THE GREAT CRAFT CHANGE (From Herald)

[Nalrach]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Nalrach wrote: The Devs are better seriously think how they want to play that one

That's funny, cuz it wasn't a dev that came up with the idea.

Hal, my comment still stand no matter where the idea is from. The Devs gonna have to really think the way they want to deploy this if they addopt it as a rule. It certainly is a drastic play strategy change that is not gonna please evryone.

[imported_Zayin]

Well they said lairs and ARoP would be in by Jan 05 so I am not gonna get myself worked up over on a concept still on the drawing board.But I really do like the Idea just wish it was in from the release.

[Nalrach]

... personally I've not got a prob with the proposed changes since it impliesI can save a tonne of time by buying resources from miners / gatherers and still get the same exp [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-2.gif[/img]

The question like someone else mention ... how many players will be interested to level miners and gatherers.

Plus like many players, my funds are often low and purchassing all those treated raw resources could be expensive. and when the miners makes no more xp from a resources, that resources will not be available anymore. And this is what we see rigth now people have to gather their t1-t3 resources because their is no new low level base players groups to do the t1-t3 stuff.

[Logikality]

So from reading all on this thread I have a few questions, are dragons going back to being class based like in beta, is this coming before the end of august, and when are the other problems going to get fixed?

[imported_Zayin]

even though you wont get exp from making the bar/orb or whatever doesnt mean you CAN'T make them just means you wont get any exp for it. As long as they adjust the exp for the completed materials like they said they would I dont see the problem.

[Nalrach]

Now:
Make bars, get say... 20,000XP
Make and decon weapons, get say... 40,000XP
Total Experience: 60,000XP

After proposed changes:
Make bars, get 0XP since smelting isn't a primary skill for weaponsmiths
Make and decon weapons, get 60,000XP
Total Experience: 60,000XP

Change in end-result XP: Zero, or close to it.

Your number are interesting, but the current reality is more like...
Make bars, get say... 40,000XP
Make and decon weapons, get say... 20,000XP
Total Experience: 60,000XP

I really agree that the the XP been focuss on raw resource making is wrong, and need to be addressed .. but not wiped out.

Your new figure work well for items crafters, but in case of construction ... it's not garantee that I would find a building with a owner willing to pay for me to apply resources to it. Or as a mtter of fact .. how may t5 & t6 building do you see around.

In the case of construction their is 3 step process;
- treat raw resources
- make construction material
- applied the units to a construction

if your putting all the xp on completing the skill something is wrong

There will be little or no change in experience unless you powerlevel crafts off tools or only resources

This isn't a nerf, it's an exploit fix.

Not really as a spellcrafter it is one of my skill to be able to make stone tools, or are we to stop spellcrafter to make stone tools and only allow schoolar to do so. (personnaly tools making is more for cash making to me)

The solution is not in nerfing part of the games but more, re-allocating the XP value toward the primary skill of the crafter. If your argument is you feel people earn level by making the wrong thing since it's not their primary skill, look more toward an incentive to look for bettre xp then nerfing evrything.

Take an example; construction worker that is trying to level t5 skill, and their is no t5 building to apply is material. Well if you place a 50-66% (1/2-13) reduction xp on non primary skill, he would still be able to progress and eventually level even is no construction work is available.

A complete nerf is not the solution.

[AA0]

Nalrach, explain how this is a nerf?
You do the same amount of work and get the same amount of exp.
I also wouldn't call it an exploit fix, as it was never an exploit, it was just a design oversight. The system was intended to be this way intially.

Also, why would a construction worker want to take a reduction in exp if they can go to a trainer and get a quest to get the full value, if not more? Your suggestions are just saying lets increase the grinding, and I don't think you really want that...

[Crazyfingers]

its not a nerf, its an improvement. Big difference.

This improvement allowsgrinders to keep playing the way they want. They just wont get experience for it. This improvement promotes interaction and hopefully the economy. This improvement is logical. You gain experience for actually producing the goods the class was meant for.This improvement could also havemany possibilies of being fun.Friends working togetheron their craft skills.

And the number1 greatest thing this improvement could bring. Folks might stop thinking about their ******** levels and only doing things that net them xp, And start playing the game! Once this happens, Players can add valueable insight to help developers make better improvements based onFUN not levels.

Oh and about construction, make it so every tier item placedscores a construction school xp, just a smaller amount. So even if your a level 99 mason you can still gain xp for helping another player with his sandstone blocks. Maybe then more plots in istaria will be complete. If you want to become a high level Mason bad enough, just become a block layin machine. Helps the community and builds you a nice reputation.

So really whats wrong with this improvement?

