Killstealing, Grief, and all that jazz.

**Aamer Khan** · August 3rd, 2005, 05:58 AM

Every time KS'ing or Griefing ismentioned, it becomes a hot debate.

Some feel it just good old fun, others feel its ok due to no PVP, and still others feel that it hinders their game playing fun. It is sometimes very hard to figure out, due to general lag, invisible mobs and players, and even view distance settings. So, let me define what I mean exactly by Killstealing and Griefing.

Killstealing:
Targeting mobs already ingaged by another player on purpose with the intent of taking the mob from the previous player.

Griefing:
Willfully hindering the game play of another player by action, including spawn hogging, dragging mobs to players with the intent of getting them killed by the mobs, or any action that interfears with anothers normal game play.

One thing we see in Horizons is Spawn hogging. Because of multiclassing and the skills it provides a player, some have the ability to gather up all the mobs in a spawn area, and with little danger, drag them away to be killed. If nobdy else is in the same spawn area, this really is no problem. But when ever a spawn area is already occupied, and others come along and run in to do this, it can be considered both Killstealing and griefing. Both kinds of conduct are against the EULA.

Sadly, some who have done this, feel it is their right as a multiclassed player to do this. They express justification that others not as capable have less right to be at the spawn than them.
Some feel that it is great fun to do these things. Some feel that it's one way to get back at "enemy" players since there is no PvP. These justifications are always one sided when it occurs, and never satisfy the ones griefed by such actions.

So, what can be done?

First off, since such conduct is against the EULA, submit a ticket with any screen shots and copies of logs the tell the tail.

Second, don't decend to the same level as the griefers. If your response is filled with anger over this obviously unfair situation, then things will often get out of hand, and you might find yourself doing exactly what you are accusing them of doing. Responding with abusive words rarely works to defuse any ugly situation, and lowers you to the same level. Calmly explain that you were here already and that there is plenty mobs to go around. If this leads to abusive comments from the griefers, then its a good time to realize that talking may not solve this problem.

Reemeber, you have choices.

Even though it is NOT fair that you move to another spawn, if you move and they don't follow you, then the problem is solved for now. If however, they decide to follow you around to continue their brand of "fun" what can you do?

One method is to call a few friends, and just stay put. Be VERY careful with this method. It is very easy to fall into doing exactly what you are upset about. Patiently wait to pull mobs that are obviously not tagged by the problem group. Make NO taunts or threats. Quietly and calmly fill the spawn area with too many players. Soon there will not be enough mobs to support the players or the griefers. They will hopefully become bored with the lack of opportunity and move elsewhere. Remember, mobs belong to everyone, including those that may seek to hinder your gaming. They have no more "right" to the mobs than you.

TG wants us to try to work out player to player issues between ourselves. And generally, the issues must be harmful before they will become involved. There is no established method to lodge a complain against another player besides what I listed as the first step. However, we all realize that if a player is seen by a large part of the shard as KS'ing, Griefing, or being abusive it will become known. No need to lower yourself and announce it in market place. Just have a ton of your friends come out and quietly watch what is happening. Let peer pressure and being observed alone embarrass them. IF they stubbornly continue to do this, no matter. Soon, and without overt action, the shard will become aware and respond for you.

**R`aven_Sky`Dash** · August 3rd, 2005, 06:46 AM

I dont know Aamer...I personally dont consider mob hoggin to fall under griefing...just greedy. Griefing to me is an action that directly affects the welfare of yer char such as trainin, corpse campin (if that were possible in HZ)or personal harrassment. If a mob is not engaged by anyone its open huntin season. I do however believe ina little courtesy towards yer fellow player and leavin some mobs for them to fight.

If someone comes into a field and begins pullin everything I simply grab a gear and pull more aggressively myself without actually KS'n. Ive yet to have an issue with anyone in that regard...the ppl/uberpeds that can pull the field never seem to have a problem with it. It usually ends up with 1 of us migrating to 1 side of the field once its apparent that neither is backin down.

Technically theres nothin the powers that be can do about ppl pullin mobs from the field u happen to be fightin in that u havent engaged first.

That 1 is an issue u have to take into yer own hands and try to handle without the insult tells/shouts/ooc's and overall lame actions in return like trainin.

