New dragon crystals?

[imported_Silowyi]

Pasted by Manga earlier on IRC, new dragon crystals perhaps? They require a weapon socket.

http://community.istaria.com/images/temp/tfof.jpg
http://community.istaria.com/images/temp/tpr.jpg

Silowyi

[Guaran]

Nice way to do it.

But I don't see the -5% Delay, -5% Recycle :P

But the delay changes weren't tied to these buffs.

Neat :)

[Razon]

It is nice to see that we will still get the proc. Here is my question though. WHEN will we get the crystal for our faction?

Will we get it at the end of Arop? or 6 months from now?

[Valornyx]

Personally - I think this is a load of !@#$ !!

To have waited so long to become ancient then have them take away our headscales and make us put the same abilities in a claw socket..

I have an old WDL crystal in my claw already and it adds a great deal to my damage.

so for becoming ancient we lose a lot and get +500 capacity and fly a bit higher from what I can see.

I for one plan to do the AROP to get the new abilities and then stop before becoming ancient and having to give up my headscale.

Unless the new dragon breath is absolutely amazing - there is not muchreason to become ancient and good reasons not to.

[Fireclaw]

Nice way to do it.

But I don't see the -5% Delay, -5% Recycle [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

But the delay changes weren't tied to these buffs.

Neat [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

Agreed. But WHERE is the -5% delay and -5% recycle? That haste bonus was more valuable than the proc in my opinion. Also this new crystal better stack with any other crystal we have. If I had to choose between this and my WDL lifesteal crystal I can say for sure that I would never use this new crystal.

[Theolaerynn]

so for becoming ancient we lose a lot and get +500 capacity and fly a bit higher from what I can see.

Actually, we get to fly 200 feet higher than Adults. The new flight ceiling changes give Adults an 1800 foot limit from the baseline (instead of 200 feet above the current ground level), and Ancients will have a 2000 foot limit.

In other words, the 'fly a bit higher' thing is pretty much a PR stunt to make it look like Ancients are actually getting something, when in fact that extra 200 feet is only useful in one or two out-of-the-way places. Most folks probably wont even notice.

ARoP is more of a slap in the face than anything.

[oluviel]

Making it have the haste, the proc, AND making iteither aweapon or armor socket is a nice way to do it. This is just wrong on so many levels...

[Guaran]

I just noticed this is for a weapon socket..

I use a misty, dark garnet weapon crystal in my current claw, which also has t&c V tech.

For these new crystals, I would just use a triple socket so I can keep using the dgwc and misty.

Maybe the -5% delay/recycle can be added to the passive bonus or something.



But, how it will work out, we get the headscale slot back for use with normal teched out t5 scale, so we get back +75 Armor (even trade forancient scale)+25 Strength +25 T&C +25 Primal etc. (Normal techs on t5 headscale), while loosing +25 T&C from a claw, and loosing +50 primal or T&C depending on Faction.so the T&C/primal/stat tech amount totals basically alleven out. This I am OK with.

The innate armor increase is supposed to be overall MORE armor, since the 133% is of total armor, not only the base armor like the headscale works. This is second hand information about the armor working off of total not base, I have not tested this yet on blight. A maxed out dragon currently gets +213 Armor from the headscale, from the +33% Base.

Per dev post the other bonuses for becoming Ancient:

Inate Base Stats Boosts

Flight Height of 2000 max
Power +75
Strength +50
Focus +15

These seem a little low, however no heath increase is a bit rediculous. +100% base hp/level would seem right. Adults should get +50% more hp/level than hatchlings do if you ask me. ~2400 health for a Big beasty dragon, ancient no less, just doesn't make any sense.

Mobs have disproportionately highhp, soley to add difficulty to them. Which I don't really have a problem with, but the hp on a dragon is simply a copy of a biped character template. It just doesn't make sense. I have believed this for a long time and hoped becoming Ancient would finally put this glaring omission behind us.

Overall, changing to ancient and loosing the headscale is a wash it seems.

