Dragon Language in Public Discussion

[Tantalyr]

Geez I hate to ask, but can someone give me an example of dragon language?

Jayne

As far as I've been able to decipher it whilst lurking in Dragon Channel with my hatchling . . .

"Glit'sita"--a greeting

"Naka Duskel"--a biped

[Jayne]

Alright! Where does one learn that language? Is there a guide or book like there is for speaking Klingon? Because I wouldnt have a clue what you just said.....

Jayne

[imported_Ssilmath]

That's kind of the point, Jayne...If you are going to use it, you need to get ahold of KCE...it's pretty much their thing...The whole point of not publishing a guide on say, the forums, was so that not every average Joe would be able to learn it...

[Dranar]

Ah yes, the Dragon language...

The "Eilert Erdoten"...

A wonderful language that I enjoy to partake in often...

What I will offer to those wishing to know, I will be more than happy to translate in private for anyone communicating with me, or even listening in (If you really MUST know), though I swear I doubt you are missing much, the draconic language doesn't have like, naughty things to speak in code in public, I swear! (As much as I might like that on time... it even lacks curse words or proper insults! )

Though I will continue to use it, if someone I am directly interacting with has no clue or no want to deal with it, I will usually curb it to little or none and speak mostly common out of respect for them (Unless they say to keep it up, then I will and just translate privately) I don't mind translating (But if I am translating for ten people at once, I might have some issues, hehe. ) I am far from perfect with the language though, so if someone is speaking it incredibly fluently I might go "What did he just say" and tilt my head and then ask him privately. :)

I think it is a shame that people speaking different tongues should be downed so much, there is nothing wrong in it, and for me it is just a form of role-playing and to enhance the environment.

I enjoy it's use and find nothing wrong with it, in fact I encourage it. This is a role-playing server, and it's kind of nice to speak a language others might not understand... call me elitist, but so what, perhaps I am? ::grins::

It's role-playing on a role-playing server, simple as that.

As for the language, please visit here http://www.guildportal.com/Guild.asp...mp;TabID=86891 And click on the "Dragon Language" button on the upper right side of the page. There you can learn some of the language plus additional words added.

~Allon

Edit for Response added while I was posting:

I am more than happy to post links and how to find the dragon language, and have done so on repeated occasion, Ssilmath. I am fine with it being public knowledge... if it wasn't a whole lot of spam, I'd post it on these forums?

[Tantalyr]

Personally, I have no problem at all with dragonspeak in any channel, provided however, that the speaker is prepared to accept the puzzled looks and other "slings and arrows" that may be cast his/her way by those who are not conversant with the language in any channel, including Dragon. Though my hatchling doesn't speak the language, and frankly doesn't care to learn it, I certainly tolerate it simply because it is, in my view, at worst harmless roleplay and, more certainly, wonderfully immersive roleplay for those who know and engage in dragonspeak.

That said, I do know a few extremely well thought-of dragons (and deservedly so) who disdain dragonspeak, even to the point of treating those that speak it differently, and worse so, than those who eschew the language. But then, that is their roleplay style, and I tolerate that equally as well.

What I do not--and will never--tolerate is disguising sheer rudeness and meaness behind the mask of roleplaying. Hence the thrust of my other posts here.

[imported_Leannae]

What I do not--and will never--tolerate is disguising sheer rudeness and meaness behind the mask of roleplaying. Hence the thrust of my other posts here.

And what if they are roleplaying the character and happens to be mean and rude because it is part of that character? I'm not pointing a finger of guilt here, but using an example. Ssilmath can and has roleplayed rudeness at it's highest and well, gutting other beings isn't exactly nice. [;)]

I don't believe you've ever had the displeasure of meeting my fiend or dryad. If you had, you'd probably decide *I* was rude and mean but... it's roleplay. Variety breaks the boredom. If I have to play all my characters sweet, kind and nice because someone can't take the character traits in that particular character, I might as well stop roleplaying altogether then.

So, that said, it appears perhaps you aren't 100% tolerant of other people's style of roleplay. [:P]

[Tantalyr]

I don't believe you've ever had the displeasure of meeting my fiend or dryad. If you had, you'd probably decide *I* was rude and mean but... it's roleplay. Variety breaks the boredom. If I have to play all my characters sweet, kind and nice because someone can't take the character traits in that particular character, I might as well stop roleplaying altogether then.

