Dragon Language in Public Discussion

[Tokoz]

Just because I know that sometimes I get a little ahead of myself and come across as unclear. Let me lay things out as they happened.

I downloaded the KCE dragon language and looked at it. First I noticed that copyright for educational purposes only. Having worked as an editor for a semi-pro rag in college, I knew exactly what this meant: KCE could use the language and (at the time) AE could not.

I also noticed that the language was complex, and that reading the intial part of the document was essestial to use it properly, since it has no real basis in English grammar. This meant that it would be hard to learn correctly.

I learned quickly that the translation only went one way, so learning how to say something was easy, learning what someone else meant was hard. I tested this out on Saphire by translating out something really silly. I don't remember exactly, but it was something like "I soar through the brown mud and nosedive into rocks." She said that she was glad I was learning the language so well...

My original major in college was English, and I've made a point of studying different grammatics and phoentics, so I felt that I could create a language, make it public domain, so that anyone in any fantasy game could use it, and have a way to allow people to request new words for the language, thus giving it a much more robust life of its own.

I began the process of making this language in March of this year, just prior to my complete "collapse" from normal society due to PTSD. At the time of my collapse, I had a language with about 200 words, not as many as the language that KCE uses, but the words were more relevent to the game: armor, scales, Tazoon, crafting, lapis luzuli, gem cutting, etc...

It also had the advantage of being consistant in use of tense: only the subject carries tense and it is expressed the same way for each type of tense. Other than that, it was based on English, which would make the language easier for most players to learn.

After my initial treatment, I added a few more words, but found that KCE's language was very deeply rooted, and so abandoned the project.

When issues came up in the community regarding this language, which I think is rather cool personally, it seemed to me that the best compromise might be to finish developing the language I started andwork on makinga web-based searchable dictionary to translate it both ways. This way no copyright laws were being infringed, you had a workable and living language for use in the game, and everyone would have access to being able to translate it.
(Although I'd like to see a biped pronounce the dragon word, "gr.")

The language also takes into account the game's social structure for dragons. It included honorifics for each age catagory, ceremonial greetings that only make sense in Istaria, and basic differences in how Lunus use the language versus Helian.

I'll post Tokoz's basic guide to using the language for review once I get home to the disk where it's stored. People will be free to look it over and see if they would rather stick with what they know (I can hardly blame them given how much time some have devoted to it.) or would like to give the new language a try.

Hope that clarifies everything for you. :)

[Swythe Quirksettle]

I am in full swing of supporting a public domain language to settle this despute, that way if TG wants to use it, they may. It also allows for people who wish to expand the language to do so.
And will avoid the legal issue I also see presented (based off Tokoz's words).

Ok, a bit of why I am a stickler for this first.

I work in a Copy Center on weekends, I am told flat out to respect the copyright owners. Do you know how many people DO NOT understand the law? Do you know how easy it is to bust someone for infringment? Pick of the phone and call your lawyer and ask. I can say not many are aware of the infringments they are commiting (or their graphic designers are commiting) and don't understand the extent of the law. I also know of several print chains in my area shut down for infringment. This is not a simple matter when we think about it.

Do you know the fine for Copyright infringement?
Up to $250,000 per infrongment is it?
Go here to understand.
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#wci
And keep in mind, this law applies to YOUR creations too.

Now there is a point provided within the copyright law that states a system (a language is a system of communication) that can be fought ageinst. However, I would rather see NO legal risks involved in any support from TG IF it were to come.

If the KCE or others knowing the language use the quest editor and scripts the language into the games NPCs, thats imediately breaking the copyright of the language, because the script to the quests become the proporty of TG and henceforth break the copyright of the language by allowing them to incorperate it into their product and make money from the language's effectof increased emmersion. Understand where I am going? This leaves them open to lawsuit, and something like that could destroy this game, and company designing it.

Making these issues known BEFORE they happen, can save a lot of pain.
I would hate to see anyone ruined for ignorance to the laws of artist rights.

I have talked with a few people who studied liguistics on the side today, I'm postive that any creater of a language would want to maintain some credit for the hard work. A functional, fully concieved, original language can take YEARS to make. There is much that even I need to take into consideration if I were to safely design the software to translate Tokoz's language.

Also, closing this, I am STILL not forcing upon the KCE what language they will speak. I am just making sure ALL issues regarding the lore of this language (they claim it to be part of Istarian Lore, when in fact it cannot be), are made public.

[Tokoz]

Ok, that brings up some possible issues I hadn't thought through, although I'm pretty sure that TG would edit out references to the language.

Like I said though before, the copyright is very loosely written. We could even post a dictionary of KCE's language to a website to translate back and forth and it would not be an infridgement as long as we don't make money off it.

