Confectioner Preview - Feedback Thread

[Goriax]

If someone feels like their only response to a person's argument is to attack the person,then they probably 1don't have a response for the person's argument. If a person doesn't respond at all it can be for many reasons (such as they think the whole thing has become too ridiulous to dignify with a response, I do that a lot) but if they respond by attacking it appears to me like it's because they don't have a logical response.

If they do the economy right nobody will have to wait out a deathpoint reduction. For a minor sum they'll be able to buy the food and that'll be that. It'll be a busy work step for them sort of comparable to having to repair your equipment in EQ2 when you die. A nuisance but that's it. In exchange, the confectioners feel loved and appreciated (for whatever that's worth).

If they do the economy wrong, then MANY people may feel like they have to wait out a deathpoint reduction. Even if you don't die a lot, if you die more then once every 24 hours on average it's going to start mounting up and after a few weeks there will be people in that boat, even if they don't die many times in a short period of time. Ironically, it'll be the people who play a LOT who will tend to be in more trouble since they're online more thus more likely to die multiple times within a 24 hours period. Of course, if they're online a lot then an hour wait won't be as big a deal as it would be for someone who only has two hours to play.

I wish it was possible to plug the economics of all this into a spreadsheet and have the answer just pop right out.

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I'm sorry but I think a chocolate golem is a bit too much to take.

I'm still of the opinion that there has to be an unavoidable cost to the confectioner when making stuff which gives him experience. This will encourage him to try to recover the cost by selling the results. The cost doesn't need to be high, just high enough to make him want to do something about it.

If everything can be supplied by other classes (whether adventurer or crafter) all what will do is encourage confectioners to also have those other classes.

[Theolaerynn]

I disagree with some of what you have said, Goriax. In fact, I find this whole change to deathpoints extremely narrowminded. Here is why:

- For folks that craft, this change probably wont make a bit of difference, except to confectioners who are drooling at the prospect of a cash cow. While I absolutely think it is past due for Confectioners to get some Dev Lovin, I am quite opposed to it being at my expense. I use Alchemists potions often, but if I choose not to it does not make the game less fun for me. This change in death points will be too much of a 'cough up the cash or log out' thing, and I detest such changes.

- For folks that hunt extremely safe (many of the Uber-Peds I have seen included), it wont change anything at all. Deaths are rare for them anyway.

- For some farmers, deaths will be not uncommon, and the money gained by farming will easily pay for food. This is the customer of the Confectioner, perhaps, from a death point standpoint.

- For some folks just learning to play and stocking up on death points, some will buy the appropriate low level foods, and some confectioners will make money. Others will eventually get bored of the mass deaths and long death point times and they will leave.

- Casual hunters will be hit the hardest because they often do not make a lot of money, but perhaps they will be casual enough to just let the deathpoints decay. Otherwise they will either cough up the occasional coin for food, or move to another game.

- Folks that hunt socially will fall mostly in the 'casual hunters' category, except that Guild Hunts will become more level restricted. As it is now, lower players get killed a lot because of the horrible agro code, but the deathpoints are not terrible. Once death points go to 24 hours this is going to be a major pain in the ******, and so it will be one less form of social gathering for these guilds. Fewer options for fun social gatherings means fewer reasons to stay.

- For healers unfortunate enough to be affected by the horrible agro code and not have someone else who can superior rez them, they will be clients of the Confectioner as well. I am sure there are a few who will love that.

- Folks that like to try different tactics will end up paying a premium too, so at least for myself that will remove a large portion of hunting fun. I like to try different armor scales and training point build-outs to see what kinds of tactics I can come up with, and so I die now and then. No, I don't and never have used Ambrosia. I also like to give my guild any of the useful items I find, so I rarely have any money to speak of. Certainly not enough to spend on food, I would rather log out and wait for the death points to fade. Sometimes I have as many as 6 or 7 deathpoints, do you really think I am going to log out for a week at a time and still pay to play?

In the end, this change will not affect most players, and of the ones that are affected it will be a negetive thing for many of the people I have talked with. And for what purpose? There were tons of ideas that would make Confectioners a viable craft that do not include increasing death point timers. Some of them are even being implemented, so that makes the change to death points even more confusing.