I DO like the idea of the nice bonuses we got from the headscale being passive. What if someone accidentally deleted or deconned thier headscale? What about when t6 armor comes out? the headscale is equal to a t5 scale basically, - 1 tech slot which was used by the primal rage/Fangs of Fury effects, which is transferred to a claw slot now. The basis and reasoning for those changes all make sense, and I agree with them doing it.

But the bonuses to stats seem kind of pale. We loose the -5% recycle and delay as well.. that completely sucks. The armor boost and the delay modifiers where the best things about the headscale. they are keeping the armor and the effect, but where did the recycle go?


Please re-think the stats. ALOT more hp is deserving of a beast as big mean and ferocious as a Dragon who has achieved ancient-hood.

More Health.

More Strength.

More Power.

All make sense for a Dragon.



>>> Dragon <<< see that word? Think about it for a minute. What images does it conjur up.

[PJ]

Okay let me get this straight:

From the start of the ARoP, to the Finish:

Dragons get:

+200m to their flight heigh max
+75 power
+50 str
+15 focus

133% armor (whether this is base or total is as yet, dunno)
+500 capacity

4 New Abilities

Aerial Sprint
Mez
Rez that removes a death point
Flameburst AOE Flame breath

2 Improved abilities

Drain strike VIII
CoT VIII


1 weapon crystal (see above), although when exactly its obtained is unknown.

Access to new ancient dragon schools for further specialization and biped style quilting. Although specifics unknown, and progress towards completion unknown.


And that's not enough? Okay I can understand that, dragons have been on the short end of the stick compared to multiclassed bipeds. But you know what, dragons have been better then single classed bipeds for awhile now. And dragons continue to keep getting rewards with no penalty to their rating.

These rewards are fine as is. You want more you should be prepared to accept a rating penaly. Hell, you should get at least a 5 level penaly just for these. Whenever ancient schools do come out, I hope you get the opportunities to specialize, quilt, and continue to improve your character similar to a biped with the associated time/cash investments and rating penalty.

[Goriax]

I have always been one to defend TG and say that dragons don't need as much as some have been demanding. I consider the overall benefits start to finish fine IF they follow through. But many of these benefits are only benefits if things not in the game manage to show up soon. Other benefits are not such benefits when you examine them more closely. At least if you have to get all your hoard yourself and don't know any exploits. If using hoard is something to be thought about (and if it isn't why have hoard costs at all?) then that has to be taken into account.

Most importantly, one step of the AROP has the look and feel of a nerf, and one so-called benefit could be a big nerf for all practical purposes.

Many of these benefits (mez and rez)are tempered by the fact that they haveHUGE hoard costs. Many bipeds and twinked dragons still don't seem to understand how daunting a high hoard cost is to a dragon who has to get all his hoard himself. If using hoard was supposed to be no big deal why have a hoard cost at all? And don't expect them toincrease drops to compensate. When I was playing on Blight the last week the hoard drops were worse then on live. I just have a hard time seeing where Iwould want touse a mez which costs 1500 hoard. I tried it out and I agree it's great. But the main use I can see is for managing adds and that just isn't worth 1500 hoard in most situations -- If I can't handle it without the mez I'd just fly away.

Flight ceiling of +200 m means nothing if it doesn't let you access new content which as of now it doesn't. Even 1800m puts you so high you can't see the ground. I like the fact that they changed the flight model,but as of this time, a +200m flight ceiling is nothing to get excited about. It's utility depends 100% on them delivering on additional features in the future. When those features make live THEN the extra flight ceiling will be a benefit. But it isn't now.

I only use sprint to get away from mobs. A fly sprint would only mean something if it let me get away from flying mobs. There are no flying mobs. I wish there WERE flying mobs along with aerial combat. But there aren't andin this case they haven't even made reassuring noises there ever will be. Therefore it isn't exactly anything to get excited over.

The AoE breath weapon has me really worried. If it overwrites my existing flame breath weapon then I consider it a big nerf. My existing flame breath weapon isn't the be all and end all but it's useful with burning embers and I use it in all my fights (often twice in a fight). I'm not going to be paying 500 hoard all the time for ANY ability. If a 500 hoard cost ability overwrites my existing flame breath the effect is to take away something I use all the time and replace it with something I can't use all the time. In short, it's a nerf. Now I don't know if they're going to do that, but considering the way they're going I don't know they AREN'T going to do that either and, judging from the way they're going,the odds are they plan to do that. That has me worried.