So, that said, it appears perhaps you aren't 100% tolerant of other people's style of roleplay. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

You're right--I'm not tolerant at all of folks that are rude, mean or obnoxious no matter how they wish to disguise or justify it.

[imported_Ssilmath]

Now, is that you personally, or you the character? If it's you personally, you are kind of missing the whole point...

Ask my RP friends, ask my coworkers, ask the people that I make armor for, ask the newbies that I help out...I'm, for the most part, a nice guy...

Ssilmath, on the other hand, isn't very nice at all (I realize this is derailing the thread, my apologies Frith)...He's ill tempered, easily provoked, racist and somewhat foulmouthed...He hasan odd accent that I refuse to cease using and is hard for most to understand...and guess what? When playing him I'm about as RP as you can get...

So, because I play this rough around the edges guy, you have no tolerance for me? Send me a tell sometime, we'll have a chat, and you can find out who I am...Talk to me in Market, and you'll find out who Ssilmath is...And if you can't tolerate his mannerisms, then you are far more closeminded than you style yourself to be.

[Mordoth]

I've been on a short hiatus recently, but I'm back in the game. As the current guild leader of the Chet, I feel I should provide my input on the use of the Dragon language.

For the most part I am speaking to the use of the language in 'say'. Channels are a different matter entirely. If you are chatting in a public channel like the Dragon channel, it is only polite to speak there so that others can understand you. It's a public forum and speaking there it is assumed you are speaking to everyone in the channel, so you should speak so that everyone can understand you. (Ssilmath's silly accent aside of course, he just needs hankies.)

However in 'say' I treat it just like life. I go to the mall and there are people wandering around in the mall speaking Spanish, Japanese, Tagalog, French, etc. I don't goup to people and say "Hey, speak English so I can understand and join in the conversation." So if two people want to speak Dragon in 'say' it's their right, and can be part of their immersiveness in their RP. Just because it's 'public' does not mean that it must therefore be in common. It's up to the individuals involved to decide if they would switch to common at someone else's request.

In many games (although the only one I've dabbled in is SWG), there are language barriers based on character race and imposed by game mechanics. If your character doesn't know the racial language of the other character, you just don't understand them. I don't see howthe use of the Dragon language in 'say' is any different than the built-in game mechanics in other games.

I have run into people in Horizons speaking French in 'say', probably because that is their RL native language. I wasn't offended and didn't ask them to speak English because I couldn't understand them (although I actually could understand a fair amount).

The whole debate on the use of a made up language is one that rages through many games and incenses many to varying responses. It won't be solved as there is little chance of there being a consensus reached amongst the player base. Someone will always be unhappy. The best we can hope for is that players would use their own common sense and manners. I really don't see why anyone should or would get upset because someone is speaking a language they don't understand in game.


This stance in regard to the use of the Dragon Language is one that was adopted by the guild before I came along, re-inforced by my predecessor, and one that I agree with.

Mordoth

PS...again, remember my comments/opinions are addressed to speaking the Dragon Language in 'say' which by the TOS should be in character on Order. Thus, if someone is RP-ing a dragon that only speaks the old tongue, they should feel free to speak it.

[Mordoth]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Jayne wrote: Geez I hate to ask, but can someone give me an example of dragon language?

Jayne

As far as I've been able to decipher it whilst lurking in Dragon Channel with my hatchling . . .

"Glit'sita"--a greeting

"Naka Duskel"--a biped

Erm....well...Naka Duskael is actually an official Horizons term. You'll find it in the description of the Dragon Race and the strategy guide.

Glit'sita is ours, it's a formal greeting.

[imported_Leannae]

"Hey, speak English so I can understand and join in the conversation."

Oddly enough I'vehad people say that to me before. [:O]

But, if it's important enough to me, I make a point of learning the other person's language so we can converse as in Ssilmath speak. (well, ever since that German incident where theirEnglish guy was sick and I didn't speak German but that's another story for another time [:P])Being I deal with people worldwide,I have to learn some phrases or I'm dead in the water when I need to find out what this clause on that line means.

