Hmmm.
No fix for the Storage Rooms oversized footprints?
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Hmmm.
No fix for the Storage Rooms oversized footprints?
Dragon Lairs: Istaria's ghetto
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Why would there be a fix for somthing that is not broken?Originally Posted by Dragoniade
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Because the Dragon Storage are still ridiculous low in capacity compared to any other Silo in game. I did a FULL comparaisons.
Relative Size
Footprint
Capacity
Bulk per volume
Bulk per unit
Silo Qte.
Tier 1
1 block
13824
25000
1.808
25000
84
Tier 2
2 blocks27648
40000
1.447
20000
42
Tier 3
4 blocks55296
55000
0.995
13750
30
Tier 4
6 blocks82944
70000
0.844
11667
20
Tier 5
6 blocks82944
85000
1.025
14167
15
Tier 6
9 blocks124416
100000
0.804
11111
10
Size
Footprint
Capacity
Bulk per area
Bulk per Unit
Silo Qte.
Tier 1
pi*3^2
28.2744
20000
707.35
20000
88
Tier 2
pi*2.25^2
15.89599
32000
2013.08
42667
165Tier 3
pi*3^2
28.274444000
1556.17
44000
88Tier 4
pi*2.25^215.89599
56000
3522.90
74667
165Tier 5
pi*3^2
28.274468000
2405.00
68000
88Tier 6
pi*2.25^215.89599
80000
5032.71
106667
165
Relative size is the relation of each Silo's compared to the Tier 1 silo.
Footprint is the actual size Used, consummed, on the plot.
Capacity is the bulk it can carry.
Bulk per volume/area is the capacity per cubic or squar meters.
Bulk per unit is the bulk per comparative unit, aka tier 1 silo.
As for the silo quantity, since now most community lairs are worth 500-600s for a 5x5x6 lairs, I took a similar priced plot to compare them. That plot is a 52x69.
For the lairs, corridor are taken in account, since you need those to even access the storages.
For plot, I used the lowest fraction, to give some rooms to move. Biped races don't need more, since they can setscale anytime their silo to move, and since they don't need to be close to it.
When you compare both, you can definitly see how unfair dragon silo are. Should you decide to make a farm, the most you would ever fit on a lair is 84 Tier ONE silo. And as tiers goes up, the number go down and down. And making Tier 5 is a real joke, especially when you see that a plot can hold EIGHTY-EIGHT Tier 5. No matter which tiers, a Plot will ALWAYS outweight a lair. And not by a small margin.
Those are the average size. I'm not even comparing the lairs to a 90x90 plots like those found in Sheperd home. I can't understand why Tulga still keep those ridiculous storage capacity.
What are our alternative? Building lair Room and Hall Room? Those take an eternity to build, compared to silo, and can't come close to any of them. A T6 Grand hall can't hold as much as a Tier 4 silo and take 6 time more spaces.
Plot owner, when Tiered silo got introduced, complained when Tulga introduced the door, that were limiting how many silos you could build and were greatly limiting the access. They fixed that, so why can't dragon get the same treatment?
The number speaks for themselves. Dragon Storage Rooms are way sub-par to all other Plot storage. If a plot owner want stack, they can build a lot of tents without a problem. They even got multiple racial house which the capacity got adjusted according to their footprint. Why aren't our silos even following that rules? And if they want bulk, they can build any silos they want.
Dragon Lairs: Istaria's ghetto
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Maybe that isn't what it's about at all. Maybe it's about trying to redress the incredible imbalance between lairs and plots. I see you going on and on about the difference in the number of silos a lair can hold compared to a plot, but you've never once mentioned any other structure.
Relative size - good point to bring up.
A Tier 4 guildhall takes up just 18 of the available 150 building units in your example below - that's less than 9% of the building space.
A Tier 4 hall on the biped plot in your example takes up 2500 of the available 3588 building units - that's 70% of the building space - almost 8 times what the same building takes up in a lair.
Structure quantity - another good point to bring up.
Having built the T4 guildhall in the lair in your example, there's enough space left for all 5 craft shops that dragons use (all of them Tier 3 or higher), another T4 hall, 2 T2 halls, 2 T2 lairs, a vault, 2 libraries, a consigner and a pawnbroker(T2) and 15 T1 silos PLUS all of the corridors required to access all of those structures. I know you can fit all of that, because I've done several designs which had all of those structures, AND they were in a 6x4x6 lair which is a little smaller than the one in your example.
