The big picture

[Crazyfingers]

I'm having a hard to explaining things. Most of my ideas and suggestions might not make much sense with how Horizons is now. For one thing, they cannot be tested. It takes players interacting to make them work. The results are unknown and very hard to predict. Can really only go on past experience and gut feeling.
Somethings you just gotta try, if they dont produce the results, scrap it and move onto the next. Its not one thing thats gonna improve Horizons, gonna take a series of things.

Dragon enhancements- Devs on it
Immersion- devs on it
Improved crafting- ideas are floating around
Improved adventuring
reducing the dependance on the veilo
Improved economy
better loot tables and rare items
a war against the WA
dungeon crawl type areas
events, fluff, and better quests

You add these all up, and Horizons could turn into something special. Alot of these changes/improvements could be made fairly easy, if we worked on ideas that used the current system but made it better. And then people agree on it!

We are paying to play a beta, developers should at least consider our suggestions.

If these improvements were made and the players liked the results on the current 3 shards. I for one, wouldnt be a bit upset, if the devs shut the game down for a month, improved or changed game engine. Repackaged the product, charged 50 bucks and opened back up with a refreshingly improved Horizons.

NimK

[Seranthor]

Nim as much as I like what your saying one thing must occur for HZ to survive.

It needs a stable, scalable client and the hardware to run it on. Running into an area then having to wait on mobs/resources to spawn isn't how things should work, invisible mobs isn't how things should work, cascading memory leak isn't how it should work. Without addressing these issues HZ will NOT grow in a manner in which you wish to see it, I'm sorry.

Lets use your little hole in the wall tavern analogy for a bit... If you walk into the tavern and its empty you'll turn around and leave, but just as you get to the door all the patrons and staff magically appear?... WTH is that? its not how it should work.

or, you want an ale and you hear a voice, 'what will you have today?' and you turn and no one is there you'll think your hearing things and after enough time you'll get torqued and leave or you'll check into the local funny farm.

or, you walk in and *Bam* you fall into a hole in the floor and it takes you all night to get out. Again, WTH is that?


I DO want to see HZ survive, but you dont paint the car before you do the primer work and fix the body damage do you? No, you do the work in the right order, then and only then will your buyer buy it.

[imported_Leannae]

We are paying to play a beta, developers should at least consider our suggestions.

<looks around the house cautiously for hidden microphones and listening devices>

Creepy, I was just saying the same thing to Bori just today! <shudders>

[imported_Twelvebagger]

or, you walk in and *Bam* you fall into a hole in the floor and it takes you all night to get out.

stop picking on me!

;)

[Seranthor]

Come on 12, you know we need you on point so we know where not to step... :)

[Crazyfingers]

I agree about the client/hardware stuff. But this stuff cost tons o money. Money that Tulga may not have at this time. I have come to deal with that. Maybe everyone has bad credit and they cant get a loan for it. Maybe they are trying to work with what they have until they can afford new equipment. I can only guess.

But what I do know is they have a dozen or so dedicated developers and acouple thousand dedicated players willing to pay to test a beta for the survival of the game. Working together on improvements cannot hurt the game. But there is a good possibility that it could help. Help make the game more fun, bring in new customers, give the devs some confidence, bring in more cash for new equipment.

Purchasing a new engine, etc for 200-300 bucks and switching the databases etc over to it would be ideal in an ideal situation. Unfortunately I dont see that being an option right now, for whatever reason.

I cant argue about this. You are right but other things might have to happen before its an option.

NimK

[Carinde]

The client is definitely a major issue with Horizons. Restarting the game after a few teleports just because you suddenly drop to 2.5 frames a second is astoundingly ridiculous. Not to mention several other issues that people point out. (...and *never* underestimate the power of fluff!![:D] )

However, you are 100% right Nim, Tulga has both developers and insanely dedicated players that are willing to do whatever it takes to make Horizons survive; because for all of the yelling, whining, screaming, and arguing that people do here, a lot of us do it because we see something special and don't want it to go to waste.

