Feedback about school: Dragon Lairshaping

[JDavidC]

Darn it, forgot about blasted alloyed metals, btw, what on earth is mithril an alloy of? I spotted 300 'easy' and 'hard' units that require alloyed metals, so that will add 150 'easy' and 'hard' biped construction units (of the type that do not require alloyed metals). Dragons don't seem to have to deal with alloyed metals for that structure at least.

Seranthor, I'm going to have to believe TG over horizons.gamersinfo.net, but are the OTHER things they've listed on that site actually correct?

Now, to fix the requirements for the t4 guild hall, it's 126,750 + 150 * 2 * 15 + 150 * 2 * 20 = 137,250

For dragons it's still 236,600.

Now for bulk/rec for both....

T4 dragon hall = 28,800/236,600 = 0.1217
T4 guild hall = 18,750/137,250 = 0.1366

Sooo... bipeds get a slight edge, but a t4 dragon hall probably outdoes the guild hall in terms of looks. It seems like neither side is really getting the shaft here. If ssylva is reading this, both sides are about the same when it comes to resources vs bulk.

[Seranthor]

Dragonaide, tell us again what exactly you've built. A few of us are dying to know. Unlike you, I AM building my lair and making great strides toward its completion. You on the other hand have done more [:'(] than anyone I've seen.

I'm not having issues with biped structures, I AM having issues with the millions of tears flowing here for percieved imbalances. Your contention that higher tier dragon structures are worthless is laughable, and given that you have no visible experience with them I question your qualifications to make such an obviously baselessclaim. Also, I've been asked about your qualifications to speak to biped construction, however, I dont have the answer so I'll just ask you bluntly, do you even have a ped that has built anything for themself?

Tents you say? your joking right? Cant get the trailer park out of the dragon can we?

You say, leave you to 'fight' to have better storage? how do you qualify 'better'? more stacks? more bulk? Inquiring minds want to know.

[ssylva]

Actually by comparing tier 5 biped with tier 4 dragon and still coming out with smaller numbers of easier to make resources than the dragon kind of makes my point. Even at tier 5 the dragon ends up using 1.282 times as many materials as the biped and the biped construction is LOADS easier... At tier 4 the ratio is even worse.

If your complaint is that the storage on biped guildhalls is too low, I am all for raising the storage on such to be on par with the dragon numbers... Dragons really dont make more than one hall(and even then you could do a lair) for storage -- they make storages for storage... You make halls to sit in -- for the eye candy and a place to live.

That tier 5 hall you are talking about takes a footprint of 27 squares... You could do a LOT better as a dragon (for the same work)if you dont care about looks with a bunch of tier 1 silos and a tier 2 lair.

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The attempt to make a dragon hall has made a number of dragons quit laircrafting or the game alltogether... It is a soulcrushing experience.

[Seranthor]

Actually by comparing tier 5 biped with tier 4 dragon and still coming out with smaller numbers of easier to make resources than the dragon kind of makes my point. Even at tier 5 the dragon ends up using 1.282 times as many materials as the biped and the biped construction is LOADS easier... At tier 4 the ratio is even worse.

Easier you say?... go make me 1200 yew braces and 400 ironsilk tapestries then tell me how easy it was... :)

If your complaint is that the storage on biped guildhalls is too low

Not my complaint, its the myopic viewpoints of greedy dragons that refuse to see the entire context of the situation.

Dragons really dont make more than one hall(and even then you could do a lair) for storage -- they make storages for storage...

Really?

That tier 5 hall you are talking about takes a footprint of 27 squares

I know, I built one.

You could do a LOT better as a dragon (for the same work)if you dont care about looks with a bunch of tier 1 silos and a tier 2 lair.

I'm sorry, no trailer trash Ken in my dragon.

The attempt to make a dragon hall has made a number of dragons quit laircrafting or the game alltogether... It is a soulcrushing experience.

I'm sorry to hear that, its not for the weak of heart or mind, I've built 2 solo, and I'm no worse for the experience, in fact I'm empridened with the knowledge that I've accomplished something like that.