I plan on taking out a public domain copyright on the language "Kraig Praefer." This means that it can be used for any public purpose, including commercially, but prevents others from copy-righting it.

Again, this is an experiment. I hardly can blame those that have devoted huge amounts of time to learning the KCE version of Ancient Dragon, for not adopting it and having it fall on it's face. :p

[imported_Frith-Rae]

ok Im' really confused...

I'm not sure anyone was suggesting we were going to use it as part of Quest Editor or NPC Tulga official quests...I've never seen a single person mention that usage, and I'd agree with you there Sywthe - that would be an incorrect usage.

The reason "We" (KCE) had it fit into Istaria "lore" was so that we'd have some basic RP reason as to 1-why this language was not wide spread 2-why so many would never have heard of it. Its a simple backwards thing you do you know when you want to use somthing but want to have a logical reason for it in the "current RP" stance. Sort of a covering of the bases - for any dragon who did not know it, nver heard of it, or never wanted to. *Shrugs*

AE or TULGA or whomever never claims it as part of their "lore" that's us, using present lore understanding to explain the precence of this dragon language. Same thing if I decided to make Frith psychic (SP?) and tried to figure out some way lore wise it would fit.

I dont know why all this stink of copyright infringement is coming up - this has never in almost two years now, been an issue. Buncha' -people use it to roleplay and uhh that's it. We've never advocated nor even approached anything close to asking it to be "official" with any business in any way, shape, or form. If someone outside KCE is suggesting that - well then obviously they don't get what' s wrong with that.

Given the small population of Order shard members who read the forums, I am not aware that anyoen reading this was pushing for that :).

Now..I'm confused.

How is Tokoz self created language any different/better/more logical/more accpetable for use than the one KCE already uses and people are already familiar with?

I guess I'm not sure how One would be say ok to use in Dragon chat and Swythe you wouldnt' have any issue with it - but yet the KCE version of language isn't?

Neither are any more or less accessible to anyone wanting to learn them, both are an outside foreign language being inserted into the game for RP reasons, neither are Tulga property nor used by NPCs or advocated to be.

I guess that's where now I'm confused. Because it seems to me you're taking what we've already been doing, Tokoz coming up with the same exact thing - and now saying "oh ok since I've done this it makes it more ok?"

ar? (questioning sound of confusion)

Seems to me Swythe that you're issue is mostly with copyright laws, and that Tulga can't ever "buy the rights" to this language to put it as a part of the game. And secondary to that, we'd like to not see it take over dragon chat or new player channel (which I totally agree with...).

Tulga has never mentioned wanting to even do any of this, and me personally I'd rather see them spend time doing other things than making up in game mechanics for alternate languages *shrugs*. We already can use whatever lanauge we want - what's worng with this.

And I"d just like to state I know of at least two other dragons who use a totally different language from common or "Ancient Draconic" Of KCE. *shrugs*

Just like Ssil ;), and dwarves who speak in accents to the point I can barely understand - I just simply ask them to speak clearer - or in common. It isn't really that hard.

But now I'm just confused as to how Tokoz's language is a solution to the orignal problem. Or is that just a solution if TUlga wanted to use it officially?

[Jayne]

You all are obviously into RP more then I have ever been exposed to. So how does a Fiend speak?

Jayne

[Tokoz]

You all are obviously into RP more then I have ever been exposed to. So how does a Fiend speak?

They speak human, just a little more pointedly, with an occassional horny reference.

[Jayne]

Oh no wonder I'm a Fiend :)

Jayne

[imported_Leannae]

I dont know why all this stink of copyright infringement is coming up

If we're going to start policing (word used lightly) infringement, we could pick apart the way some play dwarves, elves, and gnomes not to mention the few "D&D" dragon's I've encountered who play them straight out of a novel <sighs>

Personally, I don't see a problem with the KCE language or use of it. <shrugs> I've been here since launch, ran into it first right after merge (1 year now)

As far as the new Tokoz's language being a solution to the problem. There has to be a problem first doesn't there? Being a member of the community of Order I don't see the KCE language as a problem.

Maybe I'm confused too.

Oh and Jayne, the fiends I've encountered usually are snobby, arrogant and very full of themselves feeling they are the most superior race there is.

<wanders off scratching her head> Not sure where the horny reference came into it other than they have horns... then again, so do Satyr's. <shrugs>

[Jayne]

Hummm, snobby is not me. My fiend is like me in RL. I am nice and giving, but screw me once and I'll never forget :)

Arrogant......hows confident.

Jayne

[Tokoz]

Like I said in my first post, I don't have a problem with KCE's use of the dragon language. I believe that the incident that sparked all this came from someone who entered the Dragon chat and used it as an RP way to belittle others and that it wasn't appreciated. That person obviously had not read Mordoth's post regarding appropriate use of the language by guildie's.