Smelgor, Manga, David, Amon...anyone who might be listening, we'll support you as best we can. We're willing to do more than just play, all you have to do is tell us what you need.

[Jayne]

How much is a Client? Maybe I can give them a loan?

Jayne

[LaughingOtter]

How much is a Client? Maybe I can give them a loan?

I have no idea, but I'dthink two millionwould geta fair amountof dedicated client improvement headcount....

[:D]

[AA0]

The client has been in the rewrite stage for a while now, it takes a long time with their limited resources. To save money I believe tulga has said they are looking for an open source engine.

This is going to take time, and tulga has commented they will attempt to improve this client at the same time. You can buy an engine for a lot of money, but you still need to put your code into the client, so only more devs will really make stuff happen quicker.

[Seranthor]

Yes AA0, I'm absolutely certain they need more money to rewrite the client, but to do that it is extremely essential that they retain every dollar that customers are willing to give them (read: subscriptions), it behoves them to make changes that will NOT (read: NOT) cause those dollars to leave (read: dont repeatedly piss of your customers).

/mode personal opinion on

1) Proposed Mithril change will NOT encourage new potential players to subscribe.
2) Proposed Mithril change will NOT encourage former players to return.
3) Proposed Crafting change will NOT encourage trial players to convert to actual paying subscriptions.

/mode personal opinion off

When you drive off your potential income then it is even more important to retain those few customers you DO have that ARE giving you money.

[Senkeleron Fell]

Yes AA0, I'm absolutely certain they need more money to rewrite the client, but to do that it is extremely essential that they retain every dollar that customers are willing to give them (read: subscriptions), it behoves them to make changes that will NOT (read: NOT) cause those dollars to leave (read: dont repeatedly piss of your customers).

/mode personal opinion on

1) Proposed Mithril change will NOT encourage new potential players to subscribe.
2) Proposed Mithril change will NOT encourage former players to return.
3) Proposed Crafting change will NOT encourage trial players to convert to actual paying subscriptions.

/mode personal opinion off

When you drive off your potential income then it is even more important to retain those few customers you DO have that ARE giving you money.

Replace "Proposed Mithril change" with "Adding Confectioner formulas" and see if you feel the same way.

[Jayne]

:O

Jayne

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

Seranthor,

I'm not trying to push a button here but what if they are getting ready to take the client back to retail shelves?

Do they make that kind of fix after a whole new batch of players buy the game or before?

If it is the case that they are going the route of a new clientel (ie a completely new batch of players who might not have heard of Horizons) - how much do we matter really?

Those are my opinons based on my own business sense. I'm not in the MMO business - I'm in pharmaceuticals. I do surf various boards andfor many people, Horizons doesn't even exist or died back in May.

What is the percentage of people that playwho actually participate on game boards as well - something like 10-15%? Well, WoW has probably doubled the MMO player market. The pool of players is much larger than it was even two years ago. You can be new to MMO's and still be a power-gamer, hell, I was before I even played EQ1. It took me a little over two years to move on and start to become a "MMO vet". I'm not even gonna say that Horizons beats WoW - not even close in enjoyment factor. BUT, when I get tired of a game I'm playing, I find myself at the computer gaming store - surfing the selections and picking up what looks interesting. Its how I got into Horizons for example.

Bulgrim

[Tokoz]

You know...

If you really want the Big Picture, there's only one person who can see all of it, and that's David Bowman himself. You can read my wife's post about our visit to Tulga and read the dev chat from Order to see bits and peices of it.

To that I can add that, from what he said, this was never an idea that was supposed to be "complete" in a year. The Big Picture spans at least 10 years. It see's the gradual development of a world constantly moving forward and never looking back. It's more than just a new expansion every six months changing a world slightly--It's breathing life into a game and giving it spirit and soul, by allowing it to live and change.

You spend 15 minutes talking to the man, and you might be able to catch a month of the Big Picture, maybe...that is if what he's talking about doesn't take you off on a tangeant so far, that an hour later, you realize that you still only have a small part of that month of the Big Picture.

