A Warning

[Crazyfingers]

The big variable here, is what do you define as better? Changes for the better.

Well for grinders, its 20 more levels to grind. raise the cap to 120. Raise the cap to 140. race for the cap!

For the other folks, better ismore fun,more challenging and exciting.

Unfortunately most, not all, but most playing Horizons are grinders. They are immune to it, accept it and always equate it with some sort of achievement.

The developers must look past these folks. They will adjust. But non-grinders will not adjust to more grind. They hate the boredom of it and leave.

So for me changing the game for the better is: more interactive, fun, challenging and exciting. I think it can be achieved without interfering with the folks that choose to grind.

When I look through posts that are being debated, you can see the grind mentality in the tone of certain posts. Of course they have the right to play Horizons in ******** way they want! but I dont think changes should be made to cater them.

NimK

[kengar]

Death-Knell, ask the dozens of bipeds that have maxed out their alt dragons hoards in a month or two. Hoard drops well, and my character isn't exactly uber, but I like it.

I don't think anyone is saying that you can't max a dragon alt's hoard fairly easily. How many of those did it with the dragon, rather than the main, however?

Dragons are good characters at one on one combat, but that just isn't an efficient way to work on hoard. I can get more hoard in an hour on my biped than I get in 5 on my dragon. It's not because the dragon is weak, either, it's because the dragon can't take on entire spawns of T4/T5 mobs nonstop. T4 mobs mean downtime, and T5 mobs are taken in small groups.

This is probably because the biped AoEs recycle in half the time as most biped AoE attack spells, so bipeds spend less time casting lower tier AoE spells. The fact that dragons only have instant heal on a 5 minute timer, all other heals are HoTs, and except for the one HoT with a 5 minute timer, are both short duration and unimpressive in the amount healed is probably a factor as well.

[Death-knell]

Death-Knell, ask the dozens of bipeds that have maxed out their alt dragons hoards in a month or two. Hoard drops well, and my character isn't exactly uber, but I like it.

You can whine all you want, but just remember, your whines have brought the game to the state its in... be proud, if you wish.

You must be joking, "ohhh...I get too much hoard" So you whine you get too much and thats OK. And I'm quite happy with the progress the devs have made since 12/09/03

Not to mention I have quite a few biped allies who feed me hoad and it no where near what you claim

[belezar]

Sadly, the engine they are using will always keep the sub's down.
I really hate the engine, but I love the game wich is why I stick around.
Many new players won't learn how great this game is because they give up on the engine.
I say stop ALL content work and fix/change the engine and then we will start seeing new sub's coming in some numbers.

Completely agree Nords. Sadly the other day I was porting around a bit and really slowing down, got bumped from the game 3 times, my friend on dialup has a hell of a time.

Times like that other games flash through my mind [:(] like gasp going back to EQ or EQ2 and yet I want to build on my plot and get some craft and adventure to the higher levels. Plodding along for the time being.

Horizons won't get a significant increase in membership until client, server performance and associated issues of mob lag, invisible mobs get fixed. Thats my humble opinion these are fundamental issues, you can balance and pretty the game up all you want, if the base infrastructure won't support decent game play I don't see a HUGE demographic of gamers willing to put up with such poor client server performance.[st]

[Seranthor]

you can putmakeup and a dress on a pig in the slop pit and say 'isn't that just beautiful' but at the end of the day its still a pig no matter how you dress it up.

Fix the flaws, fix the exploits, fix the bugs, stop breaking stuff that doesn't need broken. Then and ONLY then will dressing up the game attract more players than you are losing.

This might help also... you dont throw away customers that you DO have to see if you can MAYBE get more.

[Crazyfingers]

about dressed up pigs. Depends on how many beers Ive had.

On your 2nd point. Its way to late for that. A series of drastic steps are needed.

On your3rd point. Customers are not always right. Sometimes you gotta take risks. Horizons needs something BIG!

Something that says-this is the direction Horizons is taking and if you dont like it, get the heck out of the way. We will not tweak or cater to threats anymore.

Cmon Seranthor! you must admit most of the patches and updates are exactly what you are describing. Little fixes of flaws, tweaks to curb exploits, attempts to fix bugs etc etc. It doesnt work! Horizons needs a new Image Badly. Big bold changes, what do they have to lose? A few thousand subscribers? What do they have to gain? Ten thousand new subscribers and a new image.

Help me out here! Im trying to be positive!

NimKhazad

[Seranthor]

BIG to me would mean to me a client rewrite to support all these new subscribers they want, it would mean solving the issues with the invisible mobs, it would mean collision detection, it would mean giving the masses a REASON to come. Repeatedly breaking things that work isn't the answer. Cure what caused the repeated exoduses, dont cause another one, I dont think TG can afford another one, do you?

But breaking mith, breaking crafting, go right ahead if your hell bent on it, no skin off my nose

1900 comes very soon.

[R`aven_Sky`Dash]

i would sooner see line of sight before collision detection....u want to fix exploits? collision detection would bring in a whole new era of them. the terrain alone doesnt support collision detection very well imo. how much collision detection are u ppl askin for? mobs > player? player > environment? player > player? all of the above?

player > player....yes havin to run around the tail of a dragon in the group to get to a mob, or being "pushed" aside when they rear up to cast by their wings certainly sounds like fun.

mob > player...would make AE'nsolo or groupedvery interesting wouldnt u say? oops pulled too many stuck in the middle cant get away. DP, or at best ******** had to recall...again.

player > terrain...gettin stuck in the trees runnin through the swamp with or without agro would be just dandy i agree.

think about the battles u fight with or without a group and where u like to pull from for a moment...its cries exploit and severe nusiance with collision detection.