[Dragoniade]

Dragonaide, tell us again what exactly you've built. A few of us are dying to know. Unlike you, I AM building my lair and making great strides toward its completion. You on the other hand have done more [img]/Web//emoticons/emotion-9.gif[/img] than anyone I've seen.

I am working on MY lair. Contrarely to some people, I got a job and don't spend 10 hours a day leveling 5 toons. So my time is precious and I don't like to work for nothing.
You may brag about your levels, but it look like I don't blindly level my toons without thinking if the stuff I do is right or wrong.

So stop bitching at people who have a life and less free time for horizons because you want to be the King of the Hill of everything. You call other selfish, but just look at yourself, puting sticks in the wheels of other players.

[Dragoniade]

That tier 5 hall you are talking about takes a footprint of 27 squares... You could do a LOT better as a dragon (for the same work)if you dont care about looks with a bunch of tier 1 silos and a tier 2 lair.

---

The attempt to make a dragon hall has made a number of dragons quit laircrafting or the game alltogether... It is a soulcrushing experience.

So true. Lairshaping was made way too tedious for the reward. You wait 2 months only to have 1 usefull storage structure to pop up. But it seem some people try to canter the game for themselves. They have no live outside the game and would rather be the high master of everything in game, badmouthing the other player who try to have some fun.

I'm glad to see though that some dragon actually see the reality behind the storage issue, not some powerleveled dragon trying to make dragons always sub-par to their multi-leveled biped.

Building a 'Hall Farm' is definitly NOT an option for dragons. They complain they don't want Tents farm or house farm, yet they suggest the same for dragon. That's quite a stupid logic.

And who is going to spend all their time building 6 Halls? 1 single hall already is tedious and boring. Anyone thinking of building 4-6 halls is a sadomasochist.

[Seranthor]

bitching?, no not even close, King of the Hill, hardly? Selfish?, you, you bet. Putting stick in the wheels of other players? How dare you, I am presenting honest facts, both for and against your alleged claims, you dont have the intellectual honesty to do that however. IF you would present the facts, both sides, fairly and honestly and let the folks determine for themselves whether changes were needed then ** I ** might not have anything to say. But your attempts to cherry pick the facts and use those to defend your indefensible position is shameful, YOU are undermining the dragonkin abilty to get lair structures reviewed, your half-thought out idea, your faked numbers and your general cluelessness HURT the dragons. Its my opinion, and becoming the opinion of many others that the best things you can do for dragons and their lairshaping 'plight' is to hire someone to break all your fingers and staple your mouth shut.

IF I am guilty of 'bragging' about anything its about accomplishing things that you insinuate that cant be done. So in the words of a dear friend of mine. Bugger off.

As far as your allegations that I dont know what I'm doing and I dont understand the plight of dragons then your as clueless as many are starting to realize you are. If your even remotely suggesting I was powerleveled I suggest you prove it, and IF you can find someone that can substantiate a claim that they powerleveled me,I'll build your lair for you. If you cant prove it I suggest very strongly that you revisit your slanderous comments, purge them, and then remain silent for the rest of your time in this game.

The next time you chose to attack me personally expect to get it back in spades, lass.

[Dragoniade]

The next time you chose to attack me personally expect to get it back in spades, lass.

I suggest you follow your own advice. Especially when you name called everyone on that thread. Mister 'I know it all and everyone's else are wrong'. Before claiming my number are wrong, PROOVE US THAT THEY ARE WRONG.

You're too lazy to even double check my number. All you do is whine that we whine. You are just a selfish kid who fear that what we ask are going to spoil YOUR gameplay.

That's going to be my last reply on that tread to you. Unless you can actually proove that my number are wrong, shut up and start insulting the other dragons. At least 'I' can back up my number. So far, all you managed to add was insult to everyone here and singing "lalala I don't hear you".

Get a clue already.