What cracks me up the most is that there is still all this talk about Economy. In fact, the very same talk that has been around for 2+ years. How can you have an economy with six people, or however many play Horizons? And how can you attract more long-term players when every change made has to have a negetive impact to go along with any good ones (when there are any good ones)?

But hey, better to tripple death point timers than to work on client performance or anything useful!

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

I really wish the Death point time and penalty change would have been introduced in a completely seperate thread. It is something being changed in addition to the Confectioner changes yet it seems to be all anyone can talk about.

I doubt even HALF of this thread is anything about upcoming Confectioner changes but rather about economy and the DP change proposal.

[PJ]

- For folks that hunt extremely safe (many of the Uber-Peds I have seen included), it wont change anything at all. Deaths are rare for them anyway.

- For some farmers, deaths will be not uncommon, and the money gained by farming will easily pay for food. This is the customer of the Confectioner, perhaps, from a death point standpoint.

These are extremely inaccurate generalizations.

- For some folks just learning to play and stocking up on death points, some will buy the appropriate low level foods, and some confectioners will make money. Others will eventually get bored of the mass deaths and long death point times and they will leave.

And what of the people who prefer harsher death penalties and a more challenging game? When the game first came out, the lameness of the current death penalty, and general ease of the game was cited by some as a mark against the game.

- Casual hunters will be hit the hardest because they often do not make a lot of money, but perhaps they will be casual enough to just let the deathpoints decay. Otherwise they will either cough up the occasional coin for food, or move to another game.

That's just a plain fallacy. People are going to game the same amount of death points per time, and earn the same amount of death points per time. Casual players will only get a few death points, but earn less money. Heavier players will gain more money, and more death points.

- Folks that like to try different tactics will end up paying a premium too, so at least for myself that will remove a large portion of hunting fun. I like to try different armor scales and training point build-outs to see what kinds of tactics I can come up with, and so I die now and then. No, I don't and never have used Ambrosia. I also like to give my guild any of the useful items I find, so I rarely have any money to speak of. Certainly not enough to spend on food, I would rather log out and wait for the death points to fade. Sometimes I have as many as 6 or 7 deathpoints, do you really think I am going to log out for a week at a time and still pay to play?

Trying different tactics, does not necessarily have to result in death, if you hang around long enough to die, whose at fault?

You said it yourself, you're making the choice to give all you have to your guild. Much like the people who choose to craft things for free, you're also making a choice to be poor. Maybe you could hunt a few mobs that drop coin, sell a few drops occasionally, you have choices. Mayhaps your guild should give something back. Maybe this change will encourage one of them to become a confectioner, as there will actually be a purpose and need for them.

[Goriax]

Actually, you didn't address my main point but anyway:

- For some folks just learning to play and stocking up on death points, some will buy the appropriate low level foods, and some confectioners will make money. Others will eventually get bored of the mass deaths and long death point times and they will leave.

I seem to recall that if you're under level 10 or so you get special dispensation. No death points or no death penalty or something. Can't remember offhand since it's been a LONG time since I was under level 10. But they won't have the same harsh standards I"m pretty sure.

- Casual hunters will be hit the hardest because they often do not make a lot of money, but perhaps they will be casual enough to just let the deathpoints decay. Otherwise they will either cough up the occasional coin for food, or move to another game.

Casual hunters by definition hunt less. If you hunt less the chances of dying multiple times in a 24 hour period will be less. If you average less then one death per 24 real world hours this will not be a big deal to you. If you only play a couple hours a day you have a much better chance of averaging less then one death per day then the person who plays 16 hours a day. Much hard to play 16 hours without dying then to play 2 hours without dying, all else being equal.


My main point is and always has been that whether or not this will be a big deal will depend on whether the consignershave lots of food items and whether the price on those food items is reasonable. If it costs10sp to alevel 100 to wipe out a death point thenI'd say it'll work. If it costs 200 sp to wipe out that death point, or if the food isn't available at all, then probably not. Hopefully the cost to a level 20 will be vastly lower.

I'm not saying it will work. I'm not saying it won't work. I'm saying that it all hinges on the economics and nobody has a good handle on that. In short, it's a big risk. If TG wants to go forward with this they need to think long and hard about ways to make sure the economics works.


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Also

I really wish the Death point time and penalty change would have been introduced in a completely seperate thread. It is something being changed in addition to the Confectioner changes yet it seems to be all anyone can talk about.