One of the great things about this game is that you don't have to speculate on what that picture is, you can ask and be answered. :)

[LaughingOtter]

/mode personal opinion on

1) Proposed Mithril change will NOT encourage new potential players to subscribe.
2) Proposed Mithril change will NOT encourage former players to return.
3) Proposed Crafting change will NOT encourage trial players to convert to actual paying subscriptions.

/mode personal opinion off

When you drive off your potential income then it is even more important to retain those few customers you DO have that ARE giving you money.

New players will not be doing mithril until long after the change is made.
Returning players may or may not care about the mithril change
The proposed crafting change may in fact appeal to new players - we won't know until we see the entire scope of the proposal.

The overwhelming majority of the changes made in the past six months have all been for the good. Some of the changes make things harder, many make things easier or better. Resource cost reductions for decorative elements on plots. Disk porting. Dragons being able to use anvils. Lower bulk for construction resources. Better armor for dragons, and better healing. The mithril change is a small thing that won't make a difference in the lives of new players forseveral months at least.

Yourattacks and ceaseless rantings make a difference to new players *now*. If you want to see thechanges and improvements you endlessly demand, perhaps you should stop trying to drive off the new players that *do* want to try the game out.

[Seranthor]

Senkeleron,

Are you even remotely suggesting that Confectioners are NOT entitled to have the rest of their TIER 3 forms?, are you even remotely suggesting they are NOT entitled to their Expert food forms?, Mind you before you answer you should find me at least ONE other class that is missing them, THEN answer the question.

Personally, I dont give a rat's bazoo about the mithril change, I will never again EVER have a need to smelt another mithril bar, nor will I suffer at all with the proposed crafting change. But the causes I take up usually have no bearing on what I can or can not do in the game, its about the general health of the game.

I await your determination of whether you feel that confectioners should have to sit in the back of the bus in perpetuity or not.

[Seranthor]

Klaus,

Maybe you enjoy the dwindling populations, maybe you enjoy the stream of your friends that get frustrated and leave, maybe you enjoy seeing thing changed that make no sense, maybe you enjoy seeing things that DO attrract players altered severly.

Maybe you enjoy the status quo and the current march toward another bankruptcy. I dont. However, if it is your contention that my voice alone is causing the downward spiral then you and those like you are sadly mistaken, if anything its those that see things they know to be wrong and do nothing, and the more and more you and the others of your ilk continue to attack and attempt to belittle those that ARE willing to have a pair and sound off against the changes then maybe you deserve to get the product (or lack thereof) that you want. For my remaining time in this paid beta I WILL continue to speak against things that appear to me to be ill-advised, and ill-conceived and should the fates forbid that some of these changes do become live I will assure you now and here that I will promulgate legal ways to circumvent them.

'Nuf Said,

Good Day sir.

[Senkeleron Fell]

Senkeleron,

Are you even remotely suggesting that Confectioners are NOT entitled to have the rest of their TIER 3 forms?, are you even remotely suggesting they are NOT entitled to their Expert food forms?, Mind you before you answer you should find me at least ONE other class that is missing them, THEN answer the question.

Personally, I dont give a rat's bazoo about the mithril change, I will never again EVER have a need to smelt another mithril bar, nor will I suffer at all with the proposed crafting change. But the causes I take up usually have no bearing on what I can or can not do in the game, its about the general health of the game.

I await your determination of whether you feel that confectioners should have to sit in the back of the bus in perpetuity or not.

I am not suggesting any such thing, in fact my highest craft is Confectioner so I am just as interested in having the class finished as you are. But you gave a bunch of reasons why the mithril/crafting changes would NOT do this or that, and I thought I would point out that fixing Confectioner would NOT do those things either. You seem to feel that those were important reasons not to make the changes, but they are really irrelevant, otherwise the same could be said for the Confectioner fixes.

[Jayne]

I believe subscriber total is higher then it ever has been. So were gaining more then were losing.

Jayne