THE GREAT CRAFT CHANGE (From Herald)

[Galem]

Okay, to make this fair, lets create all new craft schools and scrap the old ones. The new craft schools will be laid out like the proposal. Everyone starts again at 0 in all of the new crafts, and all your old crafts are invalidated.

Would you be willing to do it again because this new system is fun?

[AA0]

I really can't see why people are trying to fight this.

I see a proposal of equal amounts of exp over time, so your main levelling will not be affected, the new players won't be negatively affected.

I also see the introduction of miners/gatherers being a viable class, a class that can trade processed materials for ore or coin and increase the exp rate for themselves and the people they are helping (yes, this encourages some kind of social activity, don't panic)

The only change you will get is people that grind t5 resourcing on secondary crafting classes and then pawn them in attempts to PL their way in non-related fields. Mining and smelting metals in no way makes you a better jeweller. Nor does Quarrying and processing gems, you need to make the rings, form the metal and setting the perfectly cut gems.
This system makes so much more sense.

The miners/gatherers get a big boost
The construction classes get lots of help
The regular product type classes remain equal, with potential at exp gains from smart playing.....and that means less grinding. If you grind, its your option.

This change will also encourage a person that starts a new class to go back and work with lower tiered metals. You can buy them and get exp, you can mine them yourselves at the maximum rate, which is probably faster.


The complaints so far seem to be fears of the unknown, and inability to power level themselves. Just remember, you don't know all the details, things will be adjusted, and this isn't necessarily the last tweak to the crafting system, make there are further "logical" changes.

[Aamer Khan]

Great points AA0.

I was not joking before when I said this would foster interdependance. The main reason we don't have that now, is because we have the ability to bootstrap secondary classes on crossover skills.

Let's look at this another way for a second.

As a tinker, lvl 80, your called upon to make some flax cargo gear and a sandstone disk. Tell me... do you expect to get exp from these items? NO? why not? Because you have become to high now? What happens when you reach the cap? No more exp for anything.

At this point you are forced to craft for a different reason. To help someone other than YOU. The crossover skills have lead to being able to be one man craft factories once you have reached lvl 100 in a base class like Blacksmith or miner. And since you can make everything, what do you need other crafter for? You can make vast sums of money from PB runs, and after the change goes live, may have to spend some on interacting with other players, since classes will become more specialized than now. Oh, the horror, you have to start participating in the economy again.

I realize that this change will impact the long time players more than anyone else. I also see how it slows down the process, and how folks can view this as a nerf to the fast and east way they have become used to. To me, leveling has been a means to an end. A good rep as a fair and skillful crafter, is the goal I have been shooting for all along. That is the end I seek to reach. This change makes having crafting meaning. Those that make level cap from then on will truly have accomplished a mighty feat. Not just repeated the grind over and over.

I wish this had gone in long ago, but hind sight is 20/20. At least future players will feel accomplishment and pride. I'm actually beginning to feel ashamed over the grinding that I have done. I can remember early in game how folks would razz those that ground tools to make 100 carpenter. My how we all have changed.

[Crazyfingers]

You do better in analogies *G*

The difference is that we are going out, harvesting our own resources and then creating a product. Showed XP be interdependent for both, maybe , maybe not.

It's a tough call, but then this is a game and it's suppose to be fun. So saying we're going to split your school into 2 seperate ones does make it a bit of a hassle. But what of those that have no choice, dragons can't choose to go be a harvester or a producer. We are both.

well time for some [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-44.gif[/img] and some deep thought

Dwarfs cant choose to fly either but we can be tossed. So I dont have a choice to fly and dragons dont have a choice to multiclass. But as a Player you Do have a choice. Its real easy. Just start another character. Then I can Fly!

BTW why does everyone want to have the same abilities anyways? And the exact same path to achieve them. Personally I wish Spellcrafting was more challenging, so achieving it would mean something. As of now, knowing that every tom, ******** and harry is a level 100 spellcrafter by quarrying marbles is aggrevating. While I have made thousands of teched spells for fellow players. Wouldnt it make more sense for the actual spellcrafter to get rewarded over a person that quarries marbles, dont even have half the spells and knows absolutely nuthing about the class? Of course it does, and anyone that argues against it is a booger eater.