**Varangaard** · August 3rd, 2005, 07:26 AM

I felt that FFXI had a rather well working solution to straight-out killstealing. Mobs get tagged - their name turns red - when a player engages them. Thereafter, only characters belonging to that group are able to attack the tagged mob. Adds do not get tagged until they too are engaged. There's also the command equivalent to shouting help: the mob's name turns orange indicating 'I am fighting this one, but it is ok for others to attack too'.

**Death-knell** · August 3rd, 2005, 07:28 AM

Well lets not forget the pop problem also.

Last weekend I was in the mith fields just happily mining nodes when chat text comes across, "hey, that was my node" As I looked around for the source of that comment I could not see anyone. I backed up, turned around....no one was there. But Sameal was there he just was not showing on my screen. So I apologized and asked him what direction he was headed and went the opposite way. But if he hadn't said anything I could have been doing that to him all day.

As to kill steal, lets not forget lag and spell delay. I opened up from range on a golem, as my first attack hit I saw the mob react like he was getting hit from another direction. We had attacked him what seemed to be at the exact same time and by the time my stop action kicked in the mob was dead. Again, a system problem not players.

Now I know there are griefers and KS'ers out there, I just want to make sure folks aren't confusing others actions.

**Aamer Khan** · August 3rd, 2005, 07:58 AM

Good point Death-knell, thats why I made mention of it in the second paragraph.

But you do add very good points to remember. It can be VERY hard to tell who tagged a mob first in most areas. I have even had mobs walk right through me as if I was not there due to lag.

Sometimes, I fully believe that KS'ing happens from simple lag and is a complete accident.

This thread trys to address those few players who do it on purpose.

**Jayne** · August 3rd, 2005, 08:33 AM

Well what brought this on?

It's funny I see this post because recently I was with a group that complained about someone stealing mobs. When I asked the person who did it, "They said they didn't see us" and appologized. I then dropped it and went about my business.

But the group I was with mentioned something about sending in a ticket to complain about it! At that point I said

"Well while your reporting them for kill stealing send a ticket on yourselves for being able to jump 100 feet into the air". Yes 2 or 3 of these people were standing high up on a structure in safety while a few of us others are actually engaged in battle. Well when I said that, they all blamed someone in there guild for showing them how to do it. Hey, that person didnt twist your arm to do it. Then I got the cold shoulder.

It amuses me how some can sit and complain about someone else, but not even think about what they do. Like the pot calling the kettle black.

By the way, yes I did make mention of this when I arrived with the group and saw this. I don't normally like to group with others doing this sort of thing, but I travelled far to be with someone in the group that I like very much. I know others that do this but they are usually courtious of my feeling on the subject and they don't do it while I'm around.

But this reminds me I need to send in a ticket because this was supposed to be fixed a long time ago.

Jayne

Oh and by the way. This type thing is why I don't listen to some people and there complaints about changes they don't like or theres no content and all the other crying. Because usually the people crying are the same ones that are trying to take every short cut and cheating in the first place.

**Aamer Khan** · August 3rd, 2005, 09:25 AM

Like my first sentence says, this is always a hot subject.

Taking advantage of the existing system, through modifying a config file, is exploiting the system. The only way that will stop is when these settings are hard coded in the client and not kept in config files that are easy to edit.

Very often mistakes are made, appologized for, and everyone moves on. And two wrongs do not make a right...
( but THREE lefts do ) [;)]

But for the times this does not resolve in a pleasent manner, this thread explaines what you can do.

**kengar** · August 3rd, 2005, 09:53 AM

Usually, if I'm fighting far enough below my level that I can suck up mobs as fast as I find them, I'll scout the spawn first to make sure I'm the only one there before I start pulling. If someone shows up later that can actually level hunting there, I'll usually leave.

I try not to assume malice on anyone's part. If someone runs up to the same node that I'm working, I assume display glitch. If it's a rich node, I might say something. Regular nodes are common enough that I'll move on, and motherloads have plenty to go around.

It's a game, it's not worth stressing over. Easier said than done, sometimes, but I try to keep that in mind. [:)]

**imported_tjl** · August 3rd, 2005, 10:00 AM

I have run into problems in the past when pulling with spells with lots of range. I might hit a mob that some melee was running towards to engage. it's an accident, but one must be aware.[:)]

imported_peladon · August 3rd, 2005, 10:08 AM

( For purposes of reference _only_, this is an IC reply from Sephiranoth. His feeble avatar seeks to avoid speaking as itself, since it has no existance in Istaria. Also, Sephie thinks the avatar is an idiot... <G>. Sephie thinks these boards are an extension of the magical means by which it is able to make mind contact with any that are Gifted while waking. So there! <G>.

