Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
I love to grind. Cant you tell by all my posts?
GrindGrindGrindGrind
visit tech comp consigner outside of Veilos
No comps there
buy comps from veilo
Grindgrindgrindgrind
switch schools
Grindgrindgrind
Am I missing something? Thought thats how I was supposed to play.
NimKhazad
redo the loot tables and bring on the undead hordes!
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
NimK grind is a component of many games, yes even the wildly successful WoW. It's the increase in grind for no purpose than to slow levelling that is wrong in my view and it won't keep my subscription open.Originally Posted by Crazyfingers
Do you seriously think that crafting is not enough of a mind numbing drudgery? I was looking forward to levelling my smith and then powering up a few more craft classes. So what if I did, I know plent of others have and I would have enjoyed it. Now if this change goes though I get to cancel my subscription.
I know I know don't let the door hit my bum on the way out LOL. It won't because I'll leave so ******** fast it aint funny.
Fleshrend - Chaos Server
94 Cleric 12 Warrior 10 monk 8 mage
100 Blacksmith 100 Mason 91 tinkerer 100 Carpenter 100 Fitter 80 Scholar 73 spellcrafter 41 gatherer 49 Miner
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
Belezar, it is I who dont fit in. Keep playing, enjoy your stay in Horizons. I have reread all your post and have changed my mind. This change is stupid and will only cause the remaining players to leave.
NimKhazad
redo the loot tables and bring on the undead hordes!
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
Man has this post taken a downward spiral...
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
What was this post about again?
60% Achiever
46% Socializer
46% Explorer
46% Killer
Redo the loot tables and bring on the undead hordes! (*Hands Nimk a Beer)
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
Which is worse than what we have how? If you want to discuss the faults of this suggestion, you might want to stick to faults that the existing system doesn't have. Or is this another case of the idea isn't perfect, so it's not worth doing?
Not sure I answered this question already in this thread, but I know I did somewhere that this issue was being discussed. Because it was somewhere to put smelting XP after I maxed blacksmith and fitter.
I doubt that character will ever need to make any jewelery. Why? Because lvl 100 jewelers are a dime a dozen because of this form of power leveling. If there were any shortage of jewelers, I'd grind my way up however necessary. It's not, so frankly, I don't care if that character ever reaches lvl 100 jeweler.
You assume too much about me. I was the second person in a fairly large guild to grind two seperate characters to lvl 100 crafter. With a few exceptions, the craft grind here is at least more interesting than crafting in most other games.
It would depend. If there were a need for jewelers, I would grind on the finished products. If there weren't, I wouldn't. The problem that this form of powerleveling has had on the game is that it cheapens achievement, making high level crafters a dime a dozen.
And touch typing has been a remarkably beneficial skill for computer programmers for decades. However, you can touch type all day long every day of your life, and it won't teach you one thing about computer programming. In Horizons, the smelting skill involves the process of turning ore into bars. You're not going to learn a lot about how to handle the metal from that process.
Yet again with "it doesn't fix everything, it must be a worthless idea." Personally, I don't have a problem with it not fixing everything, because the change does fix the biggest problem, reward for effort. Being able to level several times faster by T5 processing than by doing the actual work the class is centered around is a violation of this concept. The point isn't to take away the processing XP, it's to get rid of a shortcut.
Even with this change, a level 100 blacksmith can level jeweler faster than someone that's just a jeweler, because they can gather ore/gems faster and smelt more efficiently. I don't have a problem with that, as it's reasonable reward for effort.
As I pointed out before, assumption on your part. I did blacksmith and outfitter the hard way, blacksmith was never more than 40 levels ahead of outfitter. I did jeweler just to have someplace to put the XP. So no, I'm not yanking up the ladder after I've gone up it.
And yes, it does diminish some peoples legitimate enjoyment of the game. This shortcut inflates the number of lvl 100 multicrafters, making it so that noone feels special. I remember back when lvl 100 crafters were rare. Crafters felt needed, special, not dime a dozen.