Having built the T4 hall on the plot in your example there's enough space left for a T1 hall, a blacksmith shop and 6 silos.
NO vault, NO consigner, NO pawnbroker, NO libraries, NO houses (lair equivalent) ONLY 1 of the 10 craft shops a biped can use.
Total storage in the lair:
2 x T4 Halls = 480 items/57,600 bulk
2 x T2 Halls = 240 items/28,800 bulk
2 x T2 lairs = 80 items/9,600 bulk
2 x T4 libraries = 150 items/300 bulk
15 x T1 silos = 15 items/375k bulk
TOTAL LAIR STORAGE : 965 ITEMS/471,300 BULK
Total storage on the plot:
1 x T4 Hall = 240 items/28,800 bulk
1 x T2 Hall = 120 items/14,400 bulk
6 x T4 silos = 6 items/336k bulk
TOTAL PLOT STORAGE : 366 ITEMS/ 379, 200 BULK
I used T4 silos on the plot because you'd say it wasn't fair if I used T1 silos because the footprint size doesn't get larger as the Tier goes up. If I'd used Tier 5 silos then only 3 would fit, and realistically no-one builds T6 because the resources have to be transmuted. (and there are no structures on the lair that require transmuting so it isn't fair to put them on the plot).
Even if plots were made the same size as lairs, they still couldn't have as many structures because dragons can have 2 of each tier of each structure and bipeds can only have 1.
Guildmaster of The Alliance
http://The-Alliance.cjb.net
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
I didn't, because it would point out even more imbalance.
Plots have tents when you want bulk. Lairs don't
Plots have 3 tiered shops with the same footprint. An Beg, JMan, Expert shops all have the same footprint. Lairs have 6 Tiered shops, each increasing in size for the same benefit as a plot one.
Plots got some T3 consigners/pawn combo for space effiency and tiered single consigner and pawn increasing in size. Lairs have the tiered version.
actually, it's 12%, but hall aren,t guild hall. Guildhall have an increasing requirement in ressource as tiers goes up. It's a lot easier to build Tier many tier 1-4 GH than building the same ones in Hall. But yes, either Plot silo are undersized, or the Guild House are oversized on plot.
But then again, plots got tents and alternative. Other than hall or lair, what else do lairs have as stack storage?
Yes. That's fine, but have you tried the other alternative? Because you had another: tents.
Tents are able to hold 10 items and are about the size of an odd tirered silo.
That's 88 of those for 880 stacks on the same plot.
Or we can use the same plot (52x69 ~ 3600) to build 5 Expert workshop (averaging 280x5 ~ 1400 or 38% of plot area), build 30 tents (7x7x30 ~ 1500 or 40% ) and use the balance (700) to build 14 T4 silo (roughly 784'000 bulks).
In the end, 5 shops, and 300 items, 784'000 bulks. Even more storage if we decide to sacrifice the storage. And a LOT less work required to build those than building 6 halls and lairs.
Yes, lairs are good for machines and rooms full of air . but when it come to storage, they come far behind. And storage is for a lot of people, the important things about plots and lairs. Especially bulks for crafters
Dragon Lairs: Istaria's ghetto
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Not sure if I understand your full meaning here, But if you mean a Dragon Hall is not the same thing as a Biped Guild hall. Yes they are the same. You have to build a Dragon Hall on a Dragon Guild Plot to unlock the Sub-plots. If you mean something else Then sorry.
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
I mean in material requirement and space. In these 2 points, they are greatly different.
But in fonctionnality, they are the same, yes (same function as storage and unlocking sub-plot).
What I also meant is that comparing an hall to every other plot storages is a bad comparaison.
Dragon Lairs: Istaria's ghetto
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Your whole imbalance lies with tents? Have you ever seen a plot with just silos and tents? Seriously... get real
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Let's not forget... in order to access your Storage area, you have to have an associated "corridor"
Here is a letter code of my level 0 lair:
C = corridor; M = T2 Stoneworking machine; S = Storage(t1); L=Library; D = downspiral; E = Entrypoint
LSCSS
LSCSM
CSCSM
CCCCC
..DDEE
As you can see, on a bi-ped plot, all the C's can be replaced with S's and you would still have access to that unit. For lairs, a lot of space is wasted because the storage only has 1 entrance. If they made the Storage with 2 exits, then I could see where chaining them together would work... in this design:
SCSCS
SCSCS
SCSCS
SCSCS
dCDCd
D = Spiral from above, d spiral to next level
You could get 12 storage per level if that's all you build at 25K per silo
Justa Mirage: Ranger 100 / Healer 92 / Carpentry 100 / Confectioner 100 / Fletching 92 / Weaver 62 / Gatherer 34
Flatspin: Ancient Lunus Dragon 100 / Craft 100 / Lairshaping 100
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
I was about to say the same thing.