There is, of course, an element of avocatus diaboli in what follows. There is a difference between such and trolling, and one day I will be able to explain it. Honest... <G>)

Amer biped. That ye hale from the Chaos place be known. That the Chaos place be a different place be known. Yet on the Order lands I do walk and fly, though many may prefer I did not... <G>. And there it strikes me that the thing of which ye do speak be a thing that hath no small dysfunction.

This I will speak. In tides past I have killed that which another had hunted. Not by my will, and much disharmony resulted from that killing, that for many tides the Walter biped spoke naught save ill of me, if it spoke at all. And this I sought not. But, and this be the thing, there be the matter of Walter and there be the matter of the Gifted.

The Foe walk. They walk and they ravage our lands and they seek the dominance and destruction of that we value. And thus there are Gifted. And the task of the Gifted? No god hath spoken to me, and it may be I would not hear, or yet list if it did. But the Foe are. And the Gifted are. And where the Gifted are, then the Foe should no longer be. And thus it seems to me, that if I come to a minion of the Foe and that one walks, then it should not walk. And if another doth seek that end to the Foe and I also cast bolt or claw to that end, then the Foe falls but more swiftly. And that is true whether I do so cast, or if I cast first and another comes and casts and the Foe falls. That the Foe falls and swift to do so be the thing. Of course, there be the cry of the gathering of that which falls from the Foe, or the gain of skill from the slaying. And this indeed be a thing of concern, and mayhap rightly, for the one that doth feel agreived. BUT THE FOE BE FALLEN. And we be not Gifted for our own ends, save any claim we be the selcted of the gods and made so purely from the glory ofour spirits and the Foe be of no conseqeunce, and the dead that they maek be of no consequence. The females, the younglings, the warriors, the farmers, the lands destroyed, the knowing and the being lost to us... I walk with no such glorious spirit in me, that hath more merit than the lost knowing... Save my Lady mayhap... For the gain in skill, it comes or it doth not come. If the skill goes in part and part to each that slew in measure of their part in the slaying, then so let it be. If it doth go all and full to the one that first struck, and that one gathers all, then so mote it be. If it doth go to the one that laid the death blow, then so mote it be. THE FOE BE FALLEN. And thus our hunt as Gifted doth proceed as it should.

For the beasts, the walkers, the many legs, the hard shells, the spirits that rest not, they be not Foe. They be not our reason for being. They be the property of... They be owned by... They be... Why, they be as they are. They walk, and none have ownership of that walking. What do they have? They have skill to offer in their slaying. They have the need sof crafters to offer in their death. Those deathshave safety to offer those who may not so slay themselves. But, and this be a thing, if I walk the road and I do find a tree grow wild that bears fruit, and I do take that fruit to me ( Pfah! That I would so do... but it speaks to the thing...), then I have taken fruit! And if I walk, and I am gone, and another takes fruit? Why then none doth own the tree. I have lost naught. And if I still be there, and another would take fruit, is it my right to say that other nay? It be but fruit that is not mine... and the fruit will grow again. And if I or that other do sit to the tree and take all the fruit? Well, if it be the only tree, then indeed no other gains fruit. And I will bespeak those that hold me in some regard and mayhap that other finds no trade in the market, or is satirised before those others that walk with us, or I may sit and whimper among the market stalls at my ill fortune and the vile nature of others. I may... but seek not that thy breath doth still till that thing comes to be... <G>.

Yet more it may be said that a mighty draku I be ( though this be no true thing and Nobody and Nothing I walker ever, save the Feast). And that I need have no care for the things of which be spoken, and what of those younger? This I say. If there be greivance so, let it be spoken. If the mighty Xfghtyuedg draku be wandering the lands of the gingerbread ( an interesting biped creation!) golem walkers, and slaying all and the second season Noseeum dryad be unable to gather the skill or the trasure it needs because of this, then let Noseeum speak forth, in market or some other place set aside. Let these magic places here also see that speaking, perhaps once each seven dawns. Let the names be named, and the named also offer their stories as they will. Then let all see, let all assess and let all act, in trade or craft or the joining in common cause, as they will.

