How could the crafting system be made better?

[imported_tjl]

smeg, I think the outright barring of earning xp outside of those "primary skills" is a bit too much. a % reduction might be much more reasonable.

[imported_Ssilmath]

I'm actually a big fan of removing XP if you aren't using a primary skill...While it would mean that if I want to work on weaponsmith I have to make weapons and not tools, that's a very good thing...

Now, there is one flaw to this...If I use my Armorer skills to level Outfitter (Which should have armorsmithing as a primary skill) then I also get free clothworking and leather working skills (Which would also be primary skills) and then I am free to use those skills to work up Tailor...From there I can go to scholar (Which I believe uses clothworking as a skill, don't know if it would be a primary) and then along my merry way...Conversly, a scholar, who gets clothworking, could easily break into the outfitting side of things with those skills...

So, in short, you would have to narrow the skills recieved when leveling to the primary skills or else there will be workarounds...

[Crazyfingers]

I see that you are an Enchanter, Torvos.

To me as long as the making of essense construction items and placing them on a plot is equal in terms of experience to the current process. Nuthing has really changed as far as the grind goes.

Just really adds the element of investment of time. Would you rather gather the essense and process it yourself? or pay someone else for their time and effort. Either way your still gaining experience in Enchanting. But now the option of entering the market has some merit.

"I'm not gonna gain any experience gathering essense anyways, I might as well buy the orbs and save some time."

NimK

[Valornyx]

Seems very interesting to me in that it would be like a return to the old days of dragon hoard where it all had to be made.. The best way for a hatchie to build hoard (other than having someone give it to him/her) was to team up with a blacksmith /weaponsmith- both collect ore and then feed it to the smith to refine and makesomething for the hatchie to hoard

Worked both to the benefit of the hatchie and the smith.

Now you might well get a smith and a miner going out to work in teams - you getone resource - I get the other - then we come together again - I make the bars and you make the tools .. win / win...

**Hurries off to get as many craft levels in before these changes go through.

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

Oh, I like the idea, Bulgrim. I've never met a tinker yet who levelled making tinkerer items - it will be nice to get good XP for making cargo.

If the XP change is worth it, and tinkers retain the skill to make tools and whatnot, even if they don't get XP for it, then I don't object as much.

Yep, they need to get the experience right. Mithril Tinkering Springs at 65exp each ain't gonna cut it. Hinges at 74 exp each - woohoo.

Iron Silk Legs were 7k exp and sleeves 3800.... that is a lot of work for nothing.

Developers, I hope you guys take the time to actually test each class IN EACH TIER before you decide what the experience gains should be.

Bulgrim

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

Seems very interesting to me in that it would be like a return to the old days of dragon hoard where it all had to be made.. The best way for a hatchie to build hoard (other than having someone give it to him/her) was to team up with a blacksmith /weaponsmith- both collect ore and then feed it to the smith to refine and makesomething for the hatchie to hoard

Worked both to the benefit of the hatchie and the smith.

Now you might well get a smith and a miner going out to work in teams - you getone resource - I get the other - then we come together again - I make the bars and you make the tools .. win / win...

**Hurries off to get as many craft levels in before these changes go through.

Actually, having looked at what they decided to do - it reminds me very much of the way a Tinkerer is supposed to level since launch and the design of the class.

Bulgrim

[imported_tjl]

I see that you are an Enchanter, Torvos.

To me as long as the making of essense construction items and placing them on a plot is equal in terms of experience to the current process. Nuthing has really changed as far as the grind goes.

Just really adds the element of investment of time. Would you rather gather the essense and process it yourself? or pay someone else for their time and effort. Either way your still gaining experience in Enchanting. But now the option of entering the market has some merit.

"I'm not gonna gain any experience gathering essense anyways, I might as well buy the orbs and save some time."

NimK

*if essense structuring is to become the "main" skill*
I don't mind them moving all the xp over to construction... but they better add some structures that take more than tier1 and tier2... as it is now there is very few things to apply in the t4/t5 areas.

*if enchanting and/or essense shaping gets removed as xp-able* then:
I see this change as really making enchanter even more worthless, since the two main (and only really viable) ways of leveling will be removed. That being making orbs, and purifying orbs. They might also allow enchanting to be a "xp-able" skill, in which case its just the xp moving from making orbs to the processing of them.

if they do this, they might as well remove transmutation since its pointless really, remove all those blighted cleansing forms since they are worthless... and just make ench a pure building class.

until more is revealed though, this is all just speculation. however, it does not sound like a very thought out plan on Tulgas part.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

until more is revealed though, this is all just speculation. however, it does not sound like a very thought out plan on Tulgas part.