I doubt even HALF of this thread is anything about upcoming Confectioner changes but rather about economy and the DP change proposal.

No. The death points are being specifically changed so as to make confectioners' products in higher demand. It belongs here. If they want to do the confectioner changes WITHOUT touching the death penalty then yes, a lot of this discussion can go away. But they aren't because they're specifically making the death penalty harsher so as to benefit confectioners.

Therefore discussions of the change to the death penalty most definately belongs in this thread.

This isn't just about giving confectioners goodies. It's about the game as a whole for every person playing it.

[Theolaerynn]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Theolaerynn wrote:
- For folks that hunt extremely safe (many of the Uber-Peds I have seen included), it wont change anything at all. Deaths are rare for them anyway.

- For some farmers, deaths will be not uncommon, and the money gained by farming will easily pay for food. This is the customer of the Confectioner, perhaps, from a death point standpoint.These are extremely inaccurate generalizations.

Nice of you to say. If you feel so strongly then educate me, don't just tell me I am wrong.

- For some folks just learning to play and stocking up on death points, some will buy the appropriate low level foods, and some confectioners will make money. Others will eventually get bored of the mass deaths and long death point times and they will leave.And what of the people who prefer harsher death penalties and a more challenging game? When the game first came out, the lameness of the current death penalty, and general ease of the game was cited by some as a mark against the game.

Well that would be for the developers to decide, right? They need to figure out just what kind of game this is, and design for it. All of this flipping back and forth isn't doing anyone any favors either. In the beginning I expected death to be quite a bit harsher, but then it turned out different. I adjusted and decided that as a casual game the death points are rather nice the way they are currently. Now we are changing them again, in the name of making one single crafting class more desirable, despite already having other things in the pipeline that will put them on par with Alchemists (for better or worse).

So on this one I figure we should agree to disagree, since neither side has an argument more compelling than the other.

- Casual hunters will be hit the hardest because they often do not make a lot of money, but perhaps they will be casual enough to just let the deathpoints decay. Otherwise they will either cough up the occasional coin for food, or move to another game.That's just a plain fallacy. People are going to game the same amount of death points per time, and earn the same amount of death points per time. Casual players will only get a few death points, but earn less money. Heavier players will gain more money, and more death points.

Forgive me if I don't exactly give you much weight on this issue, you aren't a casual player in the least. But the one thing I will ask you to note is that in this paragraph I did actually point out that not only will these folks likely just wait out any death points they get, but they will not have a measurable impact on the sale of death point food anyway. In other words, there is no positive economic effect of longer death points in this market segment.

- Folks that like to try different tactics will end up paying a premium too, so at least for myself that will remove a large portion of hunting fun. I like to try different armor scales and training point build-outs to see what kinds of tactics I can come up with, and so I die now and then. No, I don't and never have used Ambrosia. I also like to give my guild any of the useful items I find, so I rarely have any money to speak of. Certainly not enough to spend on food, I would rather log out and wait for the death points to fade. Sometimes I have as many as 6 or 7 deathpoints, do you really think I am going to log out for a week at a time and still pay to play?Trying different tactics, does not necessarily have to result in death, if you hang around long enough to die, whose at fault?

I am sure you have a point in there somewhere. I get a kick out of pushing it to the limit, sometimes I win sometimes I lose. That is how I choose to play and I know for a fact I am not the only one. Is your point simply that if other players do not play the way you do then they do not have a right to speak out against what they feel are negetive changes with no benefit?

You said it yourself, you're making the choice to give all you have to your guild. Much like the people who choose to craft things for free, you're also making a choice to be poor. Maybe you could hunt a few mobs that drop coin, sell a few drops occasionally, you have choices. Mayhaps your guild should give something back. Maybe this change will encourage one of them to become a confectioner, as there will actually be a purpose and need for them.

Ahh, from the mouth of PJ Inc., where everything has a price and nothing is for free. Again, we have vastly different philosophies here, best to just agree to disagree. On a side note, our guild has a confectioner, but doesn't that kinda blow away the whole purpose for this according to you and several other people in this thread? Hard to have an economy if no one needs to buy anything. So again please tell me, what benefit was this change again? I would think you would be focused on the rare ingredient drops to keep up the earnings.

