Roleplay and the Hazards Involved

[Phillip]

isn't it possible to have all sorts of people in an alternate universe? or should there only be the good ones, or say, we all shall get along types? some form of utopia maybe? there's nothing profound about such i don't think. it takes all kinds.

negativity is about perception. for instance my friend Khao, who RP a fiend to the core. he is a fiend. the best RP fiend there is. he once asked this female fiend why she's so nice to everyone. she said that's her nature. she likes people and love to help out. Khao said what happened to you? he thought maybe she was abandoned and raised by some treehugging reject gnomes or something...

she got so pissed. told him she pays 12$ a month to play however she wants. told him to f*** off etc, then put him on /ignore.

hehe [:|] doh.

i think he got a thing for her too hahaha

so who's a negative character here, roleplaying-wise?

how many nice fiends do you know on a RP server? i know many. what's wrong with that picture?


that's like a dragon thatlive to craft and pal around with gnomes...[:|]

it isn't neccessarily to RP the old English tongue in a sense, or dialogue but rather about the sensitivity behind signing on an RP server and absolutely senseless about it, to put not even the slightest of effort that is splendidly effortless to begin with. somehow it's more profound to give your own character a storyline by raceand carry on accordingly, rather than theever so bright "i pay 12$ toooooo..."

well here's another 12$ for a brain. buy onethat says:"FREE Persona - A 50$ Value!" Available at your local Brainsmart and Super Brainsmart stores.

i experienced better RP in AC1 with a guild that got 3 Aragorns, 2 Legolas (es), Britney Spears, Chow yun Fat and Cable Guy. they can handle it.

[Pharcellus]

Well, part of the blame is on AE/TG for not providing deep/detailed social lore for the races. Maybe they wanted it that way, so people who wanted to play a carebear Fiend, a nasty, evil Gnome, an extremely quick and lithe Half-Giant, or a plodding, dull Saris could.

[imported_Leannae]

that's like a dragon thatlive to craft and pal around with gnomes...[img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-8.gif[/img]

Hey! Don't pick on Ebel [:P] He did that, mainly because his first character was a gnome.

i experienced better RP in AC1 with a guild that got 3 Aragorns, 2 Legolas (es), Britney Spears, Chow yun Fat and Cable Guy. they can handle it.

*gasp* That was YOUR guild?

What I find the most comical is the majority of those who complain are complaining for someone else. Rarely does the person who's involved in the RP get upset because they usually can tell that it's all good. It's the onlookers who get all ruffled over it. For example, I play 7 different characters. I got a helluva laugh one day when a "well meaning friend" told me in a /tell that my fiend hated my elf. Perception of the RP between them had people thinking they were 2 entirely different people and my fiend truly disliked me! [H] Now THAT was funny. When I explained that I was both, boy was their face red.

The same thing happened once to Bori. He had Sinistre in earlier that day when another "well meaning friend" caught him online as Bori and proceeded to tell him how Sinistre caused this whole rukus by cussing people out, yelling and screaming, etc... When Bori told him, "I know that's not true because I am Sinistre" the quick response was. "er.. ah.. well I could be wrong."

So, who is guilty in cases like that? The person who is roleplaying or the person who is trying to stir up trouble?

Yes, perception plays a huge part in people assuming you are or are not roleplaying. Just another classic case of the hazards of roleplay.

[Bori Grimbattle]

Hmmm. Interesting thread this has developed into.
Let me add a bit more insight into my methods.

If my character picks up on a cue whether it is in marketplace, in Aug or wherever he will make a reponse. Take for example if Bori overheard a Dragon talking about eating Gnomes, he will verbally attack that dragon. After all Gnomes are the lost cousins of the Dwarves. Now, if that Dragon answers back, then the battle is joined. So we have the insult to the Dwarf, the dropping of the gauntlet by the Dwarf and the acceptance of the duel by the dragon.

Now, in physical rp it is easier to sense what the other person is doing or feeling. With that I agree. However, if you choose to pick up that gauntlet in an mmorpg, on a role play server, do not expect any mercy from me. That is where the good role players are weeded out from the chaff. Good role players will know all the lore they can read about the other race (in game Lore and not AD&D or Otherworld Lore) and use that information to their advantage.