So because you can't get XP for interacting positively with the community and making coin, this is a "big negative"? It's really sad that the community has fallen this far. When I started playing Horizons, Many people would often spend 10-20 hours a weekend muling for construction projects, gaining no XP at all, as well as making no money. Heck, there were people paying to port so that they could run construction resources out to the site. And we did it for the community.
See touch typing/computer programming above. Smelting in Horizons has nothing to do with working the metal.
No, actually, I don't. What I want is for reasonable reward for effort. The fact that you can level jeweler several times faster by T5 smelting than by making lower tiered jewelery is wrong, given the use of smelting in Horizons.
First, Horizons smelting is turning ore into bars, there's no working of the finished metal involved. Second, every piece of player craftable jewelry in Horizons takes gems.
Already answered above, and my choice would have almost no bearing on the dilution of crafter achievement and reward for effort.
No, that's your assumption, not the answer. The answer is above.
Nope, I'm not concerned with the "right" way to play a craft class. In fact, the reward for effort is purely a gameplay issue.
You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that the whole reason that some people think this is a good idea is because they think crafting classes should be played a certain way, or that blacksmiths/jewelers/etc shouldn't receive smelting XP.
I'm no more interested in forcing an unreasonable grind on anyone than you are about wanting a button to push to become lvl 100 in all crafts. It's all about reasonable reward for effort, and leveling several times faster doing nothing but smelting isn't reasonable.
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
The idea is not perfect it's simply absurd. Jewlers have a large smelting component in fashioning items, more so than gem setting. You just want to keep lvl 100 crafters "rare" or "special" Guess what the game is not longer in the "when if first came out" stage people are going to have multiple lvl 100 crafters.
Again if it's so enjoyable or gives you and others a sense of achievement, then why don't you use your free choice. Instead you use your free choice to powerlevel your crafter up and then you get upset when others do the same and complain about how in a mature game lvl 100 crafters are not longer "rare" or "special"
The point of the matter is that you bootstrapped when you had an alternate choice. So much for enjoyable crafting and fulfillment by doing it the LONG way. [8-)] The majority of crafting in this game is gathering resource and shuffling it around at a painfully slow pace on a cargo disk. THIS IS BORING. Even levelling a single craft is boring speed 15-18 travel is hardly exciting as you take a 10min journey to create some ore and finished product in 30 seconds.
[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:Who exactly forced you to smelt mithril to gain jewler levels? Thats right no one at all it was your own free choice. You could have chosen to level up in the manner you advocate, care to tell us why you didn't?
Not sure I answered this question already in this thread, but I know I did somewhere that this issue was being discussed. Because it was somewhere to put smelting XP after I maxed blacksmith and fitter.
I doubt that character will ever need to make any jewelery. Why? Because lvl 100 jewelers are a dime a dozen because of this form of power leveling. If there were any shortage of jewelers, I'd grind my way up however necessary. It's not, so frankly, I don't care if that character ever reaches lvl 100 jeweler.The point is you had the free choice to level up a Jewler without smelting mithril and you chose not to. Now you want to force me to level up in a manner that you yourself avoided for the benefit of the game. Give me a break.
[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:Or is the answer painfully evident that GRIND is woefully atrocious in Horizons crafting already. Yet you would force players like me to suffer such mind numbing grind for your supposed technially correct way of levelling up on finished items.Lvl 100 crafters and adventurers are a dime a dozen. You have a mature game with long term players it's what happens. The game is no longer in the "when it just came out stage". I feel sorry that you will feel better by having powergamed your crafter(s) to multiple high levels and then want to watch new players struggle to reach your level.
Im sorry but this is not going to fix fundamental problems that horizons has "real issues" that stop Horizons from attracting more players. But if these craft changes do come in at least you can feel good as the population heads towards zero. I mean you must be better you powergamed up and now these newbies don't have the stomach to reach your lofty level?
Wake up people don't like GRIND, MMOG games are moving away from needless pointless grind. You think by adding grind it will revatilize Horizons LOL. My account is already iced up, and Im not playing it and Im a returning customer. It's easier to keep existing and previous customers than attract NEW ones. You are dreaming if you think this change in any way will make horizons better. Sure it might make you and other uber crafters feel good but it's not going to attract paying customers.
