DEFINE THE GAME!

[Theolaerynn]

There have been some incredibly stereotypical comments, something I believe is very counterproductive. A problem should be solved by identifying facts, identifying solutions, and implementing those solutions. It should not involve rumor, unfounded tradition, or voodoo. If it isn't quantifiable fact then it probably isn't useful, because it is hard to get metrics on fixes based on things you cannot messure.

For instance, the gals where I live do not fit into any one mold. I know a very large number of women who play all kinds of games, rock climb, play all kinds of sports, raise families, knit, landscape, decorate, and basically break every female stereotype I have ever seen. Some are high profile business women, some are home makers, some are convenience store clerks, lawyers, accountants, photographers, programmers. Some of them do actually like to play Sims, but every one of them that I know that likes Sims also likes FPS. My wife plays The Sims, RTS games, FPS games, and when she gets on here she wants to take her level 100 healer out hunting. If you try to apply game modifications to appeal to the stereotypical gal, chances are the women that I know will be indifferent to them at best.

Stereotypes give false impressions and lead to bad design decisions. They have no place here.

[Justa Mirage]

Actually they do have a point here.... there are many that have seen HZ being played, either on my machine, or through Fraps Videos I make and edit to show the gameplay. My friend who is an avid dragon fan looked at it and said she would play it, only to be able to make fairy and dragon characters to run around with, who cared about the fighting or the crafting..... she just wanted to create a character.

Her concern was that she wouldn't let her grand-daughter play the City of Heroes game, (she loved creating superheroes and running around in her tights) but was appauled at the graphic violence her 11 year old was being subjected to.

I showed her that all of the creatures were either undead, or monsters. There is no real red blood spurting out of characters when they are hit, and the monsters don't show blood being damaged as well. All the bad guys are monsters or undead human (biped) creatures, so there isn't really any "killing" of other "people"

Some people have an actual care for what their children play on the computers, and for Horizons, this holds true.

[Theolaerynn]

While I cannot quantify all the things that make a game enjoyable for me, I can give an example of when I know I have a game I will play for years.

I am fortunate enough to work in a software development company that understands the value of letting employees blow off some steam, and alow us to play Team Fortress Classic across the company network during our lunch hour. Our work machines are your standard corporate Dell machines (read, crap), complete with integrated Intel graphics and the whole bit. With this hardware limitation, 8 year old TFC (ported from Quake 1 to the Half Life engine, for those that don't know) is just the ticket for us. Low machine requirements, and fun as hell [:D]

So here we are, playing team-based capture the flag and fraggin the hell out of each other, having a good time. But you know what makes it even better? We stop 10 minutes before the lunch hour is over, snag a meeting room, and proceed to laugh about all the kills and deaths we have had.

"ARRG!! You built a Sentry Gun on our Sniper Deck!!"
"HA!! I saw you feign death and knew you were a Spy, so I ran over and stood on you so you couldn't get up while I shot you with the nail gun[6]"
"I was running for your flag all happy because I managed to sneak into your base, when I saw a laser sight dot on my face and though, uh oh, this can't be good..."
"DUDE!! Where the hell were you hiding?!? Every time I went looking for you I got shot! Finally Chris managed to chuck an EMP grenade in your general area and got lucky"

In short, the game that provides enough excitement and surprises that you are talking about it in RL, on the boards, or wherever else outside of the game, that is a succesful game. That is the one that I want to play, one that I wouldn't mind paying a monthly fee for.

It doesn't have to be dynamic, although that helps. It just has to have some excitement. Sure, there is funny stuff like 12's affinity for falling into holes he has to recall out of, but remember that first time you turned a corner and found yourself face to face with The Avatar of Pain? Bet ya talked about that at least once outside of the game [6]

The Outpost seems to be generating a bit of talk too, we need more stuff like that. WM spawned raids are bonus, as long as it isn't the same old thing. Mix it up with some role play, give us something to talk about outside of the game. If you do that and keep doing it, I bet we will keep paying to experience it. I know my wife and I sure will.

[Theolaerynn]

Actually they do have a point here.... there are many that have seen HZ being played, either on my machine, or through Fraps Videos I make and edit to show the gameplay. My friend who is an avid dragon fan looked at it and said she would play it, only to be able to make fairy and dragon characters to run around with, who cared about the fighting or the crafting..... she just wanted to create a character.

Assuming this was in response to me, I was not trying to say there were not folks out there that happen to fit a given stereotype. That is how they start, after all.

But how many ditsy blonds do you actually know? I know one, but the rest are far from it. If I was paying for marketing to target blonds, going after the ditsy blond category would not be the way to go.