I have found by experiance that people will play along until they find themselves trapped and losing the battle of wits. It is when they start to lose that they will get angry and use ooc means and excuses to get even. Comments such as "I have had a bad day at work", "the phone is ringing" "I have a headache", do not belong in the game. They are otherworld happenings. Next thing that will happen in these cases is bystanders,friends of the person on the losing end, will jump in to defend, usually again with ooc comments.

Now this tells me that those people are not mature enough to understand the differences between OOC and roleplay. Not being able to accept a loss gracefully is a sign of that immaturity.

I have lost many a verbal spar with others but I do not get "angry" or "upset" (although if I ever return I will get back at you Sephiranoth!) I have also won quite a few and Ssilmath is still trying to figure out a way to gut Sinistre without being encased in a block of ice.

Now, using game mechanics as a crutch and calling it roleplay such as in Dilgar the Dagger case, is griefing and that is when the game provider (Tulga in this case) has to step in. However, using in game Lore against a person is not. As long as your character is capable of doing something (dragons cannot cast ice shackles) and the Lore behind him supports his actions (Dwarves do distrust all races other then Gnomes due to the failure of the other races to support them at Aughundell) then everything is fair game. If I can back you into a corner, with no way out then I have won the battle, fair and square.

What irks me is when the player in the losing position, has to rely on OOC comments, excuses, or well meaning friends sending me OOC tells calling me down to extricate themselves from the hole they backed into. It is a roleplay server and as long as it is within the rules, it is game.

After all, it takes two to Tango and if your dancing partner happens to stomp on your toes do not come crying to me for support. You were the one that decided to dance.

[imported_Leannae]

i once got reported for making fun of this guy who wore pink and GREEN cargo gear. basically he wanted me to be more useful by dedicating my time to be a runner for some project. i told him i don't do that sort of thing. he said a couple things then started telling me that HZ isn't for uber types, but a craftcentric community roleplayinggame etc. he told me to go back to EQ hehe. wow, amazing RP. you would have been proud haha [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-8.gif[/img]

Blah, was going to edit my post but figured I'd just ammend by adding a new one.

See, the problem is HZIS for the uber types. They designed it that way by giving us multiclass abilities, crossover abilities and subclass skill removal. Either people fail to see that or just don't want to. Horizon's is for the uber I-can-do-it-all type adventurer.

Khao did play a good fiend, not the best but I'm bias too. [:P]

[imported_Ssilmath]

I have also won quite a few and Ssilmath is still trying to figure out a way to gut Sinistre without being encased in a block of ice.


Hehe, I'll figure it out eventually [:P]

Thing is, even when Ssil and Sinistre were verbally sparring (And Ssil losing), or when Bori would mess with Ssil, both people were having a great time, and fully in character, but then a lot of other people would step in and yell at Sinistre for being mean, or at me for hating mammals (I'd snap at mammals trying to help me, but hey, it's in Ssil's character)...

So really, the people that were breaking RP and acting out of line were the others who were just watching [:|] And now, only a few people RP anywhere anymore...it's sad...the non roleplayers chased the roleplayers away from a roleplaying server cause it didn't fit their play style...There's a word for that...

Irony

[Phillip]

not sure if we need TG to give us the how to.

Khao, Kodock and myself wanted to RP and add a sense of drama to Istaria, and by god we needed some. you can play opposites and get along. you can play the negative character and get along. you can be a racist, chauvinisticpig or a primadona and get along.

for instance, Kodockwas a goodie happy going Saris treehugging paladin, Khao was an evil Bloodmage fiend, and i was both. us humans got psychological issues you know...we're ok dammit.