Even in the light of that incident, I don't have a problem with KCE's language. There is no copyright infringement happening that I've seen and there are no plans by anyone to infringe on any copyrights. The copyright issue ONLY comes into play if TG accidently let a quest from a player through on their quest editor that used that language--something that I don't think is likely to happen, but could possibly.

The Kraig Praefer language is public domain, can have words easily added to it, and is adapted for Istaria specifically. In addition, there will be posted a translating dictionary that will allow people to translate both ways in the language. If KCE does not want to use it, I have no problem with that. I just wanted to create a way that would make it possible to have a living language in game, that would not leave anyone feeling left out.

[Dranar]

You know, someone belittling others in the Eilert Erdoten (Dragon language) would be rather interesting, since it doesn't have very many negatives, hehe...

And, it should be added that a lot of people speak it who are not in the guild! So don't immediately assume that someone didn't read Mordoth's post to their "Guildies" since a good chance someone else was speaking it.

If anything I see more non-KCE speaking it than KCE actually!

And when I use it, I am not belittling, and if someone thinks that, they need their head adjusted. ;)

Though the new language really is just that, a new language, for people to learn... will I try to learn it? Probably so, I like that, and it is a lot simpler than the one KCE has used. I can actually do Tenses without having to spend a minute trying to figure out where to stick the tense word.... Hehe.

This language though will be just as accessible unless it is actually added INTO the game somehow, otherwise I don't see it being any more accessible really?

~Allon

[Tokoz]

There will be a dictionary database online, where you can type either the Draconic and get the English translation, or visa versa. That will make it more accessable. I did talk to one of the devs (I forget which, trying to learn real names and game names... was it Mark?) about having it added once the database is up to full potential. It's possible, but it's sure not one of their top priorities or even on the Pony list... :p

[imported_Leannae]

Hmmm... OT a second but this I have to say...
(not a flame, just an observation)

In an earlier post you said you didn't want it to appear as if there is any favoritism going on, but it does appear that way to a point with themeetings onOrder, the new language that you're offeringand nowname-dropping dev's by real name.

I mean, I could do that too, butI would be bragging nes pas?

Back to Topic...

I will agree with Allon on 2 points. I've never seen/heard any form of belittlement from any who use the language, and more non-KCE use it in public channels than KCE.

At any rate, good luck with it.

[Tokoz]

Hmmm... OT a second but this I have to say...
(not a flame, just an observation)

In an earlier post you said you didn't want it to appear as if there is any favoritism going on, but it does appear that way to a point with themeetings onOrder, the new language that you're offeringand nowname-dropping dev's by real name.

I mean, I could do that too, butI would be bragging nes pas?

I find that most community problems are a form of misunderstanding my position.
1) I lead no one. I work a purely administrative job. I find out what people are trying to do and find better ways for them to work together to accomplish it. All is voluntary. You can not lead free people.
2) I use the same methods to talk to TG that anyone else uses.
3) My visit to TG was posted in General by my wife, and DB made the offer for anyone to come and meet them (and learn their names.) There were others that had visited before me, and he hopes there will be others to visit afterwards, it had nothing to do with my position in the community.
4. Anyone is welcome to use IRC to get additional information or bounce ideas off of developers. You will find many posts on these boards that reference that, most not from me.

I mentioned specifically that it was possible to add it to the game, but was not planned. This means simply put: if people choose to use it, it might be able to appear in the game. The copyright is public domain, so if TG did decide to do that, it's free for them. They just have to live with anyone being able to use it.

What sort of favortism or whatever you want to call it could possibly make it worth the while for all the snide remarks people have made about me? Or for not being able to play since the first meeting because of all the community issues I sit and listen to rather than use /ignore? I thank heaven several times a day that the community only voted for me to do this job until the end of summer. If you think you could do it better, then do it, but if not: be willing to take a back seat to those that are willing to put their words into actions.

There's not a person on the server who couldn't do everything that I've done. I'm a beat down disabled vet, hardly up to the task of doing anything for anyone, but somehow I find hope in trying my best to help other people. Everyone has access to these boards, where I first called the meeting. Everyone has access to the channels that I use to publicize the meetings. Anyone can create a channel and talk to people and propose ideas and ask for people's opinions and put up with all the crap I've had to since taking on this job. But guess what? You didn't. You can't have the pony if you're not going to raise the pony.

The teams I helped organize figuratively have given this shard several hundred pizzas and all I hear is a bunch of people whining because I didn't order one with anchoivies and jalapenos...

If there was a public domain language out there, I'd have offered it, but there isn't. So this is the next best thing.

[imported_Leannae]

If you think you could do it better, then do it...