[Theolaerynn]

Actually, you didn't address my main point but anyway:

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Theolaerynn wrote:
- For some folks just learning to play and stocking up on death points, some will buy the appropriate low level foods, and some confectioners will make money. Others will eventually get bored of the mass deaths and long death point times and they will leave.I seem to recall that if you're under level 10 or so you get special dispensation. No death points or no death penalty or something. Can't remember offhand since it's been a LONG time since I was under level 10. But they won't have the same harsh standards I"m pretty sure.

I can't recall either, but I seem to remember no deathpoints at all until 10, or something. It has indeed been ages, and I have forgotten too. So lets just say that it is no deathpoints under level 10, is it then your belief that by 11th level you know how to play? I was actually referring to players up to level 30ish.

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Theolaerynn wrote:- Casual hunters will be hit the hardest because they often do not make a lot of money, but perhaps they will be casual enough to just let the deathpoints decay. Otherwise they will either cough up the occasional coin for food, or move to another game.Casual hunters by definition hunt less. If you hunt less the chances of dying multiple times in a 24 hour period will be less. If you average less then one death per 24 real world hours this will not be a big deal to you. If you only play a couple hours a day you have a much better chance of averaging less then one death per day then the person who plays 16 hours a day. Much hard to play 16 hours without dying then to play 2 hours without dying, all else being equal.

What, no one can read past that first comma?

My main point is and always has been that whether or not this will be a big deal will depend on whether the consignershave lots of food items and whether the price on those food items is reasonable.

I actually caught this from your other threads. It comes down to you having criteria for 'a big deal' that is quite a bit different than mine. For me it isn't at all about pricing and availability, it is about hassle that has no meaningful benefit. It isn't going to change the economy, and it probably isn't even going to make confectioners all that much more desirable than they would already be with the new foods that will work similarly to potions. I doubt highly it will attract new players, and may actually be the final straw for some existing ones (not me, Lairs have me hooked for now).

I love the potential that Horizons has, but damnit man, two years with little more than potential to go on gets old. Especially when the developers seem to go out of their way to poke people with sticks. You would think the devs would be more interested in win/win changes, not backhanded ones.

[Snowdonia Honeythorn]

Ahh, from the mouth of PJ Inc., where everything has a price and nothing is for free.

That is quite an accusation you're throwing at PJ.... that also happens to be completely wrong.

I can't count the amount of freebies I have recieved from PJ or the, "here, take these you can keep your eye out for something I might need sometime" for rarer items he'd just handed me because I needed them but he knew, me being one of those poorer crafters who don't craft for money, I didn't have the "market" price to pay for em. Hardly something someone who thought the way you are expressing would do.

it is about hassle that has no meaningful benefit.

So, reducing your death point time or death penalty time (because as posted, there will be foods that benefit both) wouldn't be a "meaningful benefit"?

I think part of the reason you have such a problem with it is because you don't want change and you do like the easy life you have now.

You make it sound like AE/TG have made changes to how the death system works every few months. This is the FIRST TIME in 2 years that they have made a change. The only other time they have changed how DPs worked was when they went from beta to release (DPs only lasted 4 hours then and food was a straight 10 minutes across the board).

Death should sting. In almost any game you play, it does. Whether it is via XP/Lvl loss and corpse retrieval, XP debt, whatever! HZ unfortunately has always been a game of absolutes.... It has never seen the middle ground no matter how much it has been asked to give us this. Maybe it's not possible or maybe that's their intention. But HZ has always been a world of too easy, or too hard; no inbetweens. Death has ALWAYS fell into the too easy catagory. I prove this everytime I go hunting with my much higher friends (me being 50 something and they being 100) and I die one or more times and don't really care a lick that I have. "No big" or, "S'ok" is usually what gets said about it because guess what, it's not (big {deal}) and it is (ok). I WOULD like for Death to be "a big deal" though because it is a big deal! I can't honestly say that I think it should be as big a deal as 24 hours but without the new foods in to test it, I also can't honestly say how big a deal that really is. It seems like a HUGE amount of time, but if foods end up reducing several hours with a single meal, how huge can 24 hours really be when several different meals can be consumed in a short time frame?

It's pretty obvious TG intend on changing the DP times because they are changing the effectiveness of food. I don't think that is a decision (the change) that is going to be swayed in the slightest. So instead of banging your head against a wall trying to get them to keep it the same, how about proposing something you feel you can cope with without seeing the new food reduction times effectiveness? Sure, that may not happen either but it's got a hella better shot than insisting it not change.