NimK

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Bulgrim StoneCleaver wrote: Fifth: Why don't you do some research on this first before getting your panties in a bunch.

Reasearch ... your joking. This was the first time this subject was presented to the entire communauty. And no I do not have the time to read all the individual shard forums. If it was discussed, it was in the Chaos shard forums.Or in one ofthose IRC chat that happend at fancy hours. As to getting my panties in a bunch, since this is the first time I see the post .. I feel my rigths to express my feeling. All I can answer is to what I can read. All your items 1 to4 was not in the post that the herald publish about your commission proposal, and the Heral let make believed that this was a change consider by the devs. And if I look four page off comments, a lot of people have thing to say.. which I will read, but I had to reply to your agressive remark first.



Now with this over, three things you mention I want to comment.

As to the quest from trainer's I strongly doubt that we will see some rewards that worth the waste of time to travel back and forth from resources to trainer. (Which I recently tried with my newly acquired skill of fitter thinking with lates changed it had to be better way to train) As record's show, it has not been Tulga policies to have trainer quest worth the trouble to do them. The XP stink, the click get, do, click get reward and reclick to get again and again is a waste of time, plus passing trought the dum long conversation is after the first time a watse. I for one don't appreciate or participate in the trainer reward quest. Their is far better xp to be made by treathing raw resources and tools then doing the trainer quest.

As to seeing better xp for placing resources on construction (or making items) orthe issue it was not normal to have no xp for construction work, but still get xp for treathing raw resources .. this was talked a year and half ago, and AE then Tulga have not done anything with the issue.

As to "make no xp" on gathering and making "step one items", I simply don't agree with "the no xp policies". The time you pass making the base resource you require should be rewarded. But I agree that it's should not be the main xp of the total work. Which rigth now represent 75-100% of the xp. It should be 25% of the total xp, and the rest according to the crafte skill (ie construction 35% on making the units and 40 on applying)

Ok Nalrach,

Let do a little time line/review and also lets take a look at the "tone" of your opening remarks in the creation of this thread. We'll also explore how with a tiny bit of research you could have found some answers fairly quickly.

First the Time Line:

-In the thread created by Nim: "How would crafting system be made better?" Smeglor made his post which basically announced that Tulga wasconcideringthese craft school changes- it was on08/02/05 at 7:42pm est (my time).

- In the same thread I made a comment about it at 8:00pmest.

- On 08/02/05 at 8:16pm est, I quoted Smeglor's Post to the ongoing discussion of the "Blight Patch Notes 7/27/05" thread -to meits on page 5. This thread remained near the top ofthe general page.

- On 08/02/05 at 8:23pm est, I again quoted Smeglor in the ongoing discussion of the "Blight Update Notes for July 12th, 2005" thread. Its 11 pages long (again to me). Discussion continued on it and this thread continued to remain near the top of the general page.

- On 08/03/05 at 10:26pm est, you created a new thread with the little red angry sign.Here's what you typed:

"My two bits comment.

The Devs are better seriously think how they want to play that one ... xp for producing final craft item is soo low and short time lived (ie: you still get xp for the brick, but none for construction), that this will kill the levelling of the crafter. Plus I'm not sure I really want to level miner, just to make bricks so that I can craft for mason.

To put this is a serious option on killing the crafter player base.

Instead of nerfing things out, why don't you seek way to enhance the current live craft. Place more XP on the final product, and have the optimized to use i resources. And keep the progression 100%-75%-50%-25% of resources required."

So, after reading about this in the Herald Notes - over 24hrs after it was announced, you decided to create a new topic rather than look in the two Blight Patch Notes topics which obviously (based on the page count) had some serious topic being discussed. Both these topics of discussion were probably very near the top of the general page as well.

You offered your "two bits" - without doing any reading on the discussion that had occured and was ongoing (including developer responses) - in an entirely new thread. This [:@] , combined with your un-informed view on the topic (thinking you would have to level miner to play a mason for one) and not following a thread obviously in progress, caused me to offer up my "Fifth" point to you.

- As to your doubts about the trainer quests- save your little rant (everything after your first sentence on that subject was just that) for after there's something to test on live.

- As to your "seeing better xp for placing resources" (I assume you meant const units), again save it for testing - if its poorly done or not worth it, that's the time to bring up the issue.

- As to the "make no xp" part, you have a valid point about that - too bad you stuck it at the end of a couple rants/complaints because it took me a couple times of reading it to see it was a good point. I generally don't waste too much time reading rants (except in the rants forum) - that's changed somewhat with the latest announcements because I don't like seeing all the dis-information floating around on the topic and I personally think its a good idea if done correctly/fairly.