You assume too much about me. I was the second person in a fairly large guild to grind two seperate characters to lvl 100 crafter. With a few exceptions, the craft grind here is at least more interesting than crafting in most other games.
I was looking forward to having some fun by bootstrapping and levelling up alternate crafters faster, MUCH FASTER. I won't hang around for this additional induced boredom.
Touch typing, why not add breathing as a skill then ROFLMAO. I've never seen a programming job with a typing requirement LOL, because typing is not necessary at all to be a good programmer. Do you think programmers punch out code at 50, 80, or 100wpm? LOL well at least you brought a smile to my face. Priceless that one :)[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:Let me tell you this would you be so worried about levelling a jewler on smelting if the smelting took ten times as long as gathering and processing resources for finished product?
I bet if that were the case you would have made finished product as intended and it would not worry you because no one is powergaming, but what the heck you've made your Jewler off smelting time to stop it for anyone?
It would depend. If there were a need for jewelers, I would grind on the finished products. If there weren't, I wouldn't. The problem that this form of powerleveling has had on the game is that it cheapens achievement, making high level crafters a dime a dozen.
[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:Smiths in years past have smelted as a primary part of their craft.You cheapened your own achievement by your own admission. If it were so enjoyable and fulfilling why didn't you take the alternate route and GRIND the levels in the way you are trying to force other people to?
The game is mature it's what happens, do you honestly think that people that do stay won't achieve multiple lvl 100 classes?
And touch typing has been a remarkably beneficial skill for computer programmers for decades. However, you can touch type all day long every day of your life, and it won't teach you one thing about computer programming. In Horizons, the smelting skill involves the process of turning ore into bars. You're not going to learn a lot about how to handle the metal from that process.
Pardon me but didn't you level your Jewler off mithril bars? Prior to placing my account on ice, i've levelled up my blacksmith the hard way. Often due to lack of a functioning market without optimum tools, cargo gear, disk, backpack or reaping potions. It's not fun at all, I was looking forward to becoming more versatile to my guild and community which incidentally has been hemorrhaging players for other fundamental game play reasons.[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:So it makes sense to eliminate all xp from smelting leave the glaring absurdity of levelling up on one item like an axe or plane and then being able to make many tens of un related items to a T5 level.
Yet again with "it doesn't fix everything, it must be a worthless idea." Personally, I don't have a problem with it not fixing everything, because the change does fix the biggest problem, reward for effort. Being able to level several times faster by T5 processing than by doing the actual work the class is centered around is a violation of this concept. The point isn't to take away the processing XP, it's to get rid of a shortcut.
Even with this change, a level 100 blacksmith can level jeweler faster than someone that's just a jeweler, because they can gather ore/gems faster and smelt more efficiently. I don't have a problem with that, as it's reasonable reward for effort.You took the exact same short cut. If it's so enjoyable and rewarding why did you not take the path that would lead your personally to greater entelechy? Why now after you have powergamed is there a problem with other people doing the same as you have in the past?
Will you only feel actualized and rewared by having taken a shortcut and then forcing others to grind mindlessly to reach your level? Thats what it sounds like, you're not adding anyting enjoyable to the game thats for sure.
[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:For game purposes it's fine to keep it as it is. Even you levelled you jewler off smelting, why because of the mind numbing boredom of doing it the other way. So why now force this change onto others. It's not fun, it does not enhance game play in any way and diminishes my legitimate enjoyment of the game.
As I pointed out before, assumption on your part. I did blacksmith and outfitter the hard way, blacksmith was never more than 40 levels ahead of outfitter. I did jeweler just to have someplace to put the XP. So no, I'm not yanking up the ladder after I've gone up it.
