had taken me close to a year to get everything together, so the latter option was not high on my list. So I waited for a GM (in game customer service, Game Master) with the other two. One guy had been waiting 36 hours, the other mid-20's. All three of us waited another 12. Yea, we were all hard core in those days.

To make a long story less long, the GM showed up, gave the first guy his epic, told the other guy that it sucked to be him (in only slightly better words), and gave me my 3 staves back and told me not to turn them in again until the quest was fixed (it was not fixed for another 8 months). He did this while all three of us were standing next to each other, and didn't care in the slightest that we saw how blatantly different he was handling each situation, and how he was breaking SOE's posted rules. Nice. F* SOE.

Lastly, you can't argue 'bipeds didn't pay for their housing', as that's what you HOPE. What is reality, is that a game developer can pick and choose what they release for free, and what they decide to roll into an expansion.

You *have* played the game, right? Bi-peds did very much get housing free. Sure, there is more to come, but the fact remains that bi-peds can own a plot and build their house on it. Dragons cannot. They can own a plot, but they cannot build. There is no 'hope' about it, it is fact.

[Jayne]

:) Amazing

Jayne

[Goriax]

I was relatively lucky by EQ1 standards, I only had to wait 8 months for them to fix my epic. I still remember all the friends I accompanied to do turn ins for major parts of epic quests and them getting nada. It got so that many people would take screenshots of their inventory just before a turnin (I don't know if that helped)and one refused to do it without a guide present (I don't know if he ever got one).

Anyway, as I already said, I'm not going to let the people who insist on finding something to complain about ruin my fun. If they wantto moan and complainI can't stop them but I'm not going to join them or even read their posts. I'm as aware as they are what's been going on but I'd rather look forward. So maybe I'm a"glass is half full" kind of guy when it comes to the game I'm playing. Imake absolutely no apologies for that. If I stopped finding this game fun I wouldn'tspend all my time grousing around on these boards, I'd move on to something I did find fun.I don't have enough time to waste it ona "game" I didn't enjoy.

Back to David's post and his list of tier I rooms. So, if the plot is 120m x 120m and the rooms are typically 24m square (although it could be some multiple of that with different multiples in either direction I guess) then each level has 25 "squares". I presume some higher tier rooms will span more then one level (I want at least one nice living room with a really high ceiling). Until I see otherwise I'm going to assume higher tiers have equivalent rooms.

It would still be nice to know if neighbors can connect their lairs underground if they both want to.

The waterfall sounds intriguing. I'll have to see how I can work that in but it would be a nice touch -- especially if I can work it intothe bigliving roomarea. Since I've never played a biped with a plot, I'm inexperienced how to do things, but I guess I'll want to build at least one silo near the entrance so I can use itas I dig farther in.Likewise a shrine. I may later tear them down and move them farther back (the novians may be coming just in time). I suspect I'll be refining raw materials close to their source so I'll only need the crafting stations if further refinement is needed before the resources can be applied. If they are then I guess they need to go in front too. For awhile my lairmay resemble a house under construction (well, maybe a tunnel under construction) what with all the crafting stuff by the entrance.

I wonder what the lair room called "lair" is. Sounds like I'll want one though.

I never was a big fan of the crystals scattered all over Dralk and Chiconis so maybe I'll just skip those. It'llbe nice to have my own place where I have some say in what it looks like.

I think I"m going to be spending a lot of timeplaying withthe planning screen as soon as I can pull it up.

[Pharcellus]

It would still be nice to know if neighbors can connect their lairs underground if they both want to.

Already been said by David that they might consider looking at it down the road, but it won't be part of the Lair release. Personally, I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Ulkesh]

First of all, this argument doesn't belong here.

Second of all, -- 4 year EQ veteran. SOE constantly makes promises an then delivers them in an expansion you must pay for. That is much of what David was talking about. I know this for a fact, as I've paid for all 8 EQ expansions (or is it 9? I lost count...)

Thirdly, Artifact Entertainment may have said that Lairs would be in shortly after release. Artifact Entertainment went belly-up, and Tulga Games is now the owner of this game. Any previous promises granted by the former company are null and void. Not to mention that a developer saying 'It should be in shortly after release' is absolutely no promise that it will be 'free of charge' as well.

Lastly, you can't argue 'bipeds didn't pay for their housing', as that's what you HOPE. What is reality, is that a game developer can pick and choose what they release for free, and what they decide to roll into an expansion.

I'd just shut up, and be thankful THIS game developer is making it free for us. If the lot of you offered suggestions nearly half the time as you offered complaints, these boards might be bursting full with the future of Istaria by now.

-- Xorith

Reasoning like this is why I quit eq and eq2. paying for parts of the game that do not merit it is absurd.

I do appreciate that this content is being added for the player base without cost. I'm also very happy it is finally near completion. I'm not griping or complaining, I am just talking.

If tulga wanted to roll lairs into a real expansion, new monster types, land, QUESTS, classes, etc.. then I wouldn't mind as much, even though i feel that by default lairs should be free. Lairs by themselves however, no matter how much time and effort went into them, are not a valid purpose for an expansion IMO.

In the end, its gonna be free because they don't want to risk alienating any more customers.
They know alot of people feel that horizons owes them lairs just because they have stuck with the game for so long. I would have paid for it if the price was reasonable, but I am very very very happy I don't have to.