And this be a thing we call life. That some act as we would not have themact, this be life. That we do not gain all we seek to gain, this be life. That we face obstacle and we walk or fly or crawl above, or under or round the thing that stands in our path? This be life.

This be Istaria. And here I live...

**Kulamata** · August 3rd, 2005, 10:09 AM

On Order, it's been a long time since I saw intentional Kill-Stealing, and even longer since I saw any griefing.

Accidents do occasionally happen, for the reasons above, but I find that the players are very polite and careful about such. More so than any other game I've heard of.

As for crafting,instead of hopping to thenode you'll be moving to next,players move well away to a different part of the field.

All part of that "Soon to be semi-famous Horizons Community".

imported_peladon · August 3rd, 2005, 10:13 AM

Amer biped

Perhpas I will regret my speaking, but I fly and thus this I say.

While to some degree it doth depend on the degree of move, in common term, a turn to right or left be the turn from North to West or North to East. Or some similar change of flight... and thus it be, that two rights do not make a left, for then thy North comes South and thy destination thy point of departure. In this wise, it doth take three rights to make a left... as to three wrongs? That doth depend on the nature of the wrong, the nature of thoe one wroned and the nature of the one that works ill... <G>

**Aamer Khan** · August 3rd, 2005, 11:08 AM

And thusly I am corrected, fore indeed 3 lefts make a right and 2 lefts merely a reversal.

[8-|]

**Bulgrim StoneCleaver** · August 3rd, 2005, 12:37 PM

I think (as stated by others) most KS and NS <node stealing> has more to do with client rendering problems. Its better than it was <remembers the Kion Iron Days> but it still needs work. We don't have the same problems with this as I once experienced in EverCamp or even the little bit I saw in WoW.

Bulgrim

imported_peladon · August 3rd, 2005, 12:56 PM

Amer biped

Corrected? Not so. But Helian I walk, and precise speaking and matters of knowing be much in that walking. The dance of discourse, the chopping of logic and the crafting of those chopped parts to new knowing, or new seeing, that be of delight to Helian draku. For the True Flame is a prey that takesmuch hunting, and theAegis of confusion and delusion and misunderstanding and miscommunicationhave slain many that huntknowing and seeing.

If bipeds yet stumble in the hunting of True Flame, why then so do we draku and so we have even now, for it is the Helian wind to bring guidance, and those that stumble have just grievance before their guides.

Hunt well, Amer biped. The Flame burns, but it burns clean the world ye think ye do see about thee and makes thy sight yet clearer...

**Aamer Khan** · August 3rd, 2005, 01:02 PM

[:'(] My head hurts...

Aboroth · August 3rd, 2005, 01:17 PM

Somtimes Aamer we are unaware of such things...

One time me and my friend were on Alged, instead of pull killing annd that we pulled, we thought it was safer to have me (an archer) pull one, pull another and keep a constant flow...

Then i belive you entered trying to kill Fyakki, howeer we were so involved with what we were doing we did not see you and continued to pull purple spiders or fyakki which ever was closer...

thats when you asked us to please stop or to please leave the fyakki for the quest you had...which we ended up apoligizing for.

Somtimes these are not brought to hunters attention and people just say that spot is camped go somewhere else there hogging it, which most of the time we dont intend to.

I dont know if someone sayed this already but just read his first post and responed [:P]

**Aamer Khan** · August 3rd, 2005, 01:53 PM

I fully agree Aboroth.

I remember that time and and it worked out fine because of communication, just like you said.

Please don't think that this post has anything to do with any specific situation. After getting a few reports of true killstealing and griefing, I felt the need to make this generic post about the problem in general. Thankfully, we really don't see alot of this. But only WE can stop it, by open communication when we become aware. If it turns ugly, ( and sometimes it does ) then there are options to, at the very least calm it back down.

Why it still happens is not clear. Perhaps a few started playing again after playing a PvP game, and just forgot. Perhaps they are angry in general about the game or a RL situation, and their emotions got out of hand. We can control what we do in response, and it's good to see folks making those kinds of suggestions.

**imported_Twelvebagger** · August 3rd, 2005, 09:07 PM