The game is mature it is not longer 3-6 months after release. You have to expect that as players stay for the long term they will level multiple crafters, you are adding nothing to gameplay with your proposal. Sure you may feel better for a short while as it takes slightly longer for players to level up, but for those that do stay will eventaully have multiple lvl 100 crafts.And yes, it does diminish some peoples legitimate enjoyment of the game. This shortcut inflates the number of lvl 100 multicrafters, making it so that noone feels special. I remember back when lvl 100 crafters were rare. Crafters felt needed, special, not dime a dozen.
I truly feel sorry that you feeling good has to do with you powergamed your craft class and now you are advocating a play style on players that you yourself to great pains to avoid. Again why if it is so enjoyable and gives that much fulfilment and reward did you choose to level of your own free will your jewler off mithril?
Hell yes it's a big negative. This is crafting at it's finest, you gain a little xp, you can contribute to the community and you can earn some silvers. Whats wrong with that?
[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:It's a big negative change for me as the above example clearly illustrates. I was able to smelt steel, gain some craft xp, interact positively with the community and make some slivers to boot. Now my fully faceted interaction will be severly curtailed. I can either make xp or choose to interact positively to construction projects. You do the math on how enjoyable this is going to be.
So because you can't get XP for interacting positively with the community and making coin, this is a "big negative"? It's really sad that the community has fallen this far. When I started playing Horizons, Many people would often spend 10-20 hours a weekend muling for construction projects, gaining no XP at all, as well as making no money. Heck, there were people paying to port so that they could run construction resources out to the site. And we did it for the community.
Why is that sad? Is not that a sign of a functioning craft system, community interaction and economy?
So you're saying the system and community only works or is to be exalted when people contribute their efforts and get no direct reward in either craft xp or some coin.
Which game do you want to play
Horizons a rewarding crafting system where you can learn your craft, contribute to community construction projects and earn some silver as you ply your trade.
Horizons a rewarding crafting system where you can engage in your craft and make no advancement, contribute to community construction projects and earn no silver.
Yeah it's a pretty HUGE NEGATIVE in my view.
Touch typing, why not add breathing as a skill then ROFLMAO. I've never seen a programming job with a typing requirement LOL, because typing is not necessary at all to be a good programmer. Do you think programmers punch out code at 50, 80, or 100wpm? LOL well at least you brought a smile to my face. Priceless that one :)
[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:It's not wrong in the context the jewlers use smelting as a primary component of fashioning metals into precious artifacts.
See touch typing/computer programming above. Smelting in Horizons has nothing to do with working the metal.
Yes you do after you have taken the shortcut your self and levelled your Jewler of mithril. I know I know it's all for the future benefit of the game and it just don't make sense does it? *places hands on hips while pontificating*[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:You just want to force more grind onto players, based on your view of jewlers being gem setters and failing to acknowledge the siginificant smelting component.
No, actually, I don't. What I want is for reasonable reward for effort. The fact that you can level jeweler several times faster by T5 smelting than by making lower tiered jewelery is wrong, given the use of smelting in Horizons.
You must have ZERO imagination, if the graphic of ore to metal bars fully encompasses the smelting process for jewlers. Why can't you think a tiny bit laterally and have a small glimmer of an idea that smelting may actually include casting rings, braclets, necklaces and other items of jewlery?
[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:If you fashioned a copper, brass, silver or gold ring would you be smelting or gemsetting?
First, Horizons smelting is turning ore into bars, there's no working of the finished metal involved. Second, every piece of player craftable jewelry in Horizons takes gems.
No your choice wouldn't would it? But if I and other people chose to do the same thing thats when it gets wrong. Oh my god you are just absolutely galling in some of your commentary.belezar wrote:Why is it positive to increase the Grind? You power levelled youself why didn't you increase your grind if it's so positive to impose on the whole community, then why didn't you take that option as a free choice?
Already answered above, and my choice would have almost no bearing on the dilution of crafter achievement and reward for effort.
The proof is in the pudding. Why are people bootstrapping if it's so much fun and gives so much fulfillment to GRIND mindlessly. Are you even in touch with reality, you had free choice to do exactly what you advocate and you bypassed it yourself. Why? Why did you and why are others bypassing this exceptionally rewarding portion of the game? I just don't understand it?[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:Answer : Because it's not positive at all it's hell boring.