I've never had a problem with Dragon Speak or Ssilmath Speak or adding extra S's or R's. It's a roleplaying server plain and simple. But I've seen people go after Ssilmath and even some dragons over the chosen tongue and told them to speak English.But, then again it's no less a problem than some people assuming because you're on a NA server, you are in the good ol' USofA... And I've seen that as well...[:S]

[Jayne]

Interesting to say the least. I thought a dragon would just have a bunch of sssss's after every word. Oh and as far as role playing I don't count the market place as a place to do that. At least not on chaos, since most are complaining about the game and arguing about changes.

Jayne

[Swythe Quirksettle]

Here is my issue with this Dragon Speak (after calming down and thinking about it)...

The concept of languages in an MMO are not the same as a MUD, those who think differently should go play EQ, WoW, and SWG to see what I mean. Most MMO's that are developed and fully support the concept of RPing different racial languages do so through a filter that acts as a translator ingame. Hence that means the devs are promoting the use of the languages in every aspect of the game, including public channels.
I get nothing from Tugla supporting the use of Languages as a role-play device, and hence don't feel that it should become standard throughout the game until they decide its time to do so. And in doing so they most likely would take into consideration the fact that some players do not have the time to learn the language and would make a way to translate.
Also, The idea that a player run guild has created a racial language and has copyrighted it for themselves also bothers me. This means Tulga has to either pay royalties, or get someone to sign over rights witth the chance that they can't edit it. That is if they do decide to add a language. This copyright can also be used with intent to push the guild's name and get memebers to join. Not giving players the freedom to choose their own guilds, or lead their own. Remeber, copyright controls both ownership and distrobution.
The issue with this apearing in Dragon the past few weeks has also bothered me, Dragon was intended to be a help channel, and while I do RP my sillyness in there sometimes, its nothing serious (usually my RP is never serious). I don't want to see that channel become serious, because it would take away on the original intentions of the channel I fear, if a hatchling has a question about something and a serious RP is happening, I feel no one would help or respond promptly.
I am not saying that the KCE cannot speak this language in say, or in their channels, or tells or with their freinds. I am just saying that there needs to be some enforment on where and when it can be used. Before this gets out of hand.
Oh, and... *pelts Tokoz with a snowball*

Also, Naka-Duskel is not "Bi-Ped" it means "Unscaled One"

[Tokoz]

Hey Swythe,
I don't think KCE is the one that copyrighted it. It's older than Horizons. The copyright allows them to play with it, but wouldn't allow a company to use.
That's why I'm emailing you the language stuff on Sunday/Monday. I personally love the idea of a dragon language, but I'm discouraged by how limited it is in discussing things partaining to Istaria, and the fact that it isn't really as public accessable as it seems. Translating to draconic is ok, translating from draconic is a pain.
I think the best solution is to have the new language catch on and have a web dictionary set up and have people be able to requests new words as needed.

[Swythe Quirksettle]

One web dictionary coming up soon. You can email me part of the language and I can still setup a basic system to translate most of it.
Like I said I'd prefer a language as a role-play device used with the tools that will make it easier to be a said role-play device. And at this rate, I may just code it myself, shouldn't be too hard, least with the flow I got layed out already.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

I get nothing from Tugla supporting the use of Languages as a role-play device, and hence don't feel that it should become standard throughout the game until they decide its time to do so.

umm..who is making it a standard? We have never forced the use of this language on anyone, *including* our own members. Its merely there, anyone who wants to use it can. If you don't, as I already said - that's totally ok too. If there is a member of keir chet who ever seems to come off as saying you *must* use the language, then please speak to me and they will be taken care of. Because its just not true.

Or are you saying we can't use ANY roleplay device that isn't TUlga Approved? I don't think you're saying that - that would be silly. :)

Also, The idea that a player run guild has created a racial language and has copyrighted it for themselves also bothers me.

We did not create this racial lanaguge. We did not copyright it in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER! Someone else, with a class at a university or something, copyrighted it. We searched the web, found it, and decided to use it within our guild, an all dragon one, for the purposes of more immersive, and I guess for most of our members, more fun, Roleplay.

THAT"s IT!

Its not ours and we *never* took credit on it. If you go to our site tinyurl.com/zl3f and look at the Dictionary you will see its given credit elsewhere and the original site is listed (I('ve gone there myself). We have *never* maintained exclusivity on this dragon language - ever! If any one ever asks where it is, we tell them, if any guild were to use it you'd never hear word one of protest. Its NOT OURS. You're not goign to hear us go "HEy that's ours you can't use it"

The word Naka-Duskeal is AE's word. It was not "from" the language we are using, it was the only bit of "Dragon language" (thereby lore supported that dragons have one...) AE has ever really given out. It doesn't come from the source we use. But we do incorporate it. We've also made up "new words" that we include in our conversaetion that attempts to hold true to the "original source" Using their logic and translations. Such as "glit'sita" Is actually a word players put together using the words already provided, as there was no like "Formal greeting".