Bulgrim

[Valornyx]

Maybe I'm stupid and am missing something .. but won't it make levelling crafting easier (assuming the xp/time balances what is currently happening)?

Players with higher levels will be able to afford to buy resources and get the same xp that they would currently get for making the resources AND the finished goods.

If you can do this you will be significantly ahead since it is the gathering of the raw resources (which no one gets any xp for) that takes all the time.

It would create a market for bars and slabs etc.. for all those high levelled players who want to be able to level faster and have wads of cash stored away - in the same way people buy trophies.

If enough people are willing to buy bars and bricks - won't people want to make miners and gatherers to capitalize on that market?

If the xp/time rmains constant or improves - there is no "nerf" .. If (as has been shown with studies on Blight with the new mith) there is a degradation of xp/time - then it is in our interests to help them test it and show them the hard data - and campaign for xp balancing - rather than jump up and down yelling nerf.

As I say - maybe I have completely missed the point - I certainly know little about the construction crafts and don't know what the issues may be there.

[Hal`cyon Sskyler]

A new way for players to interact for the better good of each other? Egads! What blasphemy! [:D]

(Idea was intended, but not new. In the current system you can still team up with a miner while in a school like weaponsmith and benefit each other.)

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

For all those that might not know - there is a discussion on going in a topic about crafting created by Nim in the Discussions Forums. There are a few people that have offered up some alternatives to the crafting changes. If you want to add to it and help the debate - please come over. If you want to rant about it - go start a thread in those forums.

Bulgrim

[Laneth]

Can't we all just get along?? [:)]

Lets have some [pi] and [B] and put some differences behind us.

because whether we are for or against these changes, they are coming. We've all found out in the past that once the devs have made up thier mind to make a change like this, nothing nobody says will make a difference. So why should we try tearing our community apart over it. As things go, we each have a decision to make about the upcoming change when it gets here. We either adapt and trudge foward or we quit and find somewhere else to go. I don't want to see people quit over this change, but it has already happened. I want to see my game grow and prosper. and yes, it is my game, it is what i make of it. So lets try to make the best of the situation ahead.

[Entilzah]

The focus group topic was locked due to derailment and antagonism amongst posters. I don't want to be locking a second topic, so I'll make a deal. Keep personal criticism out of this topic, and I'll refrain from locking it and introducing whoever caused it to be locked to the moderation queue. I'm going to remove any posts from this last page that I feel have derailed this topic already, and I hope we can get back to discussing matters amicably.

[Akuluxtraxas]

I love the change. it is a fantastic start to balancing and restoring meaning to classes. boosts a market for miners etc and dragons (via the high players buying which i even do now often especially for level grind as i hate it). It also makes sense (logic in Hz?? WOW!)

yes it will make crafting more work only if you want multiple 100s. It from my understanding will not slow down leveling a school from how they should be leveled.

Granted the idea for limiting XP to the tier your second school in would also be very positive if they want to truly implement a real change however also you cant really ruin multi either so maybe set a cap on that mithril XP instead of forcing it to tier II say give it tier III XP as if you earned 100 you deserve to gain from it.

Yes this hurts dragons some if they prefer leveling on gems which is very common now but first im willing to give that up for a better game as well as the fact with plots and etc there many ways to level even faster and if your after money it wont stop that you just get no XP. Also laircrafting im sure will effect this further.

I support this change and hope more changes like it come to craft and adventure as it will make a better game. as far as the ignoring other issues i dont see that being done at this point. yes its going slow but i think what is being done is multiple connected areas at a time. lairs and ARoP for example look on par to be out very close to the same time which i think is great.

keep up the good work and definitly i hope to test all these changes as maybe Hz is truly changing for the better finally

[Nalrach]

Or if you want radical, remove the exp from crafting completely. Make all craft exp based on quests given by your trainer, let people do a max of one quest per hour, and give them a level worth of experience for completing the quest.

Now here a good well taught idea .. let's go from one extreme to the other.

Anymore good one like this one. Because as record show, trainer quest is not what excite and drive the players. We have things to build and want to build them fast, and it's not by adding having to grind trainer quest (get one quest, go do the work & return.. a waste of time in travel) that your going to get people excited about crafting.

[Nalrach]

if all this goes ahead and i will be able to adfjust to all this to make things maybe a bit easier it might b an idea to put anvils and stuff back in the field where they were removed from at least

I second that one, return the 2nd tools back with the primary tools. Obviously AE taught they could stop fats levelling by this action. Tulga need to reverse that decision, because having to run to a town to process treated material had's nothing to the game pleasure. But ifI be able to create the construction unit I need to fill my disc and move to the site I need to place them, that would make this run to town back to resource less annoying.