[Kulamata]

If all the noise about the mith change started a rabbit from the brush, great!

It's true that the remaining players tend to tolerate grind well; but that'sthe result of a sad process of elimination. I don't think many players like grind, although some seem to like it for other players; I think theyendure it, and have difficulty imagining an alternative. And of course there is nothing about grindthat attracts the players we need. And it sure has been shown that it can repel players.

If the massive change that seems to be evolving is executed well, it would be the sort of thing I've been asking for since beta. Less repetition, less tedium, less use of repetition as a measure of accomplishment. And it should therefore be more fun. The devil will be in the details, but it sounds as if it offers real possibilities.

And it can be sold! Now, with less grind, more imagination, improved economy, etc. The deepest crafting MMO that ever was, now evolved, using what we learned (the hard way [:)]) to be more fun, more variety, and with more meaningful career paths.

(I don't see that adding tier VI would be anything but good. It is time for more content at the top for both adventurers and crafters. I'm not concerned about players "blasting to the top" and leaving, because those so inclined have already done that and left.)

Players like me, have not been against change, per se. Just change that seemed to alternately lurch and creep toward an ever slower game, with increased tedium, and a decreased population.Changes too often executed badly the first try or three. But we certainly applauded the dragonupgrades with the same fervor that we had when we argued against hoard leakage.

Taken by itself, I don't think the mithril change so far is a step in the right direction (do tell!) and the reduction in xp has obviously set off alarm bells. And a goodexplanation as to how it furthers the business goals of the game has not been forthcoming. Nor can I see that it moves in the direction of the major craft overhaul that's been mentioned. A bit of a hint, orbetter, a candid discussion as to how this change leads into what appears to be an appealing revamp of crafting would be welcome indeed.

And if thisoverhaul, as outlined, goes forward as I hope it does,it will succeed only ifthe developersresist the temptation to slow the game down behind the scrim of the changes.

[Crazyfingers]

Hey Kulamata, about the reasoning behind mithril. I'm not sure either but my only guess is that IF the miner class becomes the main class for prospecting ore. Maybe mixing up the ingredients involved in the process of leveling miner was meant to spice it up alittle.

Personally I think their initial reasoning was to slow down the crafting schools related to metal heh. But reasons change...

NimK

[Seranthor]

Nim isn't Prospecting broken?

[Crazyfingers]

Think positive! Seranthor work with me here!

Pretend your anticipating a new game and just getting ready to jump into the beta! Look over the bugs, the lag, the frustration and try and focus on the Game!

I'm as aggravated as you about these problems. But I dont think they will be fixed until more players join the game. So I'm trying my damndest to think of ways to bring people into the game. Which then might give Horizons the much neededboost to enhance the engine, fix the bugs etc etc.

Would you invest money in fixing up an oldTavern that onlya dozendrunks like to frequent?

Would you invest money in fixing up an old Tavern that had a waiting list to get into?

Im losing steam here! help a dwarf out!

NimK

[Seranthor]

Think positive! Seranthor work with me here!

Would you invest money in fixing up an oldTavern that onlya dozendrunks like to frequent?

Would you invest money in fixing up an old Tavern that had a waiting list to get into?

Ok Nim, I'm positive that Prospecting is broken... :)

2nd question: Am I one of those drunks?

3rd question: This situation would never ever happen. You fix the tavern, you increase the capacity of said tavern before you go looking for new customers, it doesn't work to say 'Hey, come to my bar and spend your money then I can afford to fix it up'; you Fix first, then if your goods are attractive to the masses then they will come.

[Crazyfingers]

See you are agreeing with me and didnt even realize it!

"you Fix first, then if your goods are attractive to the masses then they will come." Exactly!

Then the tavern will have a waiting list! And folks will be willing to invest in the tavern to clean up the crappers and such.

No reason to fix up the crapper, if the 4 old drunks are just gonna p on the floor anyways.

NimK

[Seranthor]

exactly my point... if its a dive with only 12 barstools you dont slap a coat of paint on and hang a sign outside saying 'seating for 500' then in the extremely fine print say 'coming soon'.

[Crazyfingers]

Actually I have seen first hand what can be done with a dirty ol tavern. They livened up the joint. Added new tunes to the jukebox, attracted a whole new crowd, still had quarter beer nights for the diehards, added some darts boards. And yes they actually repainted it! They worked with what they had and made it better.

And guess what! Two years later they built a new tavern and 10 years later the place is still rockin. Why? Because they livened up the place and people had fun. Didnt really matter if it was an old smelly bar or a fancy new one. People showed up for the atmosphere. The atmosphere allowed for the new building.

If Tulga doesnt liven up this place. I find it hard to justify building a new engine.
It wont make the atmosphere any better.

NimK

[Seranthor]

Precisely, and making crafting harder (read more time consuming) doesn't liven up the game.

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

Seranthor,


You forgot to add that everyone must forget/bypass everything they have improved with crafting lately too - very important!


Bulgrim

[AA0]

Seranthor, I know you complain endlessly about wanting a new client. The work on the new client started some time ago, what more do you want? They can only work so fast, and only so many people can work on it, so why do you never stop complaining about this issue?
It will take time, live with it.

[Death-knell]

Seranthor,


You forgot to add that everyone must forget/bypass everything they have improved with crafting lately too - very important!


Bulgrim

You know Bulgrim, with the changes they made before this I was about to pat them on the back and thank them. But this crafting revamp and mithiril cluster F. They just chopped my arm off.