Literally translated from its parts it means, "I See you and acknolwedge you as breathren..."

This means Tulga has to either pay royalties, or get someone to sign over rights witth the chance that they can't edit it.

well it wouldn't be us. They'd have to go to the original source we merely put on a conveinent place for us to use as a guild. That would be the same as if a game decided to use Tolkein's Elven language as their own. Either one I doubt would happen.

This copyright can also be used with intent to push the guild's name and get memebers to join. Not giving players the freedom to choose their own guilds, or lead their own. Remeber, copyright controls both ownership and distrobution.

Um, I think you are massively misunderstanding this language and its obvious perhaps you havent' even approached an officer to ask them how this works. Please read the above. THis obviously isn't the case, can't ever even BE the case.

Have you ever heard a person use the language outside keir chet and then go "Oh I have to give Credit to Keir Chet" (well hell I hope not!) Do you EVER ONCE see anyone using it in dragon chat and see a Keir Chet member go "Hey give us credit that's ours"

We've never stopped a single other dragon from using it, and heck we dont' even stop bipeds from using it - but IC wise you might get some angry dragons yelling at you ;).

The issue with this apearing in Dragon the past few weeks has also bothered me, Dragon was intended to be a help channel, and while I do RP my sillyness in there sometimes, its nothing serious (usually my RP is never serious). I don't want to see that channel become serious, because it would take away on the original intentions of the channel I fear, if a hatchling has a question about something and a serious RP is happening, I feel no one would help or respond promptly.

I agree with you there. You'll never once see me use it in dragon chat. I don't really RP in dragon chat, and I don't want that ot become an RP only channel. Course according to Zideon - it is already suppose to be *frowns*

I am not saying that the KCE cannot speak this language in say, or in their channels, or tells or with their freinds. I am just saying that there needs to be some enforment on where and when it can be used. Before this gets out of hand.
Oh, and... *pelts Tokoz with a snowball*

What enforcement? Did you read my first post? We can't control the behavior of the shard, of people outside our guild. We're not going to discourage the use of the language by ANYONE who wants to use it.

WE DON"T HAVE THAT RIGHT!! And I'd assert - neither do you.

If pepole want to use it, then they have a right to use whatever they want to. You also have a right to request that they stop, and a right to leave a situation if someone refuses to stop.

Just like with any other behavior.

I thinik you'll find, if you really pay attention to its use - that other than "glit'sita" I rarely, if *ever* see more than that in dragon chat.

And I also know for a fact that it has been used more extensively by a few in dragon chat that are not even members of Keir Chet. That is not our responsiblity, nor our obligation to stop them for you. You don't like it - you say something. We have no right to do so.

Its just amazing to me you have all this information that is so false, that you were using to base your opinion on. When really just a brief conversation with say, me :), would have cleared up most of that.

And again - this discussion was to ask for suggestions by others on how they want to handle when they are around and the language in spoken in front of them and they wish to be a part of the conversation...

You did not offer a suggestion as to how you think this "enforcement" should work?

Any ideas - other than what I stated in my first post. What else can any of us do but ever just ask....??

[imported_Frith-Rae]

but I'm discouraged by how limited it is in discussing things partaining to Istaria, and the fact that it isn't really as public accessable as it seems. Translating to draconic is ok, translating from draconic is a pain.
I think the best solution is to have the new language catch on and have a web dictionary set up and have people be able to requests new words as needed.

Um, how is it not as public acessable? I'm confused I guess...you just go tot he site, click on the language and bam there it is.

It already is a web dictionary, though woefully incomplete - but that's the entire of allyou'll have to work with :). Its all there.

Keir Chet has added a few words we've used the "Ruleset" provided to create since our creation, but its a lengthy discussion process for each word and what everyone wants to "accept" as the new "draconic version".