Me personally, I reckon death PENALTY should be worse than what it currently is and the death points only be raised to like 12 hours. The penalty should be harsher in stat reduction and maybe even time (although time seems to be a sore spot for some). And I don't feel this way because one of my schools is a Confectioner and I want to cash in. I rarely make foods now (mainly because it's a HUGE hassle and there is ZERO reward for it) and anything I have made I didn't make for selling. I would prefer to see it this way because death is NOTHING right now and I don't see making the point itself lasting 24 hours making it anymore of a deterent, only an annoyance. If the penalty was harsher for a slightly longer time, people really WOULD see death as the big deal it should be and not just a hassle.

[PJ]

That is quite an accusation you're throwing at PJ.... that also happens to be completely wrong.

I can't count the amount of freebies I have recieved from PJ or the, "here, take these you can keep your eye out for something I might need sometime" for rarer items he'd just handed me because I needed them but he knew, me being one of those poorer crafters who don't craft for money, I didn't have the "market" price to pay for em. Hardly something someone who thought the way you are expressing would do.

Shhhhh *gags Snow* you're going to ruin my image. *Runs off to evict war widows and sell gruel to orphans*

- For folks that hunt extremely safe (many of the Uber-Peds I have seen included), it wont change anything at all. Deaths are rare for them anyway.

- For some farmers, deaths will be not uncommon, and the money gained by farming will easily pay for food. This is the customer of the Confectioner, perhaps, from a death point standpoint.

To elaborate, farming is no more dangerous or safer then any other type of hunting, its all the manner in which you do it. People who don't know their limits, don't know when to cut and run, etc are going to get alot of death points while farming. People who do, are going to get few to zero while farming. Same for hunting single mobs on the satyr islands or in the East deadlands.

Also inaccurate to say that uberpeds aren't going to be a market for confectioners. I know most of the people who could be lumped into that category on chaos, and they tend to consume copious amounts of ambrosia and when it was the only option, food.

On a side note, our guild has a confectioner, but doesn't that kinda blow away the whole purpose for this according to you and several other people in this thread? Hard to have an economy if no one needs to buy anything. So again please tell me, what benefit was this change again? I would think you would be focused on the rare ingredient drops to keep up the earnings.

Actually not mine. I'm don't believe that guilds hurt the economy that much. When observed from theglobal level, guilds can be treated asindividuals in the economy. A largeguild is similar to me, a very potentially self sufficient person. The members of the guild provide for each other, like my various classes do for me. The various guild crafters can provide for their entire guild. But they are also provided for by the adventurers, with tech comps, formulas, techniques, etc. The guild is a subset of the economy, not excluded from it. The guild sells its excess goods to the rest of the economy, and consumes that which it cannot provide for itself, or which it feels expedient to purchase rather then craft/loot by itself. Now your guild has a confectioner, but said confectioner will no longer be useless. It will provide a valuable guild service, and a desireable productfor sale to the rest of the economy.

Funny that you used the word, need. We play a MMORPG... nobody needs anything. Our economy is fundamentally baed on wants, not needs. Yes it is possible, given enough time, for an individual or a guild to become functionally self sufficient. But we are dealing in what people want to do, and we're dealing in expedience. Just because a guild/person can do something, doesn't mean they want to or will. I've crafted goods for members of guilds that had other members who could make the items. But they wanted to have the items now, and their guild crafter was busy/offline, or they didn't want to bother them, etc. Just because a guild can do something doesn't mean they are going to. There's a leader of a certain large guild who is at the moment buying t4/5 spell techs, expert jewelry forms. Its not because his guild has nobody who can hunt in t4/5, but because its expedient to simply purchase them.

Ideally the game should be set up, so that nobody has to do everything or any one thing. But that by doing what you choose to do, what you enjoy to do, whether it be adventuring, crafting, etc, you can aquire the valuable goods, money, etc. that you need to purchase the other things you want for your character.

And that's the rub. AE created a class, called it confectioner. Didn't finish the class, and the products of the class weren't desired. So now its time for TG to rectify that. The goods of confectioner aren't being required, (and there were those confectioners that wanted 0 death point decay with time). Much like potions, nobody "needs" to use potions, but some of them are highly desireable, their use is encouraged. Now the use of food will be encouraged.