On the other hand, my wife is very keyed into the way her character looks, and a large factor in her continued patronage of Horizons is because she loves the way her Dryad looks. Bonus when we get her invisible armor. However, if there weren't the fast-paced seat-of-your-pants combat that she and I can drum up, I am not sure she would stay either. It's a package deal. Gotta look pretty, gotta be exciting. Not your stereotypical Sims player.

She and I went out and duoed some of the Outpost critters, and had a blast! Ended up fighting the AoP modeled guy, can't recall the name, but unfortunately he brought 3 clerics. In the end, we ended up getting half the outpost killed and had to run. But before we ran in to him we did quite well, and had a hell of a good time[:D] Some tough critters out there, especially when you don't use hoard...

[imported_Leannae]

She and I went out and duoed some of the Outpost critters, and had a blast! Ended up fighting the AoP modeled guy, can't recall the name, but unfortunately he brought 3 clerics. In the end, we ended up getting half the outpost killed and had to run. But before we ran in to him we did quite well, and had a hell of a good time[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-2.gif[/img] Some tough critters out there, especially when you don't use hoard...

Just your regular everyday typical night on the town eh? [;)] A couple of gruok burgers, a few speed potions for the road and head out to the outpost...

BUT you have to head OUT to the Outpost. Where is the war?

Shouldn't they come to us..... If we're at war.
Shouldn't there be someelement of surprise..... If we're at war.
Shouldn't there be something morebesides build, grind, or run OUT to the enemy.... If we're at war.

Where is the enemy? Oh! Well, you portal to point A, then portalto point B. Head west, to##.#N by ##.#Wand there you are. There no need to even recon them, they are just sitting and waiting! [8-)]

[PJ]

The outpost mobs were a nice addition because they were a.) challenging b.) at least semi intelligent c.) good for groups, and d.) had some quests (purpose) associated. and e.) something new/different.

But they aren't a war. This outpost probably took weeks of work. Over 3 days of playing I'd fought all the mobs to exhaustion and helped build the outpost, 2 days of light playing finished all the quests. And now its just another mob spawn. They can't be pushed back, or defeated event temporarily. If nobody goes to the outpost for a week, they won't overrun the yew and marble fields, or threaten harro. The aren't a danger to anybody, except maybe some lowbies on their way to get pl'd at purple flies.

[Venge]

Exactly. I have not played a lot of MMO's maybe a halfdozen over as many years. But still IMO reasons for fighting can be boiled down to 2 things:

1.they attack you and you defend
2. They have loot that you want.

EQ keeps going for the second one. The have awesome god loot that we want. I think it happens to be fun while going for it too. Horizons now has loot but nothing that makes me want to go out of the way to find it.

Horizons was built on the premise of the first. There is a war, you must kill them cause if you don't they are going to smash you. Fine great, gives me a reason to reach the next level.

Now the war isn't on. Why should I reach the next level -- to be more uber, for what? Not to get the loot and not to fight an enemy that does nothing for my character or the country.

I have just recently resubbed wanting a game that lets me be anything and do anything. Horizons does this, but sooner or later I'm going to need a reason for doing it.

Venge Sunsoar

[Guaran]

I like go-karts

[Bori Grimbattle]

The following is my opinion and not necessarily that of Bori,Sinistre or Adramaleck.........


That aside, to me the "Game" started to fall off when the new mob spawn system was introduced in an effort to lower lag. Prior to, you could head out on a hunt and be aware of what you were getting into. Now, it is go to a area and hope you are not swarmed when everything finally spawns in. That was the beginning. This may sound contadictory to my later statements but to me it was the beginning. (predictability and awareness are not necessariliy the same thing)

Since then we have had problems with the disappearing mobs, bugged anchors, and other related issues which in turn caused the removal of much of that sort of content. Couple that in with fewer to no events, fewer people playing and and the general lack of purpose it has become more of a "Job" then a "Game" to log in.

When I do get the chance lately to log in I have more of a "Game" if I am involved in some form of roleplay then I do actually crafting or adventuring. The latter two aspects of Horizons are more a mindless waste of time then actual enjoyment in a gaming viewpoint. I chalk this up to the general lack of Purpose and raison d'etre!

It is not a game if you know exactly where to find a certain MoB, exactly what you can expect to get off that MoB when you kill it, exactly what you will get for a result from any craft recipe and so forth. There is a need, in my view, for some form of unpredictability. Some random form of chance be it in adventuring or crafting that will put excitement back into Horizons and make it a "Game" once more. The main source of excitement in any mmorpg is that first visit to something "unknown". There is little of that "unknown" factor in Horizons which dratically lowers the fun factor.

New players in the game still get that "unknown" factor but there is nothing for the older players to give them that same sense of excitement.