Kodock says "we must free the Satyr race, they have long suffered!!".Khao says "then we'll enslave them and make them build our plots!", i say "hey did you see that redhead in NR? soawesome...whoa wait, did i just say something...?"

add to the mix was Sphal the compassionategoodie twoshoes politically correct (Istarian version) Saris who wouldslap us around, and Raiine always loses his pants at the Satyr fights.

it was fun, all RP, effortless.

i remember at one of the Guild Council meeting when Kodock went up there and said he will muster all efforts to free Feladan. i fell asleep. Khao went up and said that we should work on *Substantiator #6 located in Selen. Raiine got up and asked if anyone seen his pants [:|]

simple, isn't it?

i don't know. a lot of people say i'm making them play on my terms. that is not true because the level of difficulty just isn't there. it's like asking a deadhorse to play a deadhorse, you know.

i walk up to a deadhorse and say "hey you, play deadhorse!" and there it is. wow.

a deadhorse in HZ is like a monkey in a leotard. but hey he paid 12$ so...

doh.

*Substantiator #6 does not exist. it's a name Khao gave his plot. believe it or not, some work was done on it the next day. to this day we still don't know who was responsible.

[imported_Leannae]

We used to have some great roleplay sessions.

Mist and Allon burned down our guildhouse. Well, Allon really because he was justa hatchling at the time and lacked control of his fire breath.

Bori spent 2 days hiding from Ssil when he put the dead fish in his backpack. Well, not really hiding more like dodging him and tormenting him.

The game of spirals Sephiranoth, Bori and I played which all I can say is, it ain't over until the fat gnome sings and I ain'ta singing yet.

Even the occasional real PvWM that occured when Amadan would log in and kill Bori just because. They had an ongoing war since the satyr mines but even recieving death points Bori never took offense and 8-16 hours of DP's hurt a helluvalot more than a few words.

But then the unthinkable happened. People who weren't even involved complained. Would you believea player actually had the nerve to whine to Amadan thathe was being mean to Bori and Bori should report him! It took Bori some time to explain to the player that he wasn't upset, it was all good and he was actually enjoying the rift.

The player wasn't involved, he wasn't injured, he wasn't even called a name but he stepped in because HE didn't think it was right and HE was offended.

So what's next? Carebear protests over the arena because it's not right to go in gutting each other? [8-)]

[Pharcellus]

Game staff doing stuff, even when the participants consent, which lives in that grey area is generally a bad idea.

For example, in another game I managed, admins had the capability to take out ships they had no access to otherwise and "show off" to the players. Even when it was just to excite the noobs, we still had to put the kibosh on it because the potential for abuse and complaining was just too great.

Thus, even though no real harm was done, it still causes problems at times, and is usually best avoided, as a general policy.

[imported_Leannae]

Dev vs player wasn't the point though. What was and isthe pointare the people who aren't even involved taking offense to roleplay that doesn't include them.

When the people who are roleplaying understand that it's roleplay and are enjoying their immersion, who are you (not you as finger pointing but you in general) to judge what's offensive, what crosses the lines or any of that?

Since when did we become judge and jury? Suddenly it'swrong to play an obnoxious or arrogant character but it's perfectly tell someone personally via /tell or forum, they are an arse?

You can't say these things to my character but I can say these things to you personally?

Seems alittle twisted to me.

[Pharcellus]

Well, I am not arguing that point, per se.

No, players shouldn't take in-play stuff out-of-play any more than they should take out-of-play stuff in-play. My point is that the staff have to be careful not to impact the game and players adversely.

Someone observing the extra attention given to Bori by Amadan may feel unfairly slighted. Perhaps it may be considered jealousy, but the point is, as a game official, it is just a can of worms that probably should be avoided.

[Phillip]

that is a good point.

i think in a sense it is ok to play with the devs. remember that killer cow in Aug on April Fools? that was fun. the cow went right for me because of my comment. i got beat up [:|]

remember Ghen, the self proclaimed RP extraordinaire? Ghen e-mailed a WM to log in and give him the disease so he can experience it, right after we got everything under control.the WM did it, too[:|]

who exactly do you RP to want to get a disease?

[imported_Denrath]

But then the unthinkable happened. People who weren't even involved complained. Would you believea player actually had the nerve to whine to Amadan thathe was being mean to Bori and Bori should report him! It took Bori some time to explain to the player that he wasn't upset, it was all good and he was actually enjoying the rift.

The player wasn't involved, he wasn't injured, he wasn't even called a name but he stepped in because HE didn't think it was right and HE was offended.