Both Dragoniade and Rhyssa's numbers are flawed because neither add in the sapce required for corridors.
On average, you'll need 1 unit of lairspace for a corridor, for every silo.
setting up a 3 way and using 3 silos on one corridor, still wastes 2 other units of space, in the corners.
O
O?O
See the wasted space to each side of the top silo. still uses the average of 1 unit of space per silo.
Really, direct comparisons are probably not possible. Silos reach up into the sky. Lairchambers don't.
On the other hand, the amount of resources used in some lair construction is over the top imho.
Guaran |The voice of reason|
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
This discussion was off-topic in the Blight notes thread and was moved for that reason.
Feel free to continue, but please do not bring it up in the Blight notes thread again.
Be seeing you...
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
I did took into account the space required for storage. On a 5x5 lair,
X=X=X
X=X=X
X=X=X
X=X=X
X===X
That's 14 silo for 1 level. Multiply that by 6 and that give you 84, take or leave 2-3 demending what you use to access between level, thanks to the new spiral with 2 exits.
For Tier 2, it's the same, except you cut the level by 2. And so on.
Plots uses 2 out of the 3 dimensions because they are planed in 2D.
Lairs takes 3 out of 3 dimension, when they should at the very least use the 4 dimensions: Dimensional Pocket. Give that and you solve the issues of having to find an excuse on how a storage room of higher tier can hold much more while retaining the same dimensions.
But yes, a LOT of space is wasted with the lack of a second entrance. Every other rooms got an increasing number of entrance. Why would silo be different again? It seem to me that Tulga like to be consistent when it please them. Direct comparaison may not be possible, but complete disbalances like those aren't either.
Dragon Lairs: Istaria's ghetto
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Get real yourself and stop trolling dragons post, dragon hater. Some bipeds can't just take to have dragons get as good (or even close) as them.
Tents are one of the easy, cookie cutter, solution plot owners have to get easy, cheap, stacks.
Silos are one of the easy way for plot owner to get huge bulk storage.
House and hall are bonus.
For lairs, it's not even an option. You want storage, you have no alternative over the lair (house) and hall (guild house). no alternative at all. And even less when it come to bulk.
And 165 Vs 42 is far from being balance.
Dragon Lairs: Istaria's ghetto
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Ummmm Dragonaide...
How do you get to your level if you have no way of downward spirals?
You cannot fit 14 silos on one level and expect to get to a lower level...
Please check your design...
your last X===X
Which one of those is an up or down spiral? I can see one being a down spiral leading to two corridors leading to silos by using a Spiral Corner... but then... how do you get to the next level further down? Yes... you will have to sacrifice one of the corner storages for a downward spiral to get to the levels below, leaving you with only one entrance to the next level... and a 13th storage area.
Justa Mirage: Ranger 100 / Healer 92 / Carpentry 100 / Confectioner 100 / Fletching 92 / Weaver 62 / Gatherer 34
Flatspin: Ancient Lunus Dragon 100 / Craft 100 / Lairshaping 100
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Like I said, give or take 3-4 silos for setting the spirals.
The point is, we're still left with even less space for silo than all the other plots with the same relational size.
Dragon Lairs: Istaria's ghetto
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
On a side note, you can take at least 2 silo spots out of the equation anyway, because our entrance actually often extends down one level and you can't place anything underneath it.
I look at the T6 Grand Hall and just cross it off my list.
All the stuff on it requires transmutation and from what I understand there is one item (I am not 100% sure) Dragons can't make/transmute.
On top of this, there is a very specific requirement of how you attach a hall, so most likely there is wasted space involved. Take out another few silos.
We have no silos that can be placed sideways either.
If you want to pull something down later, you better make sure it's not a connecting structure - or you get to pull down everything attached to it first, build what you wanted to change, then rebuild everything behind it.