Oh and there are no win/win changes. Every change/addition they make is going to upset somebody, every change/addition they don't make is going to upset somebody.

Some people were upset the dev's spent so much time focused so much of their time on ARoP/Lairs. Some people were upset that ARoP/Lairs didn't turn out the way they'd envisioned. Some people were upset they added some large bosses, and rare loot attached to them. But does that mean the game has gotten worse as a whole product over the course of the last year? No. In the end, longer death points are going to upset some people, like all changes, other people will have to adapt to the changes and alter their style of play a slight bit, but it'll be a better game for it.

[Theolaerynn]

Oy Vey. How about you guys take a little more time to actually read what you are replying on? For instance, I did not say all Uber-Peds will have litle effect on Confectioner economy, I said some Uber-Peds. I have observed it and know it to be true.

You also make my own point in an effort to dispute it. You said that farmers that know how to do it will not die much. Isn't that exactly what I said? So no effect on Confectioner economy.

On top of that, PJ argues a semantic point on Guilds and economy. Doesn't matter if you phrase it like 'hurts the economy by not stimulating it' or 'does not affect the economy because it does not participate in it' or any number of other phrases, if there is no demand then there is no reason to supply. Keep it in context, folks, I did not say there is no demand at all, period, end of story. We are talking only about self-sufficient guilds here in this paragraph.

Read my earlier post again and see if your arguments still make sense to you, and then rephrase if they do. To me you misread, so I am not sure I follow your point entirely.

I do enjoy the comment about no win/win, it has been a while since I have read a bigger load of rubbish. For instance, leave the death point thing alone and the Confectioner change would absolutely be win/win. They get the same benefits Alchemists get from a production stand point, and we don't get the much-debated deathpoint change. In other words, Confectioners are happy, players that use them are happy, and everyone else is unaffected. Win/win, the change is positive. But that was a nice cop-out just the same, kudos.

And Snow, you are correct. I should have left out that last part of my comment about nothing is for free with PJ, I said it out of anger. But the rest of the statement holds very well, and is reinforced by PJs comment that I responded to in the first place.

[PJ]

Lets approach it from a different angle:

-Having death points (8 hour or 24 hour) does no prevent you from playing the game
-Having the death penaly on you does not prevent you from playing the game. However, it does reduce your skills/stats so it can inhibit (but not prevent) you in doing some things

Therefore purchasing food from a confectioner is not, nor will be required to play the game.

As it stands death is no big deal, the change both to the length of the penalty, and the severity of the penalty when one has more extreme quantities of death points, reinforces death as a BAD thing. As I believe it should be. Something to be avoided.

Nowanother goal of the chance isto encourage the purchase and use of food for the purposes of death point reduction. For food use to be encouraged, the average rate of death has to be greater then the natural expiration of a death point. If i get 2 death points a day, why am i using food? 3 death points expire per day as it stands. Me? I doubt i've gotten 3 death points per played day, much less per calendar day. There's no encouragement for me to use food whatsoever. No I do get at least 1 per day, usually 2, occasionally 3. There's some encouragement for me to use food with the new change, but its far from required. Required would be no natural decay at all.

It'd be presumptuous to state an estimated average death per day per player for the server, but i'd bet that its less then 3

[imported_tjl]

As it stands death is no big deal, the change both to the length of the penalty, and the severity of the penalty when one has more extreme quantities of death points, reinforces death as a BAD thing. As I believe it should be. Something to be avoided.

meh, speak for yourself here... I know my character becomes a useless puddle of goo after about 4 death points. It already is a big deal for some people who dont have max stats in everything.

25% hit to 3100 hp, and a 25% hit to 1800 hp while statistically the same... is not in practice.

@25% the 3100'ers still have 2325 health and can still manage themselves fine, whereas the 1800'ers have a measly 1350 health in battle.

[EmilyDawn]

oh now i remember why i stopped posting here *sarcasm* [:P] ...cause everybody thinks they are right and nobody thinks they are wrong [:^)] but i know it's all just opinions *hint hint* [;)]

but i kinda look forward to the new DP thingie cause i like the challenge. and um, staying alive (or trying to) is supposed to be a good thing [:)]

[cattoy]

There are two fundamental problems with the confectioner class. Both are being addressed, but neither solution appears to be comprehensive.