To fix this they first need more content, newer events. However, due to all the backlog in work TG has this may not be feasible at this time. In the interim, I would suggest they add some random factor in both adventuring and crafting that will give a chance of excitement to those that can no longer find it. Whether this is done through rare loot drops (totally random) for adventurers or a random extra tech added to crafted items for the crafters. Anything will work as long as it os not PREDICATABLE! The quickest way to boredom is knowing exactly what is going to happen in a given situation. As long as I have the skill, my crafting never fails. I can either make it or I cannot. Hunting? Where do I find emerald golems? Peridots? Amethyst? Slate? Mithril? We all know exactly where.

I am rambling so will end now but to "Define the Game" as it is now is ho-hum predicatability. To define it as I want to see it is "whats around that next corner in the road?"

[Halgar]

Yeah, what they said. ^

Is this a petition? Like, every one sign there name, write a little comment and send it to TG. lol

......But yeah, the reason I stopped playing UO was because there was no more real sense of adventure. I did everything I wanted to do with my chars, I had enough money to buy anything in game i wanted, I could kill just about every monster in the game (with a little help *community* lol). I was never really into PvP so that wasn't much of an attraction for me. After you get to a certain level, all you're doing is waiting for the next expansion/add on (which you have to pay another 29.95 for, plus the monthly sub. fee). I was pretty depressed and ready to find another game to explore and discover, rekindle my sense of adventure. So i'm on Stratics.com looking at UO stuff and see an eye catching promo for Horizons. It mentioned somthing about changing the world of Horizons and leave your mark. I looked at the web sight (which hasen't changed much) and read up on the concept and then proceeded straight to the local Game Stop, bought the game and fell in love with it.

So here we are about a year and a half later and the things that drew me to this gamehave either gone the way of the dodo or are "in the works". So yes, I totally concur, BRING ON THE WAR! Let us change your world and leave our mark!

[Crazyfingers]

[Y]

How bout it Mr Bowman?

I'm sure your head is about ready to explode. Let it out!

This is not a bait. I truely want to know?

Are you guys just completely wore out, burnt out, and ready to cash out?

Whats going on?

How can we the community of Istaira help?


NimK

[imported_Leannae]

Silence is deafening, ya know? Over on the AC2 forums, they called for weeks for some type of dev response on the state of the game and future. They just got told their beloved game is shutting down end of the year. It was the first dev response in almost 2 weeks (from what I gathered reading their forums)

Makes you wonder, are we next?

On a side note, I got a chuckle out of the post that blamed DB for AC2's demise, seems he worked on that project and someone said he had "the touch" [:P]

[Crazyfingers]

David Bowman and David Allen before him was onto something.

I started playing MMO in 97-98? Ultima Online devoured 2 years of my life. Was fascinated by it. I lived it, but soon realized I had to slow down on it. Because of personal responsibilities, gaming 8 hours a day wasnt an option. I kept playing UO for a few more years off and on but eventually couldnt compete anymore because of high speed internet. Mycity didnt have it.Plus they added trammel or something like that just changed everything to me. After that I tried a number of different MMO's but they just didnt feed the jones UO did. Decided wasnt going to play another ******** MMO that was only rewarding if I played 8 hours a day.

Was looking for a game that I could log into, learn the game in a couple months. Train my character to enjoy the endgameand log in a couple an hours a night and have fun.

Then I started reading about Horizons! These guys were on the same page as I was! A game similar to UO with better graphics, better crafting, dragons and a WAR! Train your character to participate in a WAR! Do whatever you wanted in the game. Treasure hunt, craft, join a guild, roleplay, do quests, just sit back and chat. But when the Augendell Horn Blew the whole community would rally together to defend Istaria! I thought wow cool, can spend a few months learning the game maybe spending to much time playing, but eventually have a toon that I could log in a few hours a night and help in the WAR.

I waited 6 months after Horizons went live. Didnt really here much good about it, but had allready bought the game 4 months before. So said what the heck. Fired it up and had a full month of hell. Technical problems that almost drove me insane. But finally figured them out and began my quest to become a great mage and spellcrafter to help against the WA.

Guess what.

Im ready

NimK

[Crazyfingers]

[8-)]

[imported_Leannae]

You know, I'd accept a canned response of...

"It's in the works for the future" right about now...

No acknowledgement to your PAYING customers is counter productive.

[Crazyfingers]

Can someone please explain why David Bowman will not respond to this?

Why are we playing? What is the objective? Do you have a plan to put one in?

How can you expect fans to just wonder around aimlessly?

At some point in time, you must Define the Game. After the performance issues are out of the way, more will realize this.

If the designer of the game cannot Define it, than maybe he should be fired?

Theres dozens of posts from players of all different playstyles that have defined it. All very similar in sound.

Can a dev define it?

What are we supposed to be doing?

NimKhazad

[Crazyfingers]

Hmmm is giving this thread a bad rating your answer?