A biped who wants to rip down a house can just do so. A dragon who wants to rip out a hall... is most likely stuffed up to the wazoo, because of what's connected to it.
A corridor takes 1/2 the resources of a T1 silo.
A guildy of mine started to build a silo farm of 24 T2 silos yesterday. The scaffold for all of them stands, 4 of them are about to pop tomorrow.
If I wanted to build 24 T2 silos, I would have to build tons of corridors as well, all of them would take up 2 levels, which means I have to have at least 2 spirals as well.
I don't have the plan in my head at the moment, but my lair is 96x120x168.
So I can put a 3 way at the entrance, a T2 on that 3 way, then another 3 way, then a spiral.
Connecting to that second 3 Way I put a 3 way, because the T2 by the entrance gets in the way. I attach a silo next to the spiral. Then I attach a 4 way to the 3rd 3Way and attach a silo there, next to the second T2. I attach a 3 way to that, and 2 T2's. I need another 3 way on the second 4way (other silos in the way and no other connections) and add a silo on one arm. Then a 3 way to that and another silo on one arm, the other has to have a straight attached because another silo is in the way. There goes another T2. That gives me 8 T2 silos on level 0. It also means I have to build 9 corridor structures to be able to get to them, to be able to BUILD them.
Forget level 1, it's taken up by the 2-tier T2's. Put in another spiral on that level to get down to level 2. Forget adding anything on level 1, the entrance hangs down into it, I can't place anything there.
So now we are on level 2. It's much the same story, and again it takes out level 3, no matter what you do. I think you might be able to fit 10 T2's on that with a bit of creative planning, maybe more, but it takes out level 3.
Rinse repeat.
Who do you think will build 24 T2 silos faster and with less resources than it takes me to build even one level?
For those 9 corridors on level 0 I need as much resource as I would for 4 T1 silos. That's enough T1 resource for 4 T2's as well, lets not forget that.
I wonder how bipeds would feel if they suddenly had to build a road that leads to the silo they are putting on the plot *before* they can build the silo, or if they can't build on more than 3 structures at any one time.
I'm not complaining, just pointing out some facts here. Lairshaping is way *way* harder than plotbuilding, involves WAY more resources and we cannot easily change our mind once a structure connects to another structure.
I'll use T1 resources at optimal for an example:
1 Lattice = 20 Tricut and 20 Crystal.
That's:
2x Garnet, 2x Malachite, 2x Turqoise for 1 Tricut
2x Unfocused Viridian Crystal for 1 Focused Viridian Crystal.
(Crystals do not give xp in any school)
1 Maelstone = 20 Bronze Lodestones and 20 Dim Orbs
That's:
2x Bronze Bar, 2x Sandstone Slab for 1 Lodestone
2x Dim Essence for 1 Dim Orb
1 Flowstone = 20 Sandstone Cast Stone and 20x Bronze Bar
That's:
2x Sandstone Brick, 2x Dim Essence for 1 Sandstone Cast Stone
Bronze Bar
etc etc.
Most of our final items are made up from at least 3 different resources.
Unfocused and Focused Crystals have the same bulk and do not give any xp regardless of which school you are in.
If I want to build anything bigger than a T2, I take out a space at least 2 deep, and 2 long. I have a front access only, so I can only place it one way (not sideways). One of our T3 silos is the equivalent of 5 plot spaces (5 because you *have* to have a corridor to connect to. I'm not talking about shops etc - just silos.)
In my lair, if I want to make the most use of the space available to me, I would get 5 T3 silos, 4 T2 silos, two spirals and 5 corridors per 2 levels - MAX.
Yes, per 2 levels, because they are all 2 levels deep, hence the 2 spirals.
Sure, I could build 4 T1's and 5 T3's, but that would only mean I'd have to build another 4 T1's and just as many corridors on the level below. It's just not efficient, resource wise. Storage wise, yes, but the resources required are insane that way.
Now bear in mind that generally there are no crystalshapers near the crystals, which makes this an endless slog dragging them back, focusing them and storing--- hmmm... we have to build that corridor first before we can build the silo, but I have no place to store any excess so we have to be very precise until that first silo (which we can't get to yet) is actually built. And then we have to be very precise with -- well all of them, until we've built enough silos (and corridors to be able to build them) to store what we're hauling...
If I make tricuts, I gather all 3 gems x2 to make a tricut. Where do I put those? Hm?