I hope for the best with this improvement[Y] and with a few more like it, maybe even ol Dozer will give it a try.

NimKhazad

[LaughingOtter]

maybe even ol Dozer will give it a try.

Well, that's one thing that *might* change my stance on PvP...

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

The change protects the following:

-Dragons
-Already known skills
-The rate of advancement for players that level schools by making things the school is designed to make
-The ability to multiclass by using already learned non-primary skills in a school that uses that same skill as primay. Example: Level blacksmith to 100, use smelting skill from blacksmith to quickly level miner.
-The ability to level construction schools at an acceptable rate via an major increase to the building material application XP and better trainer tasks

The change would remove the following:

-Players reaching level 100 in schools without making any of the intended items. Example: Leveling weaponsmith to 100 off tools, leveling armorer off only metal bars, leveling spellcrafter off brew stirrers.
-Players being able to reach 100 in construction schools without building a damned thing


Anyone that thinks this change is stupid either doesn't understand the proposal, enjoys mindless tedium leveling 8 schools off one resource, likes cheapening of effort put into leveling crafts, or doesn't care about people that take an honest approach to joining a trade, or just like complaining when something different happens.

Complaints can be sent to the following:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/Sho...x?PostID=84164

[kengar]

you do get knowledge and experience grocery shopping. Thats why when I walk into my local market I can go right to the shelf I want. Thats knowledge gained from experience. I get continuing experience as they play musical chairs with their products and I experience the new changes. Now if I go into another store and its laid out differently it takes me longer to find what I need.

Yup. On the other hand, I don't know any good cooks that learned everything they know wandering the isles of the grocery store wihtout ever cooking a meal, but that's the situation we have with crafting in Istaria. Being able to get the ingredients is beneficial to being a good cook and you learn that as an incidental part of learning to cook. However, if you've never stepped in a kitchen, you still won't know how to cook.

[imported_tjl]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Crazyfingers wrote:
maybe even ol Dozer will give it a try.



Well, that's one thing that *might* change my stance on PvP...

rofl. i'm next in line then to pvp that one.

[Dha'Vol]

So let me get this straight. They are making Mithril an alloy, then taking away the xp forsmelting it?

I was under the impression that the point of making Mithril an alloy was "because it is a little too easy". I get that impression because Manga said it.

So they "solved" that problem by making it an alloy.

Then the metal workers of Istaria get this second kick in the nuts. Granted everyone is getting this one.

I guessus metal workers are special. We get two. [+o(]

[Seranthor]

Lol, I'm not stepping into this trap, but you cant cook anything unless you know how (or have the form).....

*mumbles* and throws another mackerel in the silo.

[Galem]

Anyone that thinks this change is stupid either doesn't understand the proposal, enjoys mindless tedium leveling 8 schools off one resource, likes cheapening of effort put into leveling crafts, or doesn't care about people that take an honest approach to joining a trade, or just like complaining when something different happens.

Complaints can be sent to the following:

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=84164

Nice.

I'm guessing you're on this 'focus' group.

Arrogant much?

[belezar]

Ok, I'll bite on this -

<By the way, I don't think RL comparisons should be the 'norm' when trying to understand a fantasy game.I'm going to give this one, mainly to offer up the reason why I don't have TOO much of a problem with this proposed change- I like logical reasons to do things and, in this instance, it makes sense to me.>

I am a carpenter in RL - as a hobby. I can build furniture like chairs, bookcases, shelves, tables, cabinets and even kids toys. I understand woods - how to work them, the best ones for grain, staining, etching, routing, joining etc. I could even do framing for houses or a wall addition in a house.

I personally, have never harvested my own wood for my projects. While, I do believe I could learn something about wood by working with the raw resource, most of my experience gained is by building things with wood that is ready to befinished or worked after it is harvested. I wouldn't mind experiencing a project from the very beginning (from tree harvestingto final coat of varnish), but I wouldn't be a very good carpenter or gain much skill in it by having to do so for every project.



The above example is howI deal with this change. I just extrapolated whyI think the developers have decided to do this. It is very late in the game to do such a thing - as someone else said, its like closing the barn doors after the horses have left. Again, an extrapolation on this: I get the feeling they want to release a boxed version of the game again and it may be a priorityfor them to get this "bootstrapping" effect fixed before that happens.