No, that's your assumption, not the answer. The answer is above.
I want the same option as you and many others had. I have the freedom of choice to take the rewarding approach that you avoided or I can take the less rewarding, les fulfilling approach that you took.[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote: How ironic Kengar, I thought this change was to fix crafting to make gameplay better. Clearly by your post your more concerned with powergaming and some percieved "right" way to play a craft class than real gameplay issues.
Nope, I'm not concerned with the "right" way to play a craft class. In fact, the reward for effort is purely a gameplay issue.
You seem to be under the mistaken assumption that the whole reason that some people think this is a good idea is because they think crafting classes should be played a certain way, or that blacksmiths/jewelers/etc shouldn't receive smelting XP.
I'm no more interested in forcing an unreasonable grind on anyone than you are about wanting a button to push to become lvl 100 in all crafts. It's all about reasonable reward for effort, and leveling several times faster doing nothing but smelting isn't reasonable.
Your proposed changes add nothing new, fresh or exciting to Horizons crafting they simply add more mind numbing drudgery as your levelling is slowed.
Well Im sure you mean well, but these changes have iced my account. I gave away my silver last night to guildies and will only be on to check in and get rid of my guild plot eventaully. Yes Im a n00b and have a guild plot because this game is losing people LOL and you think added grind is going to attract more players. THINK AGAIN, introduce things, add things look at the suggestions page there are some great ideas there.
Good luck I hope you feel much better than me because Im not the one thats going to hang around and feed your crafter ego, as I struggle up in levels where you chose to breeze through.
Fleshrend - Chaos Server
94 Cleric 12 Warrior 10 monk 8 mage
100 Blacksmith 100 Mason 91 tinkerer 100 Carpenter 100 Fitter 80 Scholar 73 spellcrafter 41 gatherer 49 Miner
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
Good luck Belezar,
Maybe some day you can design your own game. I definitely give it a shot. [Y]
Enjoy your travels.
NimKhazad
redo the loot tables and bring on the undead hordes!
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
No, the point of the matter is that I threw smelting XP into Jeweler because I had nothing better to do with it. I don't consider that character a jeweler, and probably never will.
I threw smelting XP into jeweler because I had nothing better to do with it. I don't consider that character a jeweler, and probably never will. Did you hear it that time?
In 25 years of programming, I've never met a competant programmer that didn't touch type. And oddly enough, the best of them were among the fastest typists, though I don't think they were the best because they could type, I think they could type because they did a lot of it.
Do I need to repeat myself again? The goal was to not loose the smelting XP, not to level Jeweler. The proof you mention pertains to other people, it doesn't reflect my motivation.
By the same logic, the devs shouldn't have fixed the blacksmith exploit that was the death blow to the Hz economy (in my opinion, others say it was already dead), because so many people were taking advantage of it.
That was probably premature. There have been other unpopular proposals that never made it to blight, this may fall into that category.
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
Great. I want the same option to bootstrap and then I can either consider him to be a jewler or not. It's my free choice.
Loud and clear. So why would you limit my free choice to do the same?
[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:I truly feel sorry that you feeling good has to do with you powergamed your craft class and now you are advocating a play style on players that you yourself to great pains to avoid. Again why if it is so enjoyable and gives that much fulfilment and reward did you choose to level of your own free will your jewler off mithril?
I threw smelting XP into jeweler because I had nothing better to do with it. I don't consider that character a jeweler, and probably never will. Did you hear it that time?
Just give me the same chance is all i ask
[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:Touch typing, why not add breathing as a skill then ROFLMAO. I've never seen a programming job with a typing requirement LOL, because typing is not necessary at all to be a good programmer. Do you think programmers punch out code at 50, 80, or 100wpm? LOL well at least you brought a smile to my face. Priceless that one [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]
In 25 years of programming, I've never met a competant programmer that didn't touch type. And oddly enough, the best of them were among the fastest typists, though I don't think they were the best because they could type, I think they could type because they did a lot of it.