NimKhazad

[Phillip]

you'll prob get some cheesed up answer, if that, follow by the masses of thank you's smoochies and we love the devs we love the devs we...

not a definition but simply from a gamer's perspective on the concept of war in HZ:

this game is the product that's been influenced by the masses of wussified havenot rejects from other MMOs, and made by devs easily misled. if you been around since beta you will know what i'm talking about. the masses believed this game will be amazing for the player-made economy and concept of such will draw many. those like myself believe it would bedetrimental to make things not lucrative enoughfor the bulk of MMORPGers. the game model is pretty much based on what these masses wanted,the imbalance that sent most adventuring types packing early.

the basis of adv gear made solely by crafters was a huge mistake. adv types do not mind mingling with crafters. they do mind total dependancy. myself, i love the concept of having different types of players in the mix from advs, craft, both, RPers, and so on. the thought of paying someone to build on my plot, or even make my gear is essential, acceptable. the flaw is there wasn't much in terms of excitement on drops, or much goods to add onto the crafted made gear (crystals suck so don't even mention it).

if you want that war you will need players who possess the state of mind to bringit to fruition. the warring, no holds bar sort of players. most are gone. most are gone after a few months of HZ. they are gone because after an epic battle, they each got 24 DPs from lag, 16cp and 4 logs from a WA Lieutenant, 12cp and 5 Kenaf from a mobboss. they are gone because they were totally dependant on crafters, who constantly cry foul everytime the advs ask for loot from the devs. they are gone because the masses were complaining about these sieges on towns and boo hoo they can't build on their plots. they are gone because of the rejects constantly swinging the anti uber, antielitist, anti camping, that this is a community, crafting game mantra. they have gone to where a real war exists, and surrounded by those who can bare it.

my first WA battle, i was asked to leave the area by Juggernaut (level 79) and co., roughlyin the 50s. i was asked to leavedue to being low level (15). those like meweren't helping, we were causing lag. i left. i left because i can andit didn't take a genius to understand the asking. the rest didn't leave, but instead out come the "i paid 12$ a month too blah blah". community? doh.

3 weeks later i was level 65, and asked by Jug to fighting at every major battles. i wanted to fight, so i went and earned it, casual gamer and all. it doesn't make me all that by any means, it's just a basis of how a true warrior thinks. i wanted to be a defender. now i am. now i find myself asking noobs to leave. doh.

now i fight the lag. now i fight to liberate cities, DPs from Gorto of Aug to that big bad wolf by Dali, geting logs and Kenaf for my troubles. lag through liberating Feladan (and being dubbed as "griefer" for releasing the plague), Satyrs (dubbed as uber elitist for refusing to babysit noobs and not crafting), Dryads(dubbed as camper) etc...community? doh. nerfs in between. more friends lost. doh.

by the end of the Dryad event, most adventurers are gone. post merge we saw plenty of crafters who left because of the masses of mobs guarding resources and omg, they aren't the t2 mobs guarding t4 resources anymore! doh.

introduction of anchors we seen more crafters left cuz omg we can't craft we can't craft what's this WA war thing? doh.

everyone and their grannies too busy packing their vaults and paying for forms/techs out the ying yang due to their own stupidity then influenced the easily misled devs to drop those by the buckets. doh.

by now pretty much 99.9% of your warring types are gone, and you want your war? lag is still nasty, and you want your war? people still up in arms at the mere suggestion of destruction on structures and you want you war? no world model still and you want your war? mob using abilities and buffs for no reason whacking a mole and you want your war? can your so called community handle a war? can the devs with such little resources give you a war?

you don't get a real war. you get a few invasions now and then where mobs appear all the sudden, rez/buff each other, you lag to hellthey walk through walls fps in decimals and the only thing in your mind isdammit we need a new engine!

when it's all over you go back to your community, or what's left of it.

doh.

[Crazyfingers]

Phillip, I understand completely what you are saying. I may not agree with some of it (crystals rock!) but your posts are genuine. I started this thread to find out exactly what the community is waiting around for. Was it a war? Introducing PvP? Adding 20 more levels of Grind? Treasure hunting? Dungeon crawls?

If a simple definition was stated, even the most jaded player could make a choice.

The definition sounds good, I will give them time and stick around for it.
or
Nah the vision stinks, I might as well move on, quit griping and chalk it up as another gaming experience. No big deal.

Instead David Bowman ignores it. Divides the community and leaves everyone in limbo.

Define the game Mr Bowman, you may be surprised.

NimKhazad

[Phillip]

"Was it a war?"

the only sense of war felt in Istaria that could bring all for the cause are events like Feladan, Satyr, Dryads and so on. to break it downthey areprojects, with worker ants and soldier ants working together for the...queen. yes, the Queen. her name is Mia. y'all know who she is right? that nifty chick in armor. Mia stands for Missing In Action. she represents the 80% we were to get at launch hehe. doh.

that's another war though. god save the queen.