Problem 1: DP elimination is the primary function of food, and it happens for free.

With extended DP lengths and food effects increased, and ambrosia becoming rare, standard foods will have more market value, enhancing the role of the confectioner. However, it still does not force anybody to eat, nor does it affect anyone who doesn't get DP often anyway.

Problem 2: Confectioners are the only crafting class whose principal product is exclusively associated with the most negative in-game event in existence. (you died)

Every other crafting class is associated with positive achievements. You need the services of a spellcrafter, armorer or weaponsmith because you gained enough levels to qualify for a new brand of spell, armor or weapon. You need an upgraded disk or cargo armor because you've leveled up your crafting class. You only need food because you got killed.
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In theory there will be foods that act as bennies that will be in demand for adventurers along the same lines as alchemist potions. The problem is that alchemists are free to collect all the ingredients for such potions by themselves. Confectioners will have to buy stuff from the Vielo to make some of these foods, which will either drive prices beyond what people are willing to pay, or force confectioner to make such foods at a loss.

Also, many of the foods already in the game such as the festival foods are listed as T5 foods and have effects roughly analogous to T2 gifts. Not much bang for the buck, especially when you have to pay Vielo prices for some of the ingredients.

[EmilyDawn]

Confectioners are the only crafting class whose principal product is exclusively associated with the most negative in-game event in existence. (you died) Every other crafting class is associated with positive achievements.You need an upgraded disk or cargo armor because you've leveled up your crafting class. You only need food because you got killed.

okie, i understand what you're saying but not you're point? [:$]i need to buy new armor now because i leveled. this could be negative too? (i have none for my appropriate lvl).i don't think confectioner is a class that is associated with negative aspects. i just look at it as a optional necessity [:)] no one has to buy food. [;)]

Confectioners will have to buy stuff from the Vielo to make some of these foods, which will either drive prices beyond what people are willing to pay, or force confectioner to make such foods at a loss.

everybody is crying about this [8-)] this how i look at it...you gotta buy some comps when you get your armor or craft gear made, right?is gonna be the same thing for certain foods (not everything prolly just a couple out of the several dozens). confectioners are not gonna buy those ingredients, you're gonna be expected to provide them. best of the best never comes cheap [:P]

yeah, there is no alternative to buying from veilo. [:(] maybe the devs have something planned for this later so we have a choice [:)]

[Goriax]

[img]/Web/Themes/Generic/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Goriax wrote: Actually, you didn't address my main point but anyway:

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]Theolaerynn wrote:
- For some folks just learning to play and stocking up on death points, some will buy the appropriate low level foods, and some confectioners will make money. Others will eventually get bored of the mass deaths and long death point times and they will leave.I seem to recall that if you're under level 10 or so you get special dispensation. No death points or no death penalty or something. Can't remember offhand since it's been a LONG time since I was under level 10. But they won't have the same harsh standards I"m pretty sure.I can't recall either, but I seem to remember no deathpoints at all until 10, or something. It has indeed been ages, and I have forgotten too. So lets just say that it is no deathpoints under level 10, is it then your belief that by 11th level you know how to play? I was actually referring to players up to level 30ish.

I know level 100s who don't know how to play.At some point you have to stop coddling people. HZ chooses to do that around 10. If you don't know how to play the game you're going to have trouble. Any game. They give you a short period of time in which to learn and then you're on your own. By level 10 you hopefully know to run away if a fight is going against you. Maybe you think people should be given up to level 30 but TG evidentally thinks differently.

If I can go to aconsigner in any racial city and pay anominal sum for enough food to buy off a death point, if I can stockpile that food or even carry it with me, then it's not going to destroymy play experience. Maybe some people will quit the game rather then go to a consigner. If that's all it takes to make them quit they were probably about toquit anyway.

One can argue that the only one this benefits is the confectioners and I'd agree. That's what was intended. For whatever reason they've decided they're going to give confectioners a very important place in the game. If you want to argue that confectioners should NOT have a very important place in this game don't let me stop you.

Yes it's an additional hassle, but if food is cheap and plentiful it'sonly a minor additional hassle and not a game breaking experience, unless you were about to leave anyway. IF the food is cheap and plentiful. Evidentally TG decided putting everyone through the additional hassle was worth making confectioners feel loved and appreciated. That's their judgement call.