[JDavidC]

Whoa.... NOBODY said you have to construct your entire lair by yourself. Do you see all bipeds doing ALL the work on the plots by theirselves? Do those guild halls look like something a team of bipeds would work on, or just one? Most of the time, it will probably be a team.

Lairshaping is NO different from biped construction in this regard. A hall is the biped equivalent of a guild hall, a LARGE COMMUNITY STRUCTURE, you can't expect something on THAT sort of scale to be anywhere near as easy to build as a silo. Plus, dragon halls lookMUCH better than biped guild halls (<3 the pedestal for you to sit on). MANY dragons would want to build their lair for looks, never mind just having an all-in-one resource processing/item construction lair.

Does the thought of doing all the construction work yourself make you want to scream? Hire other dragons to help you (seeing as biped construction units may be around 1-2s, but dragon units can be 2-4 times more difficult to make, you'll need to pay a lot more per unit, but remember you still have less units than bipeds, so it should add up to roughly the same amount of $ if you want to hire other dragons to work on your lair). Want to build the lair yourself, but not grind the resources? Hire people to get resources for you, or grab them off the connie. While you go out making $ to pay them by farming uber enemies (whichshould be a piece of cake for a lvl 100 dragon adventurer), they can be helping to supply you and everybody wins.I made more than enough money to buy my own lair, get most of the vault upgrades and some nice equipment just by putting massive amounts of tier 2 faceted tricut gems on the Dralk consigner on the Chaos server at 120 cp each. You need to think about how bipeds can get help with construction, same thing applies to dragons (plus dragons have quite a lot more mobility I might add). Plus, it kinda helps the economy for dragons like me looking to make money (here's another thing, if you have more hoard than you can shake a stick at, you can also offer to pay dragons in hoard, bipeds wouldn't be as interested as they have no use for hoard themselves).

Remember, lairshaping does NOT have to be a solo grind, think about how bipeds would do things. If you want to build very large structures by yourself, it's gonna be a VERY long grind regardless of whether you're a dragon or a biped. It's mad how I see a fair amount of biped construction jobs advertised, but almost none for lairs.

The money I've made has also been VERY useful in getting me hoard. I racked up about 1.5 million hoardvery quickly using the money as well. As a lvl 52 dragon adventurer with about 1.94-1.95m hoard, I think I'm sorted for hoard for a while to come.

I think what really needs to be done is to introduce construction tutorials beyond building the units, but tricks of the trade in getting help, putting money on unfinished buildings etc. I'm surprised that I haven't encountered anything like this in lairshaping. We kinda need a tutorial otherwise newbies to construction are going to come in complaining when they don't know about a lot of things.

[Dragoniade]

Whoa.... NOBODY said you have to construct your entire lair by yourself. Do you see all bipeds doing ALL the work on the plots by theirselves? Do those guild halls look like something a team of bipeds would work on, or just one? Most of the time, it will probably be a team.

Lairshaping is NO different from biped construction in this regard. A hall is the biped equivalent of a guild hall, a LARGE COMMUNITY STRUCTURE, you can't expect something on THAT sort of scale to be anywhere near as easy to build as a silo. Plus, dragon halls lookMUCH better than biped guild halls (<3 the pedestal for you to sit on). MANY dragons would want to build their lair for looks, never mind just having an all-in-one resource processing/item construction lair.

I'm working alone on my lair. Don't forget that lairs got released for everybody at the same time. So everyone is busy working on their lairs. The only exception is when I got extra on a batch, I apply those on a guildy's lair, and vice-versa. Otherwise, not a lot of dragon are available.

Lairs are broken in that way: the only storage ressource are 'community' structures. How can you expect dragon to get proper storage quickly without begging for help?

THe difference with dragon and biped when it come to construction is this.
For biped, since you got multiple schools to work, you share the work. One do Carpentry, another do masonery, one do fitting and so on. One can concentrate on their work and balance the load. You only level 1-2 schools and share the work.

With dragon, everyone can do everything. So why would someone work on my lair when he got a lair to build? If he help me, I'll get a lair sooner, but he wills get his later. If I help him, well, it's the oposite. In the end, we both end up getting our lairs at the same time.