I figure that if I don't say something now, by the time I do know it'll be too late to say anything.


So in the end my biggest gripes are the following:

1. The final step looks like it'll be a nerf -- at least short term. Sure you can say that it's more then I had before I started, but for that matter I have more then when my character was born back on release day. Right now the final step looks like a nerf. Before I talk to whoever I talk to I have an ability. Afterwards I do not. Why should I take that final step until I have a crystal in hand? How do I know that crsytal isn't going to be something else which won't show up for 6 months to a year? When that crystal shows up (assuming it's readily available)then taking away the head scale won't be such a nerf (although there's still the loss of haste). Until it shows up, taking away the head scale is a nerf.

2. Many of the benefits rely on things showing up in the game at some unspecified time in the future. Until they show up then they're not benefits. Schools sound great. What are those schools? What are their benefits?Where do I go to join those schools? When they show up they'll be benefits but right now they are not.

3. Many of the other benefits are in the form of abilities with big hoard costs. If you have to get all your hoard yourself you aren't going to be using them much so their actual value is less.

4. One so-called "benefit" could easily turn into a big nerf by replacing a useful non-hoard ability with a far less useful hoard ability.

5. While it's not a power issue, many people are very upset that ancients are now not much bigger then adults and can be easily confused with adults. That hurts.

I'd be a lot happier if they would address these issues BEFORE it goes live. Make the crystal available the same time as the AROP finale; do NOT replace the non-hoard flame breath with the hoard version; slightly raise hoard drops off tier V and higher mobs to compensate for the additional hoard abilities; andraise the size of the ancients some. They don't have to be as big as they were, but they need to be so big that they aren't confused with adults. Some people want to be BIG.

[Guaran]

....And that's not enough? Okay I can understand that, dragons have been on the short end of the stick compared to multiclassed bipeds. But you know what, dragons have been better then single classed bipeds for awhile now. And dragons continue to keep getting rewards with no penalty to their rating.

These rewards are fine as is. You want more you should be prepared to accept a rating penaly. Hell, you should get at least a 5 level penaly just for these. Whenever ancient schools do come out, I hope you get the opportunities to specialize, quilt, and continue to improve your character similar to a biped with the associated time/cash investments and rating penalty.

Dragons != Bipeds. They never have. I've never said they should.

Dragons who have complained in the past (think pre-merger) made valid points, and when comparing to bipeds, only did so as a baseline for a point of reference for entities in Istaria. [At least in my case]

As far as healthpoint increases go, it simply strikes me as common sense. Same for strength and power. Put it like this: who would you expect to bench press more, a Dragon or a Bodybuildier ? Answer seems obvious. how many stabs with a sword will it take to kill a Dragon? How many for the Bodybuilder? Generalization of the point I'm trying to make.

[Khoal]

TG has indicated that there will be some sort of post-ancient progression or advancement. It would sure ease my concerns if a dev would simply explain what is in store for Ancients, because right now, this current"reward" isn't really motivating me to charge ahead into Ancienthood. [:S]

[Manga]

TG has indicated that there will be some sort of post-ancient progression or advancement. It would sure ease my concerns if a dev would simply explain what is in store for Ancients, because right now, this current"reward" isn't really motivating me to charge ahead into Ancienthood. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-7.gif[/img]

I am working on a Dragon Advance page to be release in a few days

[Theolaerynn]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Khoal wrote:TG has indicated that there will be some sort of post-ancient progression or advancement. It would sure ease my concerns if a dev would simply explain what is in store for Ancients, because right now, this current"reward" isn't really motivating me to charge ahead into Ancienthood. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-7.gif[/img]

I am working on a Dragon Advance page to be release in a few days

This is kind of ironic, when you think about it. We are supposed to be happy that 'some day' we will have alternate advancement, and yet it is going to take a few days just to tell us what they plan to do.

Show of hands, how many folks think this will happen within a years time? And how many think Horizons will survive long enough to actually push these schools to Live?