But if you want to put it up on another site, hey go right ahead - if you want to add a forum to discuss the lagnauge as Keir Chet does in our member forums - hey go right ahead!! The more the merrier I say! :) Again - its not ours, we have no claim nor rights to it. Its just something we found on the web and started using as a guild. Others liked it, and its gone on from there.

[imported_Leannae]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Tokoz wrote:
I think the best solution is to have the new language catch on ....

I'm confused I guess...

You and me both... I thought it had already caught on.

Did I miss a memo? [:$]

[Swythe Quirksettle]

Frith, stay calm, don't get all worked. I'm trying to be the devil's advocate on this case and don't want to blow up myself, also trying to make a solid argument ageinst something I like to see ingame one day. :)
The KCE has the right to use this language as they see fit, and people have the right to role-play as they see fit, but I also have the right to bring to light issues that may or may not have been discussed and state my mind just as reasoning as everyone else does. And hence you have the right to disprove me if my reasoning is wrong.

So I was wrong in some of my info *shrugs* let me enforce where I believe I am right.

Frith-Rea Wrote:
Or are you saying we can't use ANY roleplay device that isn't Tulga Approved? I don't think you're saying that - that would be silly. [img]emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

I am saying about that, and while it sounds silly, I have a valid point to make.
Horizons is, and always will be, a video game, it is of the MMORPG kind, and like all of its kind coming and before it, it will provide the player with the major role-playing devices. The concept of racial languages is a major role play device because it affects the scripting of NPCs and some mobs. In Horizons this concept exsists, it exsists through two things. 1.) Naka-Duskel 2.) The Music in Dralk.
Now that means the Devs have considered racial languages in some way as a major role-play device (and once again, all major role-play devices in an MMO are provided by the game). This consideration has made its way into the NPC scripting of the game, and therefore I feel that it should be left up to the devs to have a racial language system. If a player creacted language became the recognized a certain racial language in Horizons, then it would cause a mild conflict ingame if and when the devs add their own racial languages.

As far as I know, the only suggestion I have about this is to let it go wild in Dragon with the mixed RP, and start a new help channel, "Dragon-Help" (or something like that) to allow players to get direct help from dragons. This will eliminate my major concern.
I also think that botted channels should be tagged in the name if they are RP or not, something like a (Role-Play),(OOC). The KCE got that right with their two channels I think.

As for clearing my questions and concerns about it up with you, when I see you ingame next I'll see to it. I seem to agree with you on most parts. I just need to get my info up to date.

Also, as for me coding my dictionary/translator for Tokoz's language, I just want to code something like that because it sounds like a lot of fun, and would be good for www.lv2600.com's project pages. Plus the system itself will be so generic that it can be used with almost any lanague.

[imported_asteral]

Telling somone that their characters method of communication is wrong and shouldn't be used is no different than telling them how they should RP. I have a Dragon alt who speaks it and one who does not. Telling someone they cannot use a ficticious language to enhance their Roleplay style is stupid as well as rude. If i so choose to make my dragon speak the language that is my choice and my right. It in no way violates any of the roleplay guidelines or rules. So i don't see why this is an issue at all.

If you do not want to hear people speak it there is the /ignore command, OR you can be adult and deal with it. It is...rather unbelievable that you expect all races to speak the same language or have the same dialect. If someone so chooses to add a slur or a stutter to their chars speech pattern that is their business. It is the way they have chosen to play that character and you should deal with it.

And as far as dragon speech goes on the Dragon line, i personally do not use it there other thant he occasional "Glit'sita" ect. But if someone so chooses to use it there that is their business. Zideon has stated (To manys dismay) THat the dragon line is supposed to be an In character line so those using the dragon line are simply FOLLOWING the rules. If their character speaks the ancient tongue then there is no reason not to use it on the dragon line. Even if YOU can't understand it. Its a simple as saving the document on the Keir Chet site and referencing it if you don't understand. Not a big deal. OR you can ignore them if it bothers you that much.

Lastly, I would much love to have racial tongues in this game. It was that way with the last game i played. You had to study for LONG Periods of time to learn another language. I wish they would do that here. But untill that time no one should have the right to critisize anyone who does choose to use it. Simply because you do not like it nor understand it gives you no right to try and ruin it for others.

And should we limit ooc speech to just ENGLISH simply because some people do not understand German or french or Spanish? Its the same principal. Stand back and look at what you are saying and compare it to how the real world works. And some will say its a fantasy realm, well that right there justifies my arguement completely.