Until Tulga introduce MORE storage option, storage on lairs are going to remain sub-par because the only structure are 'community' structure.

[Seranthor]

you've already proved your numbers wrong, lass... show me someone thats made a thornwood board @ optimal, show me someone thats made admantiumbars @optimal, show me someone thats made travertine bricks @ optimal. You cant dismiss the obvious intent to slant the numbers, have you even ever attempted to make an admantium bar? an imbued adamantium bar perhaps?

I shouldn't have to check your numbers, you know they are cooked, we know they are, doesn't take a rocket scientist or a ******** artist to know that. There you go with the selfish word, it IS selfish on your part to want something your not entitled to. No, your unfinished lair doesn't affect my gameplay at all. Kid you say?, I'd venture to say that you truly dont know me at all if your throwing that word around.I've not 'insulted' anyone. I've saved that for 'special' people. So you say you can back up your numbers, funny when I ask you to the only thing that gets 'backed up' is the hair on the back of your neck prior to your next personal attack. So its time to put up or shut up as you so artfully want to phrase it

I have many clues, it appears your short quite a few, I'm happy to share.

Want to see what a real tearless lair looks like lass, just come on down, I'll be happy to show you around.

[Dragoniade]

you've already proved your numbers wrong, lass... show me someone thats made a thornwood board @ optimal, show me someone thats made admantiumbars @optimal, show me someone thats made travertine bricks @ optimal. You cant dismiss the obvious intent to slant the numbers, have you even ever attempted to make an admantium bar? an imbued adamantium bar perhaps?

And you miss totally the point, yet AGAIN... Sorry blind biped, but you're either totally blind, or you won't admit you're wrong.

My number are for optimal YES. I never claimed other wise. But it doesn't take a genius (which you definitly aren't) to double, triple, quadruple those number for YOUR skill level.
But no matter which level you are, the BASE REQUIREMENT ARE STILL THE SAME DIMWIT.

Keep dismissing that simple fact, and keep looking like a total idiot. That's what happen when they leave people out of school without the math skill. They can't multiply a number by 3 and they just call other stupid.

My number are right, thanks to proving it to me by saying you're not optimal. Yet again, you fail... miserably.

[Seranthor]

you mean its IMPOSSIBLE for anyone, biped, or dragon to reach optimal on travertine, adamantium or thornwood, so why in the world would you want to offer up 'optimal' numbers as the basis of your comparison? Your right it doesn't take a genius to see that that comparison isn't worth the pixels used to create it.

[JDavidC]

The point, Dragoniade, is, the table at optimal only provides useful information at a time when people CAN get optimal on those resources. You CANNOT use those figures to construct an argument at tiers that nobody can get optimal at. It's not THAT hard to change the table, you just need to find out the minimal amounts of raw resources for each (note Seranthor showed you can get 2:1 on t6 dragon only resources, due to a 1330 skill compared to 1600 skill for optimal). Put the table into a spreadsheet, set up the formulae accordingly, and adjust the amount of raw resources needed. Bingo, you have your new tables without having to do any calculations yourself. You can multiply numbers by 2, 3, or 4, but you'd need to multiply resource requirements by different numbers, depending on how far dragons and bipeds can get in skill level. Without THIS information, your table will not be able to show what happens when things are not optimal (as is the case). Putting in the figures for optimal means the table will NOT accurately reflect how much work either side has to do. However, very few people use t6 storage as biped or dragon, so it may be a moot point regardless.

[imported_Ssilmath]

It really is a moot point. Few if any T6 silos that are planned by anyone get finished, the majority I ever saw complete were 2 and 4...Is there a hug discrepancy there? I don't know, I've never worked on a lair, never seen one, so I won't comment on that...