So what's next? Carebear protests over the arena because it's not right to go in gutting each other? [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-43.gif[/img]

*Drools over the thoughts of the Arena*

Anyways, there is a lot of the "I am going to be offended for you" mentality running around in the real world, so it doesnt surprise me that it made it here. Should it be here? No, people should just butt out of one anothers business and let people deal with things in the way they feel they should.

For a good example on this, take the guy who wanted "under God" removed from the Pledge of Allegience in the US. His daughter (the one it was effecting) didnt care if it was there, but he decided to be offended for her. That is just one of the more prominant examples I can think of at the moment.

[imported_Leannae]

I agree with Phillip. What's wrong with a dev logging in and connecting with players? It wasn't just Bori, Amadan spread it around to avoid jealousy. Several people got hit with the Amadan curse. Shytani used to do the same and log in to play with the players of her world. It gave us a feeling of connection to AE then.

The live events that occur now are WM intervention and controlled, so that's wrong?After 2 years, they know who can takea joke and who can't so they pick on those they know won't take offense. They aren't blind and do read the forums. If someone whines that so-an-so is offensive or abusive, the dev isn't going to "play" with that person.

Oh and Phillip, you got gored because you called the evil cow a Biotch. [:P] I remember that day. Gale even logged in to play with us, and everyone had a blast.

But that doesn't happen anymore. Eventhe devsbecame gun shy because of the "well meaning friends" who step in and complained FOR others.

******** I miss those days. Roleplay occured in person and in channel so everyone could feel involved. But you can't do that anymore. There are just too many fragile people who dictate what's correct and what isn't by THEIR standards.

Right after merge, we had an ongoing saga to break the boredom while waiting for the first plots auction. Several players were involved; Finn, Sinistre, Shaliwyn, Jenni, Nyla,Zay, quite afew others who are long gone. Then one day a "well meaning friend" decided it was offensive and began a thread on Tazoon. They blasted the hell out of us, calling us the circle jerks, but Tulga didn't have a problem with it because it WAS roleplay. Pressure from the masses caused us to stop even though Zideon and Amadan saw nothing whatsoever wrong with roleplay because they KNEW it was just that.

Ssilmath is correct in, the non-roleplayers pushed the roleplayers away. Those whodidn't get it, those who weren't involved, caused many of us to just stop. Even when you know the other personand know they don't take offense, you STILL get people stepping in and telling you, you're being a jerk, arse, etc... because THEY don't understand. I wonder if the same people walk into a restaurant, over hear a couple arguing and step in to tell off one of the parties they are being jerks! I doubt it, so why here?

Why is it alright to hide behind the keyboardhere and preach?

[Phillip]

because they don't get their teeth splattered all over the place, here.

oh yeah, called that cow a biatch hehe.

and got clocked [:|]

[imported_Leannae]

because they don't get their teeth splattered all over the place, here.

Which is whyI expect the carebear crowd to start in on the Arena. It's also part of roleplay to hold tournaments and gladiator fights. But, I can see it now..

Player A: Did you see that? Team A had 3 people more than Team B and turned it into a grudge match.

Player B: Yeah, man that's griefing, someone should report those jerks.

Player A: <shouts to team A> You bunch of lousers, you don't fight fair. I'm gonna report you. I didn't like the way your mages blasted those healers before they could save themselves.

You can bet, Player A won't step into the ring because they COULD get their teeth splattered. [;)]

[Phillip]

that's IT man!!

i'm filing a ticket over that cow incident!!!!!!

he hurt mah feelins.

[:|]

[Pharcellus]

You're missing the point of what I am saying, Leannae.

Devs who only log in to play with certain people on a regular basis leads to "in-crowdism". I'm happy that you and Bori and a few others got some time with the devs, but for the rest of the people on the shard who are no less deserving of some fun RP time with the devs, it's really a bad idea.

You are incorrect about Shetani. She did log in, but she kept her interactions reserved for the greater population because she understood this concept well.

No, there's nothing wrong with devs who log in and run events according to a plan which does not cater to any specific group or clique of people, or, if it does, it is one of many which rotate through as many groups/cliques as possible.

It's like the GM of a table-top game, where 90% of his attention is given to 10% of the players at the table, while the rest twiddle their thumbs in boredom and look on.