Yep, its closing the barn doors/mending the fence too late for the herd they have atm, but if they have hopes of increasing their herd by 3-4 times, they really should think about mending the fence and making sure there's a latch on the barn door that will keep it shut.

I know, people don't want to hear that but population increase on a pretty large level is the fastest way to increase development, jumpstart/speed up work on a new engine and (for in game purposes) to help make the market healthy again. Maybe these changes will lose people that are subscribed but maybe Tulgais gaining enough subs per month to survive the loss of players who are generally in the last 5% of content. I don't think they are trying to force people away, I think they are laying the ground work to make people stay when it comes to crafting.

Bulgrim

Bulgrim,

I belive you are off the mark in regards "why" people are leaving. The overwhelming complaint is poor client server performance, lag, long load times, invisible mobs fundamental game issues of that nature.

I don't think tweaking mithril or a more "realistic" quote unquote application of crafting XP is going to bring the multitudes to horizons. Even as one of your examples clearly illustrated "only" a two or three hour increas in levelling up time. Question is why make someone spend and extra two or three hours doing repetitive boring grind. Why is it that changes don't increase levelling speed?

If the changes increase the overall time taken to achieve say lvl 100 in any given class then this is just mindless grind and does nothing to enhance the gameplay.

Im a lvl 59 blacksmith at the moment and mining ore for my level, not being powerlevelled is a mindnumbing drudgery. I was looking forward to reaching 100 and then powering up a few other classes, using say metal for my Jewler.

If this change comes in, I doubt I'll stick with horizons and I know a few close friends who would likely leave also. Technically it may be a brilliant very realistic concept, gameplay enhancement or fun factor two thumbs down it limits an easier advancement path and forces me to more grind and quite frankly boredom. [N][N]

[Death-knell]

The change protects the following:

-Dragons

http://community.istaria.com/Web/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=84164

What? How does it protect Dragons, we are dragged into this biped insanity.

[Kulamata]

The key thing about some posters' approach to this is that the proposed change is about taking away capabilities that they View With Alarm.

If that is the guiding principle behind the change, I don't think it will succeed. If the idea is toreduce grind, and it is successfully executed I think it will help the game flourish.

It may be possible that the focus group has a high percentage of people who find things of which "We Do Not Approve". If so, it may be a bit misleading, as most players simply don't care about these things as passionately as some of the posters.

Adventurers get a boost from already having achieved a high level, as their stats remain. Crafters should also have some sort of boost for their prior experience. Guaranteeing that a second craft will be as long and as slow as the first is not going to be attractive to senior players.

Also some posters are saying that the proposed overhaul will definitely have some features. I think that guaranteeing features so early in the development process cannot be done responsibly.

[belezar]

Okay, to make this fair, lets create all new craft schools and scrap the old ones. The new craft schools will be laid out like the proposal. Everyone starts again at 0 in all of the new crafts, and all your old crafts are invalidated.

Would you be willing to do it again because this new system is fun?

I agree 100% if this new system is going to be so much better start us off again at zero. Existing multiple tier crafters could pick a main at 100 but the multiples would be dropped.

/sarcasm on
Sure some would leave but the in the long term so many more players would be drawn to Horizons because now it's harder to gain crossover xp in craft levels using mundane resources. You now get to spend more time harvesting mundane resources and "realistically" gain experience when you combine them for your "proper" school.

Yes the client server performance, lag, long load times and invisible mobs still exist, but the queues are already forming as MMOG fans line up to sample more endless hours of crafting grind.
/sarcasm off

I think for the sake of technical correctness some entities are willing to destroy Horizons. Lets focus on fundamental gameplay issues not fiddling with the frills.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

The reason there are so many people that have every craft school is because there is NO downside to multischool in crafting, not even the tiny bit that there is in adventure schools. Looking back on it I think they should have stuck with the much more severe experience cut on multiple schools in Adventure classes, and they should have made the same thing work for Craft classes.

The developers should have stuck to their guns at the time, not making it as easy on us as they did. Look at where easing up on it has lead us.