QFT

[Crazyfingers]

would agree that certain schools would need some work. But think the idea is a sound one. Would be far less enchanters around that are not really enchanters(just grinders). Maybe essense structuring and some new skill that invovles enchanting could be the primary. Enchanting statues or buildings, heck if I know.

BEING an ENCHANTER would mean something again. Not just another class that someone grinds out for the sake of leveling.

NimK

[Bori Grimbattle]

Two parts...first an idea then some discussion on experiance points...

An idea may be to grant a substantial experiance boost to adding a tech to an item. This would then develop into more people placing tech'd items for sale as well as increase the demand for tech components.

The only problem this would create is the construction classes do not have an option to tech something to gain the bonus.

************************************

Make sure the experiance is based on the number of components that go into a finished product. So a mithril bar for example would give more experiance then a yew board or marble brick on the miner/gatherer level.

Construction classes would have to be addressed as they will only use one resource and do not have the option to decon the construction materials.

Construction class gain cannot be dependant on the actual placing/building of an object for eventually there will be little to build unless a new Event brings something. The major xp gain for those classes would have to be in the creating of the constructs.

Finally, have equal level crafters in different schools do time studies before it all goes live. Then tweak the experiance gainded in each class according to the time taken to make a level in each Tier. For example 5 to 6, 15 to 16, 25 to 26. Taking the sample in the middle of the Tier would give a fair result. Of course all things would have to be equal or as close to it as possible, so I cannot offer a suggestion for the differences between resource location and machine locations/ports.

At least then you would have little room for the argument that Widget builders can level faster then thingamabob builders.

One point. Base classes such as scholar, outfitter, blacksmith should be easier/quicker to level then the more focused classes such as spellcrafter/weaponsmith/fletcher/armorer.

That was about 4 and a half coppers worth.

[Death-knell]

Well I'm reserving judgement till I actually get to experience it, which of course will be too late by then.

But it does scare me to think of all the bars/bricks/orbs I've made for construction items and to help people make things. Why would I want to keep doing that? other then just for my friends and guildees. This system sounds like it making processing raw materials a waste of time for most classes. So basically bipeds would be encouraged to multi with gatherer or other some such and dragons....well they missed the elevator and here comes the.......[:P]

And I really feel sorry for enchanters, I have an 80th level one and 90% of my XP came from processing and purifying.

[LaughingOtter]

Actually, having looked at what they decided to do - it reminds me very much of the way a Tinkerer is supposed to level since launch and the design of the class.

Yep. I did a lot of pure tinker levels - getting metal, orbs, stone & fabric from other crafters. It was hell. It was a great relief to discover that I could level on soupbowls.

How many cargo disks should you have to make to gain a level, though? You can't really grind on the things and the market for CDs & cargo gear gets smaller as you level up. I think this is a good idea, but yes, lots of testing at all tiers will be in order.

[Smeglor]

Regarding the Outfitter and Armorcrafter example: yes, if you get to a high level in Outfitter, you will be able to easily gain levels in Armorcrafter because they bothhave Armorcrafting as a primary skill. Of course, your Armorcrafting skill won't increase from those Armorcrafter levels until it surpasses what you received from Outfitter, so that really doesn't help you that much. In short, there will still be a few cases where a high level in one craft school will assist you in gaining levels in another, but they will be much more logical.

In the current plan Scholars' primary skills are Sculpting and Spellcrafting.
Enchanters' are Enchanting, Essence Structuring, and Transmutation.

For construction schools, we plan to improve and extend the tasks offered by the trainers. So while contributing your construction resources to an actual structure would give the most experience, you can simply turn in the resources to your trainer for acceptable experience if no construction projects are available.

[imported_tjl]

Thanks for clarifying the enchanter skills. If that is how it will be, then this change is not all that rough.

[Death-knell]

In the current plan Scholars' primary skills are Sculpting and Spellcrafting.
Enchanters' are Enchanting, Essence Structuring, and Transmutation.