If food is cheap and plentiful, the death penalty will still be pretty mild by the standards of almost every other game I've played.

If food is NOT cheap and plentiful then there are going to be problems.

[Bulgrim StoneCleaver]

Hence the reason, Goriax, that I really dislike having the Vielo involved in peddling food ingredients. They don't have the ability to modify their prices or make deals for players. Vielo are just a price fix/money sink.

If you worry about food costing too much and effecting your game, then VIELO involvement is what you should be fighting/cautioning against.

[cattoy]

[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]cattoy wrote:Confectioners are the only crafting class whose principal product is exclusively associated with the most negative in-game event in existence. (you died) Every other crafting class is associated with positive achievements.You need an upgraded disk or cargo armor because you've leveled up your crafting class. You only need food because you got killed.

okie, i understand what you're saying but not you're point? [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-10.gif[/img]i need to buy new armor now because i leveled. this could be negative too? (i have none for my appropriate lvl).i don't think confectioner is a class that is associated with negative aspects. i just look at it as a optional necessity [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img] no one has to buy food. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-5.gif[/img]

You're saying that leveling up has negative aspects? What are you smoking and can you spare me some?
You don't outgrow armor. It still works. You just gain the ability to wear better types. If you don't actively upgrade your armor, you're autonerfing yourself and it's your own dumb fault.

Getting a new set of armor or a new weapon is a byproduct of growth. Duh.
[img]/Web/Themes/default/images/icon-quote.gif[/img]cattoy wrote:Confectioners will have to buy stuff from the Vielo to make some of these foods, which will either drive prices beyond what people are willing to pay, or force confectioner to make such foods at a loss.

everybody is crying about this [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-43.gif[/img] this how i look at it...you gotta buy some comps when you get your armor or craft gear made, right?is gonna be the same thing for certain foods (not everything prolly just a couple out of the several dozens). confectioners are not gonna buy those ingredients, you're gonna be expected to provide them. best of the best never comes cheap [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-4.gif[/img]

yeah, there is no alternative to buying from veilo. [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-6.gif[/img] maybe the devs have something planned for this later so we have a choice [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

Nobody NEEDS to buy comps from the Vielo except the confectioners making buff foods. Anybody else can go hunt them. Nothing in the game drops chocolate. If you make foods that call for it, you buy it from the Vielo. Period. There is no other way to get it.

[Theolaerynn]

Hmm. You are still missing my point, Gor. It isn't about coddling anyone, and I have no clue how you got off on that tangent about me wanting to change the death point protection to level 30 or whatever you were rambling about. That isn't what I was saying at all, it was simply a definition I was using to describe roughly when I thought folks were reasonably expected to know how to play.

But lets try this another way. Tell me, how does extending the death point decay to 24 hours enhance game play for anyone other than confectioners?

I know there are some who say this increases the excitement by making death more painful, so that is one valid point for some. However, there are quite a few who disagree with that point. For myself, it doesn't increase the risk at all, it just increases the annoyance. Risk is losing experience and having to go on corpse runs. That provides the rush of risk-based combat. Trippling the timer is just annoying without enjoyment.

I suppose I wouldn't mind it so much if I didn't die so often from bugs. Locking up for 5 seconds or so everytime a player comes into view really puts a crimp in combat. How about fixing that before doing questionable things like extending death points? Sure, I could solo, but if I wanted to solo I could play something that doesn't require a subscription fee.

So now that we have covered that one debated benefit, what else do you see that compensates for the pain in the ****** this brings? Because if that is the only benefit, then it is only a benefit for some of those that will be negetively impacted by the change

Oh, and about confectioners being useful, do you think Alchemists are useful? Confectioners are already slated for changes that will bring them on par with Alchemists, but the thing with death points takes them over the top.

[EmeraldWind]

ReallyI don't think that confectioners should be able to have a monopoly on the food market. My thing is that there should be some other options as well to reduce the death point duration, not just have confectioners be the primary means to death point reduction. I would not be counting the rare drops for mystical foods,(i.e. Ambrosia) but maybe add something that would not nearly be effective but all races can do, just like a special recipie or two they can make off the bat; just have that food when made bound to them and be less quality than confectioner brand food.