A perfect, though extreme, example of this was the Darkstaff situation. Thank god that mess is over with.

[imported_Leannae]

You're missing the point of what I am saying, Leannae.

Devs who only log in to play with certain people on a regular basis leads to "in-crowdism". I'm happy that you and Bori and a few others got some time with the devs, but for the rest of the people on the shard who are no less deserving of some fun RP time with the devs, it's really a bad idea.

You are incorrect about Shetani. She did log in, but she kept her interactions reserved for the greater population because she understood this concept well.

No, there's nothing wrong with devs who log in and run events according to a plan which does not cater to any specific group or clique of people, or, if it does, it is one of many which rotate through as many groups/cliques as possible.

It's like the GM of a table-top game, where 90% of his attention is given to 10% of the players at the table, while the rest twiddle their thumbs in boredom and look on.

A perfect, though extreme, example of this was the Darkstaff situation. Thank god that mess is over with.

I think you're missing the point. He didn't just log in for an elite crowd, he logged in and played witheveryone to avoid just that. He stopped when someone got upset because of perceived notions.

The person who got upset was brand new to the world and had no idea what a WM was. Yet he logged into a roleplaying shard and there is no mistake it's marked and complained about roleplay.

Shetani did log into Spirit a few times and actually played with some people. She grouped, hunted and roleplayed with them.

But the point isn't whether a dev logs in and plays, the point is who is to judge? Where is it written that it's your (general use) opinion that becomes the deciding factor as to who is or isn't roleplaying? When did those who do judge win the power of the magic monitor to be able to see that person on the other side and know beyond a shadow of doubt they aren't roleplaying but purposely acting that way?

They don't. Here's a comical example for you. One of the very opinionated people who decided I wasn't roleplaying had a conversation with me as another character. Oh, it was a riot to hear this person go on and on how she doesn't like me-Aribut considered me a friend in this charcter. She had no clue I was bothand told me howrude I was to me! Strangely enough, that's happened more times than not. Me as my dragon was told that me as my gnome was a trouble maker. These comments were all made OOC to me because I was judged to be the person I was playing.

This is right? Not in the least. Do they GET roleplay? Obviously not.

[Pharcellus]

I think you're missing the point. He didn't just log in for an elite crowd, he logged in and played witheveryone to avoid just that. He stopped when someone got upset because of perceived notions.

Then we are completely missing each others' points and probably should end the discussion.

I don't know what Amadan did and did not on Spirit, just what you told me. You told me he logged on just to kill Bori at times. I'm not juding him here, just saying that IF that is all he was doing, then it WAS wrong. Period. I explained why. You can agree or not. I don't really care.

Shetani did log into Spirit a few times and actually played with some people. She grouped, hunted and roleplayed with them.

*shrug* I rarely got to see her at all, even though she was Dawn's WM. It wasn't for lack of trying, either. Maybe she was PLAYING the game as just another player on Spirit, not as a WM.

But the point isn't whether a dev logs in and plays, the point is who is to judge? Where is it written that it's your (general use) opinion that becomes the deciding factor as to who is or isn't roleplaying? When did those who do judge win the power of the magic monitor to be able to see that person on the other side and know beyond a shadow of doubt they aren't roleplaying but purposely acting that way?

MY point IS about what a dev does when they log in and play. That's the problem. Your point is about RP between people and third-party observations/complaints about such. Most of what you are saying I don't disagree with. However, when it comes to staff, I believe that staff should exercise some caution because it CREATES these kinds of problems. ESPECIALLY when there is serious, significant abuse going on (c.f. Darkstaff).

They don't. Here's a comical example for you. One of the very opinionated people who decided I wasn't roleplaying had a conversation with me as another character. Oh, it was a riot to hear this person go on and on how she doesn't like me-Aribut considered me a friend in this charcter. She had no clue I was bothand told me howrude I was to me! Strangely enough, that's happened more times than not. Me as my dragon was told that me as my gnome was a trouble maker. These comments were all made OOC to me because I was judged to be the person I was playing.

Already read this once with the story of someone lying about what Sin said to Bori without realizing they were the same player. Yeah, it is silly and stupid. Completely tangential to what I am talking about.