I have been there. We had community meetings on Spirit pre-merge. Although, one person organized it, he did not sit "chair" to those meetings. Instead it rotated amoung all members of the community so there was no one leader,instead it wasa feeling of equality with all members. Each meeting had a different moderator, the only constant was the format used in holding those meetings.

I could easily post ideas I've presented to the dev's that have come to fruition in game. I could also as easily drop names of important people I know in and out of game however, I'm not here for glory or fame within a virtual world.

I've had the pony and raised it to a thoroughbred.However, I shared in raising it with my friends/peers/equals.

But, I'm drawn off topic again and I apologize to Frith. As I said before, good luck with your language.

[imported_Frith-Rae]

damnit..I didn't get no freakin [pi][pi][pi]!!

( OK yea honestly I'm just waiting on Sywthe to answer me :) as he was the one bringing up the issues)

(and yea actually its really hard to say anything bad in the KCE "ancient draconic" its one of the...drawbacks..to using it. We've actually had discussions before about trying to come upw ith insults and bad sayings...its a very PC language..heh)

(have as many languages as you want, but I agree with you Leanna that none of them seem better or more appropriate or more 'acceptable' than any other. So depending on what the original issue was, wouldn't solve anything other than one more language to confuse people with ;))

[Swythe Quirksettle]

OK, translator update, YES, the dictionary is coming. I've laid down the groundwork and basic object code today.
Search and replace... search and replace.
Somewhat detachable front end will be designed too.

[imported_peladon]

Frith Rae, Elder drakonel and Wisdom. Many have spoken here and much has been spoken by the many. And manyhave misunderstood each other, and many have presumed as to each onther's intent and some have taken offense and some have banded in company and some have taken a lonely wind to the stance they would offer.

Thus be the nature of language. <G>.

The speaking of the Keir Chet doth remind me of a tongue that was made when I was.... many walkings younger than the Fool ye find today. We did craft this thing that the bipeds be confused. So well it succeeded that the very draku came confused also! As to the tongue be that of the First, why, it pleases me that ye have spoken with Drulkar to know this! Of course, it doth pose issue for those that seek Ancient scales that speak it not... Or mayhap it doth not. Sure I be that Drulkar will speak both slow and loud, for that be the most common form many use in translation to those that speak other than they.

A racial tongue? Pfah! If there be three Helian or yet three Lunus that may agree that flame be hot and the winds be sweet, then never have I met them! And that be no speaking of the difference in Lunus and Helian tongue. There be many words and phrases the Helian speak that can not be phrased in the speaking of Dralk, for no Lunus would ever seek to have words for such, and the verse of vice. Why, when I was first a hatchling, there was depe mountain draku and low mountain draku and the draku of the snows, and but a one could understand the other without much scratching of brow ridges was a small wonder. And of my own.... Clan... why, they spoke as none other. And thus many say even now that Sephiranoth speaks but poor common. Indeed I am a poor draku.

Once we had many lands, and many bowed before us. And we spoke to them all one wise in formal times. But that was a thing of speaking to those that were not of the speaker's ilk. Twixt like and like, much other was spoken. The draku of Ice, when last I knew, had some tens of tens of words for snow alone, that they might know the snow safe to land on, the snow that hid prey, the snow that would seem solid but hide water... of little use to the draku in fire, who knew no snow but could tell thee the nature of rock in just so many manners.

I am a Fool and my words are but the whipser of a forgotten wind. But then, is that not the nature of speaking, that the words be lost and the meaning seen in some other wise than it was once offered? Speak thy words, Keir Chet. Speak and speak and speak. For it seems the words hath more import than the meaning these tides....

[ASasha]

[:|][:|][:|][:|][:|][:|]

I like pie.....::nods head vigorously:::

Yesh...I like pie....

::is severly traumatized by all this reading...::::

....who even suggested that the language be incorporated into Quest NPC"s or even used by Tulga at all?? I sure as hell hope that was no one other then..some rambling of incoherentness and thus said rambler imagined it was said. I have been here since launch, been with chet for a couple of years now. I have been on and off for awhile....but I will say this...

1. It's just a language we use but never enforce.
2. It's NOT....I repeat..NOT our language. Never was...never will be. We did NOT..I repeat ilikepie NOT ...create this pumpkinpieisthebest language.
3cherryisntbadeither If someone wants to use it..and yes abuse it...we can NOT...I repeat bananacreamisawesome.....NOT stop them from doing so other then that spiffy wowtheresaspiderbehindyou ignore button.
4. In the end peeps coconutcreampieisgod didyousquashthespiderbehindyou?

Yikes...it's a biggun!

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[imported_Denrath]

*Reads the above once*
*Reads it again*
*Marvels at the fact he can read it in the first place and tries to figure out why he has a sudden urge for pie...*