Point blank, they don't have the staff for it.

[oluviel]

well key word is "i am" i'm sure he has other tasks as well. I may not be totally pleased with ancienthood but i am very satisfied with all the dev's commitment. it's much more commitment than i have for it as a fan lol.

[Goriax]

While I'll definately want to see what the devs have to say, PLANS don't exactly get me excited. Who knows when the planned thing will show up. Heh, I've been hearing PLANS for lairs since before release. It was easier to be patient about the lairs because I never had one which was taken away. It'll be harder to be patient here if I proceed to ancient even though the abilities lost aren't nearly as major. That's because I had them and then they were taken away.

Heh, I don't even get to strut around in a huge ancient model now. Just an adult with slightly different proportions. Right now I"m inclined to not proceed past the point where I have to turn in the head scale until there is something actually in the game to proceed to which leaves me no worse off then I was before.

There may be a lot of ALMOST ancients running around soon.

[Leviathan]

Okay let me get this straight:

From the start of the ARoP, to the Finish:

Dragons get:

+200m to their flight heigh max
(not a single dragon cares about this. it is of no benefit)

+75 power
+50 str
(pathetic)

+15 focus
(why even bother?)

133% armor (whether this is base or total is as yet, dunno)
(we don't gain this. it just becomes passive because we lose our headscale)

+500 capacity
(we can now almost carry as much as a gnome!)

4 New Abilities
(all of which you get while you are still adult, except breath which we were PROMISED months ago as adults and without hoard usage. You don't get these upon becoming ancient)

Aerial Sprint
Mez
Rez that removes a death point
Flameburst AOE Flame breath

2 Improved abilities
(Again, you are adult when you get these)

Drain strike VIII
CoT VIII


1 weapon crystal (see above), although when exactly its obtained is unknown.
(We don't gain this, it is just transferred from headscale to socket)


TO SUMMARIZE: the only things we actually gain are as follows...

+500 Capacity (I will admit, this is welcome)
+200 Max flight ceiling (of no use whatsoever)
+75 Power
+50 Strength
+15 Focus (why bother)
AoE Breath (which we were promised as Adults months ago. not as ancient only)

and now we get +250 health. The +200 health for Adult was considered a slap in the maw, so what do you think the response will be to this?

--------------------------------------------------
AncientRewards that should be changed
--------------------------------------------------

Bring back the large Ancient Model -if bipeds have a problem,I can Khutit
Remove stat penalty for Khutit to accommodate this.
Fangs of Fury (innate) - get rid of the crystal (we lose a tech slot)
-5% Delay (innate)
AoE Breath - available to Adult. Large increase for Ancient.
+400 Health (at least double adult bonus)
+200 Strength (after all, we are ALOT bigger. more mass and muscle)
+200 Power (Helians should see same benefit)
Remove the focus boost altogether. - really, what were you thinking?
+400 Armor boost - I thought our scales became tougher as we got older?

[PJ]

Noticed I specified, From the Start of the ARoP, to the finish. Just because you received ARoP rewards during the ARoP instead of after it, doesn't make them not ARoP rewards.

[Fireclaw]

Noticed I specified, From the Start of the ARoP, to the finish. Just because you received ARoP rewards during the ARoP instead of after it, doesn't make them not ARoP rewards.

Thats an invalid comparison. The real question is what incentive does a dragon have to do the final step of ARoP to become ancient? Right now if you take that final step you take a significant hit in combat ability. Thus there's no incentive to take that last step.

[Theolaerynn]

well key word is "i am" i'm sure he has other tasks as well. I may not be totally pleased with ancienthood but i am very satisfied with all the dev's commitment. it's much more commitment than i have for it as a fan lol.

But isn't that exactly my point? It is going to take him several days to post a plan, because he is too busy working on other things.

I do not deny, and in fact admire and appreciate, that the devs commitment is so strong. I do not think any of them are intentionally messing with us.

But the fact remains, it is all a bunch of empty promises, or at best they are promises that are so far out that I do not feel they are not worth considering.

Not because the devs are slacking, these guys seem to work their asses off. The problem is simply that they do not have the funds or the manpower.