For construction schools, we plan to improve and extend the tasks offered by the trainers. So while contributing your construction resources to an actual structure would give the most experience, you can simply turn in the resources to your trainer for acceptable experience if no construction projects are available.

Thanks, that does address some of my concerns. Especially since I will be concentrating in lairshaping as soon as its available.


hmmm....gave this some more thought. remembering back to the massive worldprojects like the satyr tunnels, where I spent hours flying resources and the only XP I got was from gather and processing the raw materials I could. This new system would take away any reason to help with world projects except for the more altruistic members of my race.

[LaughingOtter]

More likely, future world projects will also require lairshaping resources.

[kengar]

*if enchanting and/or essense shaping gets removed as xp-able* then:
I see this change as really making enchanter even more worthless, since the two main (and only really viable) ways of leveling will be removed. That being making orbs, and purifying orbs. They might also allow enchanting to be a "xp-able" skill, in which case its just the xp moving from making orbs to the processing of them.

My guess is that essence shaping will be no-XP, just as smelting would be for an outfitter, but since Enchanter is the only class that gets enchanting, I can't see them taking away the XP for it.

On the other hand, that inverts the current situation, where currently, Enchanter has the hardest time getting xp of the construction classes, all of a sudden it would be the only construction class that can get XP for doing something other than construction.

Still, I'd rather invert the situation rather than wind up in a position where noone gets XP for making purified orbs. As an alchemist, my only sources of purified shiny orbs are enchanters that are grinding levels. Take that away, and the price of potions will probably go up.

Overall, I like the idea, though I do see one potential issue. Taking away a construction classes ability to make XP off of non-construction work will hurt, especially since machine shops don't take odd-tiered construction materials. Without the ability to grind through those levels of weaver that are cotton-appropriate, I may never get my weaver class high enough to do silk, since there just isn't that much cotton weaving work to do. Stone/Wood/Metal at least has silos, but to the best of my knowledge, the only things that would use T2/T5 essence or cloth would be houses (and the new single machine building that's an odd duck, taking T5 resources for an expert shop).

Now, if the construction classes get enough XP that they can level making and pawning cotton construction bolts/tapestries at a reasonable rate, then that might work, but without knowing how far they're planning on increasing the XP, this is a concern.

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

Kengar,

Smeglor mentioned in a post above that const class trainers will get upgraded quests that ask for const materials - it will take them off your hands and give you exp for turning them in.

And YES - they need to make tier 3 const more viable - don't see why they can't add somethings that are fluff which would require those resources OR enhance some rarely used ones.

Speaking of which - I would really like to see the Ivy arches get upgraded from along solidrectangle to only the post markings being used as the "foot print" on plot planning. I want to build these - but I want a path to go THROUGH them as well.

Bulgrim

[kengar]

Smeglor mentioned in a post above that const class trainers will get upgraded quests that ask for const materials - it will take them off your hands and give you exp for turning them in.

He also mentioned that enchanters will have enchanting as a primary skill. Bad day for keeping up with news for me, for some reason I didn't notice that there was a second page to this thread until after I posted that.[:$]

And YES - they need to make tier 3 const more viable - don't see why they can't add somethings that are fluff which would require those resources OR enhance some rarely used ones.

Sounds like a good idea. I'd be willing to place something on my plot to practice on, but really, what's the smallest thing that takes T3 enchanting/weaving now?

[Crazyfingers]

Dig the posts! People might take this the wrong way and call me an a-hole, but I just gotta say it. Most crafters in horizons are not crafters. They are grinders.
Most adventurers left in Horizons are not hunters. They are grinders. Maybe because they were forced to become one, but non the less they are grinders.

I have met many of folk that have 7x100 adventure classes that dont even know about teching spells. And even more 'so called crafters' that actually get annoyed at the thought of making someone something. They dont play their class, the just move on to the next. Over and over. Its so boring.

I applaud a change like this. Its bold, exciting, and refreshing.People can still play whatever way the want. But folks that are actually playing their class will get rewarded finally!

About construction classes, would be neat to see construction gain experience on every item they placed. Be it a sandstone block or a marble keystone. So even if you are a level 88 mason, as long as you are building, you are gaining exp. Maybe not as much for a SS block but still some experience.

Have experienced my fair share of guild build projects and the most frustrating thing, is not getting experience for lower tier resources that take the same amount of time as the higher tiered ones.

NimK