Now compare that to a biped who can plan 24 silos and haul tarbash after tarbash of resource, make and apply the "excess" to *any* of those 24 silos at any time.
There is - as far as I am aware - no machine that isn't relatively easily accessible and *available* somewhere within one portal's reach.
I can't make the crystals on site anywhere (yet). Not on *any* site with crystals.
I can't even get to the silo I planned 2 spots down from where my corridor is, let alone apply to it.
You simply cannot compare the two. At all.
I don't do biped construction, but I know for a fact that it doesn't take 3 different resources to make 1 component. It needs different schools, lots of them, yes. But we have to change schools as well.
Maybe not as often, but therefore we are usually not able to build on more than 3 things at once, so we tend to change schools just as often, simply because we have to make different resources to apply all the time, if we don't have storage elsewhere available to us.
If a biped decides to do all the masonry stuff he can do on all of his structures at once - it's possible. Dragons don't really have that option simply due to the fact that they can't get to it.
Apples and oranges.
I agree with the original poster that the footprint of our storage is ridiculous compared to the footprint of biped storage. A 25x25 plot that holds 24 T2 silos... those same 24 silos would take up 2 levels per 9 silos in my lair, making it extend down into level 5.
If I fiddle around a lot I might get in 10 or 11 per level (I have to plan for access below), but that would *still* take out space down to level 5 and I'd have a lot of dead space.
I have 7 levels in my lair.
You propose to put that T6 hall... where?
I'm comparing a 25x25 plot to a 120x96x168 lair. If you make that plot bigger, there is no comparison if you *only* count storage and add nothing else.
Should I mention that I've so far had every silo I built duplicated? I popped a silo and found *another* silo inside it, which didn't show up on my plans at all, but which had material applied to it. I ripped out 4 half built silos, all were dupes. I got no novians back except of one T2 silo.
I cannot get into that popped silo until I delete the dupe that's blocking it.
I can't apply those T2 novians anywhere because the corridor isn't built yet and I can't store anything in my vault because it's got the novians in it.
Sorry. Rant over. Too much lairshaping lately.
I'll stop doing lattices for a few days, so that my face regains a normal color and my bloodpressure goes down...
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Actually I did, as I stated here:
I completely agree with you there.
Guildmaster of The Alliance
http://The-Alliance.cjb.net
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Dragoniade you can have 1x1x1 t6 silos as soon as your construction requirements to make that t6 match that of the biped t6 AND the bulk that they hold is knocked back down to match that if the biped t6...
A Biped t6 silo takes 1,100 contstruction units (not pieces).
a dragon t6 silo takes 144 construction units (not pieces).
T6 dragon silos already are 100k bulk vs 80k bulk... NOW you want more... I'm sorry, its a travesity already. I vote no way in h*ll. As it is I'd LOVE to be able to throw up t6 biped silos for the cost that dragons have to build theirs.
25 months waiting for expert CNF forms. Tired of the intentional deceptions and being kicked in the junk.
ADV: Centenarian Nature Walker; Rating: 162
Craft: 1900 levels; Craft Rating: 234
DRGN: Lunus, Adult, 100 DRAG, 100 DCRA, 100 DLSH, Expert Lairshaper (Chaos-04)
No, try not! Do or do not, there is no try. - Yoda
If the enemy presents an opportunity, take advantage of it - Sun Tzu
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Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
Biped silos are based on a bulk of 8 per item.
Dragon silos are based on a bulk of 10 per item.
That's where the 80k and 100k come from. Both silos can hold the same amount of the proper ressources.
Take that into consideration when you compare storage capacity.
Re: Blight Update - February 9, 2006
did they change bars, bricks, orbs, focused azulyte, and/or tri-cuts to 10 bulk?
wow I missed that change.
even at 80k vs 80k bulk capacity 1,100 units vs 144 is disgusting.
25 months waiting for expert CNF forms. Tired of the intentional deceptions and being kicked in the junk.
ADV: Centenarian Nature Walker; Rating: 162
Craft: 1900 levels; Craft Rating: 234
DRGN: Lunus, Adult, 100 DRAG, 100 DCRA, 100 DLSH, Expert Lairshaper (Chaos-04)
No, try not! Do or do not, there is no try. - Yoda
If the enemy presents an opportunity, take advantage of it - Sun Tzu
Having problems with my right to speak? Report me or click here *Ignore Seranthor*
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