Umm, I'd like to know when this happened? I've been here since Beta, August 2003, and never ONCE has crafting XP ever ever EVER worked like adventuring XP. So I've no idea where you get the implication that the devs ever needed to "stick to their guns" or were "easing up on it." It was NEVER proposed to have XP work the same across the board. Never suggested, never implied, nothing. There were no guns to stick to and there was no easing up. It has ALWAYS been this way.

[Drevar]

I just hope we see this change go in before the T6 forms become available. It would make working in T6 actually mean something, and not just purely an XP orgy.

Drev

[Death-knell]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Death-Knell wrote: You do better in analogies *G*

The difference is that we are going out, harvesting our own resources and then creating a product. Showed XP be interdependent for both, maybe , maybe not.

It's a tough call, but then this is a game and it's suppose to be fun. So saying we're going to split your school into 2 seperate ones does make it a bit of a hassle. But what of those that have no choice, dragons can't choose to go be a harvester or a producer. We are both.

well time for some [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-44.gif[/img] and some deep thought

Dwarfs cant choose to fly either but we can be tossed. So I dont have a choice to fly and dragons dont have a choice to multiclass. But as a Player you Do have a choice. Its real easy. Just start another character. Then I can Fly!

BTW why does everyone want to have the same abilities anyways? And the exact same path to achieve them. Personally I wish Spellcrafting was more challenging, so achieving it would mean something. As of now, knowing that every tom, *** and harry is a level 100 spellcrafter by quarrying marbles is aggrevating. While I have made thousands of teched spells for fellow players. Wouldnt it make more sense for the actual spellcrafter to get rewarded over a person that quarries marbles, dont even have half the spells and knows absolutely nuthing about the class? Of course it does, and anyone that argues against it is a booger eater.

I hope for the best with this improvement[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-21.gif[/img] and with a few more like it, maybe even ol Dozer will give it a try.

NimKhazad

young one, your education seems to have been neglected. Lets this old helian school you into what it is to be a dragon.

Dragons are the jack of some trades masters of none. We are spellcasters and warriors, of courseour skills in either combat don't even rival the base biped classes. Our crafting abilities also do not rival the biped base classes Add to that a marginal stat bonus upon leveling. Skill bonuses are equally marginal. Not to mention biped stat/skill bonusesaccrue for every class even when you switch classes you do not lose those bonuses.

The above challenges are what it is to be dragon, flight is partial payment for those who persevere. And lets talk about flight, can a dragon attck while airborne? Well no. Can we defend ourselves while airborne? Well no. Can we heal ourselves, buff ourselves? Well no not that either. Flight is a point "A" to point "B" transport.

So, please don't try and add to our burden.

[Crazyfingers]

hmmm most dragons I know like being dragons.Say that its fun.One of the reasons they became a dragon is because they could fly! And dragons were different. Most have been level 100/100 for centuries.

Why dont you just play a biped if you want all those things that you speak of?

Methinks you have biped envy.

NimK

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

What? How does it protect Dragons, we are dragged into this biped insanity.

The dragon crafter school should remain unchanged. All skills primary.

=-=-=-

XP's gonna be adjusted to make up for a lack of smelting XP in schools outside miner. In the end you should make the same XP as a weaponsmith making and deconning mithril weapons in the new system as you do now making mithril bars plus mithril weapons.

Here's how it is now with say, weaponsmith experience from a load of mithril bars.

Now:
Make bars, get say... 20,000XP
Make and decon weapons, get say... 40,000XP
Total Experience: 60,000XP

After proposed changes:
Make bars, get 0XP since smelting isn't a primary skill for weaponsmiths
Make and decon weapons, get 60,000XP
Total Experience: 60,000XP

Change in end-result XP: Zero, or close to it.

There will be little or no change in experience unless you powerlevel crafts off tools or only resources

This isn't a nerf, it's an exploit fix.

Anyone that finds a real, ligitmate problem with the changes should post them here, not just say this change sucks. Right now I don't see any negative effects from this other than stopping people from blowing through a craft in a week once they're optimum on mithril picks or marble brew stirrers. It doesn't many any sense to become a master spellcrafter without making a single spell. Having tools often be the "best" was to level a craft school, bypassing the main product of the school, is detrimental to the game and should be changed. The proposed change is a quick, simple, and logical fix to many problems with the game's craft system that preserves work already accomplished. Better to be unable to level off tools than unable to make them at all.