[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:The proof is in the pudding. Why are people bootstrapping if it's so much fun and gives so much fulfillment to GRIND mindlessly. Are you even in touch with reality, you had free choice to do exactly what you advocate and you bypassed it yourself. Why? Why did you and why are others bypassing this exceptionally rewarding portion of the game? I just don't understand it?I've met talented programmers than can and can't touch type. Find me a job listing that seeks touch typing as a job requirement? None it's not important getting the job done is what counts. Cutting code is not a 50, 80 or 100wpm affair. I can touch type but I certainly don't need it to cut code.
Do I need to repeat myself again? The goal was to not loose the smelting XP, not to level Jeweler. The proof you mention pertains to other people, it doesn't reflect my motivation.
Can't comment on this as I don't know what the "exploit" was.By the same logic, the devs shouldn't have fixed the blacksmith exploit that was the death blow to the Hz economy (in my opinion, others say it was already dead), because so many people were taking advantage of it.
Possibly, Im not spending time only to have more time wasting GRIND forced upon me, especially when I consider all the other crafters sitting smugly at their high levels gained in a more *gasp* FUN way. Horizons is a mighty fine game if they started adding content over and above grind.[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]belezar wrote:Well Im sure you mean well, but these changes have iced my account.
That was probably premature. There have been other unpopular proposals that never made it to blight, this may fall into that category.
Recent changes have been great but the calls from this so called "focus group" increased crafting grind, take out Nadia, put a stop to multiclassing etc.. are the direction the game is headed forget it.
Im getting back onto EQ2 tonight, I left EQ2 for exactly the reasons the devs and "focus group" are closing down on me. I like the idea of multiclassing and being UBER if I choose to, I like the idea of massively multicrafting and when I read about the bootstrapping I was stoked and when I found out about Nadia in game even though expensive it was a nice way to buy a difficult to get comp.
If you make this game a clone of other games then I may as well play one that is not so laggy and has decent client server performance. This is along with invisible mobs and getting pushed through the world are fundamental issues that should get attention, if you really want to make horizons popular.
I guess when the game finally settles down, I'll take another look but the direction the changes are going "no thanks" there are better offerings that do the same thing out there.
Unfortunately "fixes" that are really going to improve Horizons in the long term are more than simply tinkering with cross craft xp gain or adjusting mithril smelting. Dare I say it a major revamp is needed, perhaps a Horizons II.
Im sorry I really get aggressive and I know it's bad, Im sorry I know you mean well. I just can't hang around if the boredom factor is going to be increased no matter how well meaning.
Fleshrend - Chaos Server
94 Cleric 12 Warrior 10 monk 8 mage
100 Blacksmith 100 Mason 91 tinkerer 100 Carpenter 100 Fitter 80 Scholar 73 spellcrafter 41 gatherer 49 Miner
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
Here is more the of the game direction and enjoyment Im aiming to avoid.
http://community.istaria.com/Web/Sho...x?PostID=87382
Yeah making mithril harder and more of a GRIND is really motivitaing me to keep my account open. Hello Tulga????
Fleshrend - Chaos Server
94 Cleric 12 Warrior 10 monk 8 mage
100 Blacksmith 100 Mason 91 tinkerer 100 Carpenter 100 Fitter 80 Scholar 73 spellcrafter 41 gatherer 49 Miner
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
easy to say this after one has already 5, 6, 8 or 10 crafting skills to 100This change is good for the game
Make it more of a pain to do something and FEWER people will do it. Games should be FUN first, realistic second
Food is food, just give us something to chew on that removes DP's
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
I have 2 crafting skills: mason and spellcrafting
One to help on build projects and one to help make players spells
Neither at 100
NimK
redo the loot tables and bring on the undead hordes!
Re: How could the crafting system be made better?
I think we can agree on that, at least.
And I'm sure you mean well too. We're both passionate about this, and I think I can honestly say I'm too passionate for my own good.
As has been said before on other issues, we'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.
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