[Dragoniade]

The point, Dragoniade, is, the table at optimal only provides useful information at a time when people CAN get optimal on those resources. You CANNOT use those figures to construct an argument at tiers that nobody can get optimal at. It's not THAT hard to change the table, you just need to find out the minimal amounts of raw resources for each (note Seranthor showed you can get 2:1 on t6 dragon only resources, due to a 1330 skill compared to 1600 skill for optimal). Put the table into a spreadsheet, set up the formulae accordingly, and adjust the amount of raw resources needed. Bingo, you have your new tables without having to do any calculations yourself. You can multiply numbers by 2, 3, or 4, but you'd need to multiply resource requirements by different numbers, depending on how far dragons and bipeds can get in skill level. Without THIS information, your table will not be able to show what happens when things are not optimal (as is the case). Putting in the figures for optimal means the table will NOT accurately reflect how much work either side has to do. However, very few people use t6 storage as biped or dragon, so it may be a moot point regardless.

The point is, the arguement is still valid. The table were showing the relation between a plot silo and a dragon storage room. What would have been the point of listing EVERY possible requirement for every tier? There were none.

I was pointing out the basic requirement for a building. How you get there (by transmutation, by gathering without buff, by gathering with buff) is out of the current issue.

And I find it stupid to have some dragon here argueing that my number are wrong because he can't process that ressource with those number. And guess what, Tulga must be wrong, because that's those number they're displaying. All their comparaison are made at optimal.

Why should I do it differently? I cannot predict every level, every skill of every player. I don't know your transmuting skills, I don't know your scales set. I don't know your quarrying skills.

You want to compare, you start with the "basic number". But some baby here will just whine that other's numbers are wrong because they win the donkey hat in math class.

And for your information, EVERY player cannot work T5 at optimal; they are going to require the same amount between them. So why argue that the relative number are wrong, when the aren't?

[JDavidC]

You can't compare optimal numbers when nobody can get there. If you want tocompare, thentry this: Assume thatbipeds that are lvl 100 in all crafts (which in itself would be a mean feat), and the same for dragons, and what they can do with the teched equipment best suited for each job. Seranthor's point is that the numbers are going to be quite different across the board. Ask a biped the best they can do on raw resource requirements for each thing, same with dragons (Seranthor has lvl 100 across the board in ALL crafts except CNF). The thing is, lvl 100 bipeds vs lvl 100 dragons at each type of resource will be different. The dragon only resources are the only case where anyone gets 2:1 (like Seranthor said). If EVERYONE has problems with t5 and t6, you need your numbers changed across the board to reflect that, because dragons have the advantage in the area I mentioned, bipeds get advantages on the other resources. You may end up with a different number at the end for effort required. However, you may be better doing the comparison for t4 silos, as VERY few people go beyond that.

[Seranthor]

Leave it alone JDavidC, You know from your own experiences who's presenting all the facts and who's not. Some folks are convinced of their ultimate superiourity despite thosee facts. Let them continue to argue the 'basics' and 'relatives' of the matter instead of the cold hard facts.

[Adwene Blightstalker]

Dragonaide, just take it easy, Ser won't change his mind when he thinks he is right :)

All of his bragging about how much he has done solo is great. He doesn't mention that he plays 2 computers so even if he is doing it himself, he can do it 1.5x faster (or more) than a dragon without a 2nd account and a 100 crafter helping him, both with the lvl 100 disks, full biped buffs ect ect.

I know how much help having the 2nd computer can be, when i can wrestle my husbands from him I can get a lot more done for those couple of hours.

[JDavidC]

Dragonaide, just take it easy, Ser won't change his mind when he thinks he is right [img]/Web/emoticons/emotion-1.gif[/img]

All of his bragging about how much he has done solo is great. He doesn't mention that he plays 2 computers so even if he is doing it himself, he can do it 1.5x faster (or more) than a dragon without a 2nd account and a 100 crafter helping him, both with the lvl 100 disks, full biped buffs ect ect.

I know how much help having the 2nd computer can be, when i can wrestle my husbands from him I can get a lot more done for those couple of hours.

I really hate to have to step in and say this, but Seranthor told me about using 2 computers as well, and he said it was a 'Godsend' in lairshaping. [:|]